Why shmups are such a niche genre

[EinhanderZwei]

Teh Sims?

[Exarion]

World of Warcraft gets everything it does wrong. There is a market out there for hard games, just look at demon's souls, or etrian odyssey, or the shin megami tensei series, or anything localized by atlus. We just have to market shmups to those people

[replayme]

World of Warcraft gets everything it does wrong. There is a market out there for hard games, just look at demon's souls, or etrian odyssey, or the shin megami tensei series, or anything localized by atlus. We just have to market shmups to those people

yeah, all five of them...

[EPS21]

World of Warcraft gets everything it does wrong. There is a market out there for hard games, just look at demon's souls, or etrian odyssey, or the shin megami tensei series, or anything localized by atlus. We just have to market shmups to those people

That may be true if you replaced all those JRPG's atlus published with dodonpachi instead
I bet the majority of people who have spent thousands of hours in said rpg's would put down any shmup for being too hard, unless it shared the visual appeal of a jrpg and was easy (Deathsmiles might do well since it is true for both, much like mushifutari and novice/arrange mode).

[Ed Oscuro]

games aren't casual/hardcore
people are casual/hardcore

And, you know, there is no such thing as society. There are individual men and women, and there are families.

btw good job noticing that game forums are filled with same-thinking people who dislike change. That applies to all genres, by the way.

Next topic: Why are all birds in London pigeons?

You did make an interesting point with the Peggle achievements, but then again Raiden Fighters Aces rolled some in, too. Mainly classic style shooting games are limited in how much "extension" by achievements is tolerable because you don't spend a lot of down time in wandering through fields so the game can pop up quest and achievement notifications like most every other genre

[cul]

btw good job noticing that game forums are filled with same-thinking people who dislike change. That applies to all genres, by the way.

It's like with music production, sports, any kind of hobby forums. You have people talking on the internet, and you have the rest, who actually practice their stuff.

[BIL]

yeah, all five of them...

I thought it was you against the masses and their awful taste, a few pages back?

[NR777]

yeah, all five of them...

We're not talking about the amount of people who agree with you on this forum.

[TMR]

yeah, all five of them...

We're not talking about the amount of people who agree with you on this forum.

That's a fairly generous estimate... even some of the people who actually enjoy "Euroshmups" like Xenon 2 in a perverse way (like what i do) don't agree with him. =-)

[NR777]

yeah, all five of them...

We're not talking about the amount of people who agree with you on this forum.

That's a fairly generous estimate... even some of the people who actually enjoy "Euroshmups" like Xenon 2 in a perverse way (like what i do) don't agree with him. =-)

Well, sometimes you have to make special people feel special.

[replayme]

yeah! nice to know that people can hit the nail on the head. on that note: i retire from this thread.

although, do anticipate my comeback sometime soon...

[Taylor]

Can't wait.

[TMR]

yeah! nice to know that people can hit the nail on the head. on that note: i retire from this thread.

although, do anticipate my comeback sometime soon...

Please, don't feel there's any need to rush... after all, everything you reckon developers should do was tried two decades ago and didn't work then either. =-)

[Udderdude]

although, do anticipate my comeback sometime soon...

Spare us. You've already pretty much ruined it.

[Iori Branford]

Sloppy, barebone ports seem to be getting a free pass. In fact, in the late 90s when the standard gaming environment was shifting from arcade to home, the ports could've done more good than anything. Many people then might have gotten around short length, unsophisticated gameplay, high difficulty, unstylish visuals, and disconnect from reality if more home versions weren't such poor value for their prices.

Some ideas off the top of my head, none of which require changes to the core game:

• I like the idea of alternate stages, provided the length of one playthrough remains roughly the same.
• Training, and I don't mean stage practice. If a player is given some understanding of the game before beginning, he's more likely to do a decent job, which makes him more likely to keep playing. At the very least, an optional Stage 0 for learning the controls and score system. Separate exercises on scoring tactics and dodging common patterns (see Virtua Fighter 4 PS2 for reference) would be a plus.
• If nothing else, a progress penalty on top of the score reset for continuing. As smart porters like Konami realized, this doesn't get more simple and effective than restarting the stage. Why bitch at unskilled players clearing the game with more continues than points, when the ones in the best position to stop them would rather just squirt out a rebuild of arcade source code and collect their checks?

