Samsung F4500 plasma bargain for 480p sources

[Josh128]

Xan, I believe you are mistaken in taking what I have posted to mean that this set would look anything like a BVM with 240p or a PC monitor in 640x480-- I was comparing the image to other large HDTV CRTs in saying it has a similar picture.

Im failing to see though, how its 240p looks anything like that Trinitron picture you posted. I havent blown up 240p photos from it, but Im fairly certain it shows no such scanlines in 240p as in either picture you posted there.

[Xan]

It doesn't look identical obviously, but the coarse aperture grille on the consumer set can be generally compared with the screendoor effect on the Samsung. Whereas on the PVM (or high-res PC CRT if you will) the grille is virtually invisible. Disregarding CRT-specific attributes which the PVM still has, like lack of scaling, bloom etc. (which make it excellent), you could really put the PVM in a group with a high-res LCD with emulated scanlines. The other extreme then would be the Samsung, PGM and low-end TVs, which all share a softer and coarser image.

To clarify this further, for 240p signals a lot of consumer CRTs barely show scanlines at all (in my experience). There is a hint of it on that FD Trinitron I used as an example there, but then I also used a cheap Philips for years which showed ZERO of that effect.

I did run RE4 in 480p on the PS2, didn't like the result much and I'm not as sure myself why, the jaggies maybe seemed more apparent compared to the Wii. Also the PS2 has issues with lack of mipmapping in a lot of games, causing all of that noise on far away textures, I actually think running it on a 480i CRT can help to smoothen that a little bit. Really something to consider...

[Ed Oscuro]

Trinitron only will have a grille in one direction...the 720p Samsung has it in both directions.

RE brighter blacks - maybe I saw this on a set at Sears, but the sets at Best Buy (f4500 and f5300) didn't look bright in the blacks to me.

[andykara2003]

On my NEC at 31Khz the shadow mask is even horizontally & vertically. The resulting 'grid' gives a subtle texture to the graphics that enhances them.

That's also what the Samsung's screen door seems to be doing. I just wonder if it's as subtle and effective as the NEC at this. The SDE on this image is really apparent though: http://i.imgur.com/yGmEjhT.jpg

It looks quite harsh/unsubtle especially in the light areas. I guess this might well be much less noticeable/distracting in person? I wish I could check one out but these are getting rare in the UK...

On the other hand everyone who has one here seems really happy with it so It's likely not so much of an issue - maybe the photo is putting it in a particularly harsh light.

The lag is the main aspect that is putting me off ATM. Adventure style games will be OK but games like Mario Tennis on the 'cube need precise timing.

[Josh128]

Heres a few more shots I took, with some 240p SOTN at the bottom few. Included some closeups for comparison sake...








http://i.imgur.com/euRQDMR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q4MGyew.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/CiKvR8d.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3hAS6BC.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/NfayLnb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/DEeDA1W.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/wRmKegS.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/hRw0z4c.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/iMGiBou.jpg

[Xan]

It looks quite harsh/unsubtle especially in the light areas. I guess this might well be much less noticeable/distracting in person? I wish I could check one out but these are getting rare in the UK...

If you sit half a meter away from the screen, this is about the SDE that you get. Of course I don't ever sit that close while gaming... from my typical distance it could still be argued that the SDE is a subtle effect that does make the image softer, but it's not an effect that is visible as such, at all. Of course the image is also brighter and better in real than what's seen on the photo.

@Josh: the ringing in those Alucard shots is quite obvious, again. Incidentally I remembered about an old shot from my Philips, which demonstrates my point about that TV not showing the "scanline" effect at all:

http://i.imgur.com/Yc3KZsG.jpg

[andykara2003]

Cheers Xan, that clears it up quite a bit

[Josh128]

Trinitron only will have a grille in one direction...the 720p Samsung has it in both directions.

RE brighter blacks - maybe I saw this on a set at Sears, but the sets at Best Buy (f4500 and f5300) didn't look bright in the blacks to me.

Ed, not exactly sure what you are referring to here but, in any case, when properly set up these Samsung models have super-dark blacks and zero-bleed contrast comparable to even high end plasmas. Against an LCD there is no comparison.