[gs68]

a progress penalty on top of the score reset for continuing

Metal Slug 3 Xbox version tried this. It totally worked out, especially with that ridonkulously long final stage.

[Herr Schatten]

unsophisticated gameplay [...] unstylish visuals [...] poor value for their prices.

Wha?

[Ed Oscuro]

unsophisticated gameplay [...] unstylish visuals [...] poor value for their prices.

Wha?

Obviously. A Jill Sandwich is gameplay sophistication par excellence.

[BIL]

Why bitch at unskilled players clearing the game with more continues than points, when the ones in the best position to stop them would rather just squirt out a rebuild of arcade source code and collect their checks?

We've already covered this. Games that stop / impede credit feeding get bitched about in the mainstream press too. And there's no guarantee anyone who'd "beat" DOJ in 30 minutes would stick around if stopped repeatedly at stage 2.

Obviously. A Jill Sandwich is gameplay sophistication par excellence.

When I unlocked Tuxedo Snake in MGS, the sophistication blew my mind and made me throw Raystorm under a bus. :[

[Obiwanshinobi]

World of Warcraft gets everything it does wrong. There is a market out there for hard games, just look at demon's souls, or etrian odyssey, or the shin megami tensei series, or anything localized by atlus. We just have to market shmups to those people

That may be true if you replaced all those JRPG's atlus published with dodonpachi instead
I bet the majority of people who have spent thousands of hours in said rpg's would put down any shmup for being too hard, unless it shared the visual appeal of a jrpg and was easy (Deathsmiles might do well since it is true for both, much like mushifutari and novice/arrange mode).

I doubt marketing a shmup to the majority of ANY mainstream genre fans could succeed. Forget about the majority. That said, the 2D shooty renaissance in my life begun when I grew tired of jRPGs. I still "play" them a lot, but games such as God Hand and Gradius V reminded me what real gaming is all about. I'd say shmups are exactly what a jRPGamer needs for the sake of pure gaming refreshment.
I don't believe in "hard" jRPGs, though. Implementing some kind of Russian roulette mechanics seems to be the only way to make them sort of hard. In DDS your party sometimes gets wiped out before they can move a finger and that's it - you have done nothing wrong, just drawn the shortest straw. Beating the last two bosses in DDS2 on hard took me days (because I refused to grind) and forced me to study the system acutely, and yet still felt a bit like a fluke. I guess any attempt to make a jRPG "hard" only gets you this far - you have to keep tossing a coin until you get heads n times in a row.
The hardship of competitive beat 'em ups is also questionable, because it is not uncommon for a button masher to defeat a skillful opponent (maybe not n times in a row, but still).
In shmups, however, your luck and your skill are one. To quote Hajime no Ippo: There is no such thing as lucky punch. This is the genre's selling point, if you ask me, and it comes from a jaded c/jRPG veteran.

[Exarion]

They've also tried making players unlock continues, but the reviewers complain about that as well. It seems like they complain about anything that doesn't have obvious fake depth to it (leveling up in demon's souls)

[Observer]

How about Crimzon Clover's idea of making you BUY the continues with your own skill by playing well and raking up as much point items as possible? And once you spend the continues, they are gone, so you have to keep buying them. Between unlocking and having a shop to purchase them, I pick the second option. Coupling this with the score reset and no replay (if available) saving should be good.

BUT...

People will bitch anyway. Too short, too hard, too 2D, too retro, too intense, too loli, too manly, too this, too that, tatoo, Tuthankamun, etc.

[Ebbo]

I really like the way Crimzon Clover handles continues. It encourages you to play well, since your score and point items are essentially tied together. And when you spend time collecting those items in order to buy more continues, you get better at the game and your need for continues decreases.

It's also okay if the amount of continues increases the more time you spend with the game, but usually the infinite credits unlock a bit too fast and it's sometimes hard to resist the temptation of using them.

[Otai]

To quote Hajime no Ippo: There is no such thing as lucky punch.

But there are lucky dodges. I do had a few times that I accidentally dodged bullets that I expected to hit. Gaming is a very subjective manner and depends on how a player "philosophize" it.