The only way you would see any luminance from the blacks would be if you were in a pitch black room, or a very bright room, in which the only luminance you see would be the phosphors reflecting outside light.

[Josh128]

It looks quite harsh/unsubtle especially in the light areas. I guess this might well be much less noticeable/distracting in person? I wish I could check one out but these are getting rare in the UK...

If you sit half a meter away from the screen, this is about the SDE that you get. Of course I don't ever sit that close while gaming... from my typical distance it could still be argued that the SDE is a subtle effect that does make the image softer, but it's not an effect that is visible as such, at all. Of course the image is also brighter and better in real than what's seen on the photo.

@Josh: the ringing in those Alucard shots is quite obvious, again. Incidentally I remembered about an old shot from my Philips, which demonstrates my point about that TV not showing the "scanline" effect at all:

http://i.imgur.com/Yc3KZsG.jpg

Again, I much prefer the crisp look at this level of sharpness vs. the increased blur of anything under 45.

About the CRT comparison, I dont think its quite fair to compare the SDE of this set to the aperture grille of that CRT -- just by blowing up the images we both posted, the low end CRT of yours resolves the width of Alucard in just 29 vertical columns of pixels, while the F4500 resolves him with 49. The dot pitch of the Samsung is quite a bit finer than the set you showed in the picture.

Pictures of course can be deceiving, and some of the Zelda photos I posted look very harsh/have a rainbow effect going on, those photos didnt come out too well. The Sonic and the SOTN photos are fairly representative though.

As for Andy, as far as to what SDE to expect at what distance-- I would say the pic below, if viewed on a 19" PC CRT monitor at 1024x768 (without zooming in) would be indicative of the SDE you would see on the 51" from about 2feet away.

http://i.imgur.com/iMGiBou.jpg

[22point8]

Settled on sharpness 20 even on scart

[Josh128]

Some fine looking 240p photos there 22point8, it appears we have the same MD games! (I love Bloodlines) The images in those photos look similar in sharpness to what Im running-- is it the set sharpening or the scaler? Are you using a Framemeister?

[andykara2003]

Thanks guys, very much appreciated

[22point8]

Thats RGB Scart from a Wii, don't have any scalers. To me sharpness 0 was causing a slight blur effect where in between 2 letters there would be some extra pixels sort of like the things you'd see with to much sharpness but a blur instead, its hard to explain but theres my attempt.

Might try to build a vga to scart cable for the vga output on my internal vga modded Dreamcast, so I can use the CSY-2100 (now that I know it can do 480p from a ps2 RGB sync on green) seeing as it will cost me nothing to find out.

Some interesting observations:

Never knew the yellow throw guy in streets of rage had a face.
Couldn't read those posters before, I guess it says 'motor oil'
In sonic 2 a high speed spindash you can see sonic maintain his spikey shape throughout (must be a plasma motion thing).

[Josh128]

Thats RGB Scart from a Wii, don't have any scalers. To me sharpness 0 was causing a slight blur effect where in between 2 letters there would be some extra pixels sort of like the things you'd see with to much sharpness but a blur instead, its hard to explain but theres my attempt.

Might try to build a vga to scart cable for the vga output on my internal vga modded Dreamcast, so I can use the CSY-2100 (now that I know it can do 480p from a ps2 RGB sync on green) seeing as it will cost me nothing to find out.

So you think the 480p would work over the CSY-2100? Would love to hear if that works out, and what would be needed to wire it. Let me know.

[22point8]

Thats RGB Scart from a Wii, don't have any scalers. To me sharpness 0 was causing a slight blur effect where in between 2 letters there would be some extra pixels sort of like the things you'd see with to much sharpness but a blur instead, its hard to explain but theres my attempt.

Might try to build a vga to scart cable for the vga output on my internal vga modded Dreamcast, so I can use the CSY-2100 (now that I know it can do 480p from a ps2 RGB sync on green) seeing as it will cost me nothing to find out.

So you think the 480p would work over the CSY-2100? Would love to hear if that works out, and what would be needed to wire it. Let me know.