[Exarion]

I really like the way Crimzon Clover handles continues. It encourages you to play well, since your score and point items are essentially tied together. And when you spend time collecting those items in order to buy more continues, you get better at the game and your need for continues decreases.

It's also okay if the amount of continues increases the more time you spend with the game, but usually the infinite credits unlock a bit too fast and it's sometimes hard to resist the temptation of using them.

Ikaruga, the one shmup that did not get bashed, used this, freeplay after I think 8 hours of play. I'd say give the player credits based upon progress, at a rate of one continue per stage cleared, starting with 0. This would give a person 5 continues after clearing the game, and to unlock free play, they have to 1cc the game. Or we could put in a terrible story, make it an MMORPG, complete with timesinks and grinding, and watch as it gets praised because "The game’s developers did an excellent job porting the classic genre which was popularized back in 1980s and 1990s into the 21st century" and "deep skill customization" as well as because it "attempts to provoke and players will be challenged through various features" unlike normal shmups which "easily bore players because of repeated game-play patterns". I'm not ranting because Valkyrie Sky is getting tons of praise for the exact same things that get modern shmups bashed.

[Obiwanshinobi]

To quote Hajime no Ippo: There is no such thing as lucky punch.

But there are lucky dodges. I do had a few times that I accidentally dodged bullets that I expected to hit. Gaming is a very subjective manner and depends on how a player "philosophize" it.

When I dodge bullets I expected to hit, it's because I'm awesome like that (apparently better than I thought). When I suck at given game, it's because I'm not doing my best. Nothing subjective about it.

[orange]

I really like the way Crimzon Clover handles continues. It encourages you to play well

so do many other games, by erasing your score when you continue

[gs68]

I really like the way Crimzon Clover handles continues. It encourages you to play well

so do many other games, by erasing your score when you continue

But the same casual shmuppers who don't have a continue taboo usually don't care for score, so taking away their points is like taking meat away from a vegatarian.

Really, there is absolutely no way to implement continues in shmups of any variety. Make 'em infinite and the press and more naive gamers will mistake the game for being impossibly easy. The same people who'd say that would rather be forced to watch Sonic 2006's kissing scene over and over for 24 hours than have "only" 10 credits with which to "beat" a shooting game.

[Exarion]

I really like the way Crimzon Clover handles continues. It encourages you to play well

so do many other games, by erasing your score when you continue

But the same casual shmuppers who don't have a continue taboo usually don't care for score, so taking away their points is like taking meat away from a vegatarian.

Really, there is absolutely no way to implement continues in shmups of any variety. Make 'em infinite and the press and more naive gamers will mistake the game for being impossibly easy. The same people who'd say that would rather be forced to watch Sonic 2006's kissing scene over and over for 24 hours than have "only" 10 credits with which to "beat" a shooting game.

How about the final stage becomes inaccessible if the player continues, and when completing the penultimate stage, you instead get a joke ending that says "TRY PLAYING AGAIN WITHOUT CONTINUING"? Or something else that prevents people from thinking the game is over until they 1cc it? It might get rid of "this game is too short" complaints, but they're now starting to whine about "too hard", even when they get their infinite continues.

[BIL]

Psyvariar 2 does that. Last stage won't appear if you play badly.

Anyway, it's a circular question. Halt progress? "Wahh." Allow? "Wahh."

The real issue is appreciation of the game itself, and that's not something you can impose onto people. It can certainly be encouraged; I think the best way is to allow a reasonable number of credits, say three, and award another every hour. Gradius V does this. It won't magically cause people who wouldn't take a shooter seriously to do so (EGM review: "Just wait for free play to unlock LOL" <-- damn near convinced me to not buy the game, when new to this intimidating genre). But it does force you to make those credits last, while still allowing further progress over time. That can allow appreciation to take hold and grow (again, speaking from personal experience).

Shooters as they are now aren't going to suddenly appeal to a mass audience after minor tweaks. Too old-fashioned and reminiscent of unpaid work, for anyone who doesn't find the gameplay rewarding in itself. Personally it's not worth worrying about. There are more than enough quality shooters in existence right now. A couple more added to the backlog each year is fine. If the last devs standing go under, so be it. Back catalogs don't magically combust upon their developer's closure. Then we'd be fucked, as opposed to set for life regarding this hobby.