Well my Outrun 2006 and Guilty Gear XX Accent Core+ shots were 480p through scart (ps2 goes into SOG mode) into CSY-2100G, this one

[Ed Oscuro]

Trinitron only will have a grille in one direction...the 720p Samsung has it in both directions.

RE brighter blacks - maybe I saw this on a set at Sears, but the sets at Best Buy (f4500 and f5300) didn't look bright in the blacks to me.

Ed, not exactly sure what you are referring to here but, in any case, when properly set up these Samsung models have super-dark blacks and zero-bleed contrast comparable to even high end plasmas. Against an LCD there is no comparison.

Think you misread my post, there.

[Jack Burton]

22point8: you seriously made me want try out this set in my basement with those awesome genny/mega drive shots. Best buy has that nice 14 day return policy. Hmmmmmmmmm.

[Einzelherz]

Josh, what component cables are you using on your Wii?

The ones in the links below. The apparent build quality of them is very high, they fit VERY tight on the component jacks, and most of all they worked magic with the creeping ghost lines and artifacts. They also improved the overall PQ over the cheap cables (actually seemed to sharpen the image slightly, most likely because the bad cables were degrading the signal). I think I have the 6' cables, the 8' may be fine too, but the shorter the better, IMO.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wii-6ft-Compone ... 3f42d8f4c7

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rocketfish-8-FT ... 43d4ce348f

Now, I have no idea if they are any better than the official Nintendo cables, but confident they are AT LEAST on par with them.

Stay away from the ones below, it was a cheap set similar or identical to these that gave me the issues. Mine looked identical to these, but were white, not gray.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Definition ... 3cedc18869

FWIW I bought some new Rocketfish Wii component cables and I can't notice a difference from my Energizer multi system set. I'll probably end up cannibalizing them if someone ever sorts out a simple add-on for the GCN to send component through the Multi-AV.

[Josh128]

FWIW I bought some new Rocketfish Wii component cables and I can't notice a difference from my Energizer multi system set. I'll probably end up cannibalizing them if someone ever sorts out a simple add-on for the GCN to send component through the Multi-AV.

Sorry to hear that mate, I guess it was a bit of a long shot.

[Xan]

Someone on Amazon says that those cables have slightly off colors compared to the original Nintendo ones (which I have). It's interesting that they got the original Nintendo seal though, seems rare for third party AV cables.

[Josh128]

Someone on Amazon says that those cables have slightly off colors compared to the original Nintendo ones (which I have). It's interesting that they got the original Nintendo seal though, seems rare for third party AV cables.

I would be highly suspect of that statement-- they are a very high build quality with extremely tight fitting connections, which cured several problems I had with a cheap cable.

Also, I posted some compelling comparision shots vs. the GC, using the Rocketfish cable earlier-- they are almost indistinguishable, and I'd be willing to bet any slight color/brightness differences are down to the consoles themselves. I can see a cable causing interference/noise induction (as I had with the cheap cables), but to cause a color difference while still offering a crystal clear picture, I dont understand how that could even be possible.

Examine again these FZero GC vs Wii 480p Widescreen shots, the GC is on the right, Wii on the left. Even being different consoles, they are pretty darn close in color.


[/quote]

[darkoutsider]

Josh thanks for bringing this set to our attention! I am just starting to get into gaming on my Wii/PS2 and the timing couldn't be better that you found this TV. Just the fact that the TV is so cheap it made it a no brainer for me.

Now I was thinking of running my Wii through the XRGB Mini vi D-Terminal, unless you think it will have better results straight to the TV via component. Josh what settings on the TV are your go to ones for Wii play?

[Josh128]

Might try to build a vga to scart cable for the vga output on my internal vga modded Dreamcast, so I can use the CSY-2100 (now that I know it can do 480p from a ps2 RGB sync on green) seeing as it will cost me nothing to find out.


Well my Outrun 2006 and Guilty Gear XX Accent Core+ shots were 480p through scart (ps2 goes into SOG mode) into CSY-2100G, this one

Wonder if this TORO box will do the trick for DC? DC>TORO SCART 31KHz>CSY-2100 > F4500 plasma...

http://www.beharbros.com/#!toro/cfom

Also saw a circuit diagram for a sync converter below:

http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/vga2rgbs.html

Also saw this el Cheapo VGA to Component Monoprice converter-- now that looks tempting if it really works-- http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=1 ... 1&format=2

[Fudoh]

Well, since 22point8 confirmed that the transcoder is actually fine with 480p, the Toro with RGBs output for 31khz should work as well. You could get a VGA to HDMI converter instead though. Lagfree, less expensive and you save an input.

[Josh128]

Well, since 22point8 confirmed that the transcoder is actually fine with 480p, the Toro with RGBs output for 31khz should work as well. You could get a VGA to HDMI converter instead though. Lagfree, less expensive and you save an input.

Are the VGA to HDMI converters that good? I know some of the composite to HDMI converters add way to much lag. I saw this cheap monoprice converter, for $40 USD, almost seems too good to be true.

If a VGA to HDMI converter is what you recommend for Dreamcast, which one? Is this Ebay special any good?

[Fudoh]

Composite to HDMI requires at least deinterlacing, so yes, there's lag. You don't want that.

The Monoprice converter is a full scaler as well, so it adds lag as well. Again, nothing you want.

What you want a is a simple A/D converter box. 480p in, 480p out. No deinterlacing, no processing, no scaling and no lag. Quality is usually excellent. I've certainly tried a dozen different ones.

I have the eBay one. Works fine, excellent quality. On the DC it depends a little bit on the VGA box you're using. Some output too high signal levels which can throw the converter off, especially with the white boot screen.

[Josh128]

Thanks Fudoh.

Here are some N64 shots. I find this set plays quite nicely with N64-- the gentle softening of 240p mode makes the 64 look much more natural than other HD sets Ive tried it on. Again, this is raw 240p from an RGB to YUV converter. Apologize for the unfocused shots-- I have very little option to select shutter speed, its very hit and miss. Yes, sharpness is still at 75.

[andykara2003]

Incidentally I remembered about an old shot from my Philips, which demonstrates my point about that TV not showing the "scanline" effect at all:

http://i.imgur.com/Yc3KZsG.jpg

Hey Xan - out of interest, do you remember the size of this CRT? In my experience, the only decent CRT TV that has a shadow mask that looks like that (no scanlines) is a 21" or under set but I'd be very interested to know if there are exceptions..

[Jack Burton]

Hey Josh or anyone else who can help. I'm still mulling over the loss of detail fro 1080p sources on the 4500 series. How does the image of a 240p or 480p source on one of these compare to say the same source run through an xrgb to thr 5300 series? I'm running a 1080p sammy lcd with an xrgb and fake scanlines. I've gotten it to a point where it looked as good as my 32" wega standard res crt.

[Josh128]

Hey Josh or anyone else who can help. I'm still mulling over the loss of detail fro 1080p sources on the 4500 series. How does the image of a 240p or 480p source on one of these compare to say the same source run through an xrgb to thr 5300 series? I'm running a 1080p sammy lcd with an xrgb and fake scanlines. I've gotten it to a point where it looked as good as my 32" wega standard res crt.

Ive not seen what the xrgb can do with the 5300s with 480p sources (not even pictures on the net for that matter), but I assume what it does with 240p, I can do with PC and emulated scanlines. I may attempt to take some comparison shots of console raw 240p on the 4500 vs. emulated scanline 240p games from PC to the 5300 when I get some time.

Its a matter of personal taste, but I believe if you are looking for that BVM look you will prefer the XRGB and 5300 series for 240p games.

For 480p though, until I see it with my own eyes, I think the F4500 is king no matter what. The only way I would be able to create a comparison there would be to try the Dolphin emulator @ 640x480 with emulated scanlines on the 5300 to compare. I dare say though, at least for my eyes, its going to be very hard to top images like these from a real Wii:

http://i.imgur.com/TBRqtBp.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bQVxzj8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/7ernsNo.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HOa1Jhu.jpg