Ways to make shmups more appealing to existing fans.

[Icarus]

I'm serious too.

And you can keep your hands off Kasumi, she's mine. ^_-

Unless you want to take this outside?

[raiden]

the suicide concept has been implemented beautifully in Hitogata Happa, a doujin game which also features tate mode. What sets it apart from Raizing games for example, is the fact you get more lives overall, can even stock up between stages, but you also need to sacrifice more lives, because bosses can NOT be destroyed by regular attacks only, so you´re forced to overcome any anti-suicidal instincts, not only to score well, but to beat stage 1 already.

I´m also missing variety in current shmups and tend to look at games from the 80´s instead, but sure wouldn´t mind to see the best of both worlds combined. For example, another game with AI enemies besides Vulgus would be nice, maybe with a finer, non-broken score system. I like Terra Cresta´s concept of having power-ups attached to the ship, enlarging hitzone that way, but when these parts are hit, you don´t die but only lose the power-ups. It has been nicely redone in Tumiki Fighters, but I´m sure there´s still more that can be done with it.

Twinkle Star Sprites has been cloned a few times, but none of the clones do it justice. Heck, even XII Stag could be fun without the two incredibly boring beginning stages. The Twin Hawk concept of support planes is too good for just this one game. And another vote for Mars Matrix 2.

Danmaku games feel so predictable in a certain way. All the danger is coming from above, in the form of bullets. Old Capcom and Toaplan shmups had enemies coming from all sides, circling and diving in strange ways, forcing the player to stay more alert instead of just calmly dodging through tiny holes in the curtain. But some people called attacks from behind (for example) unfair, so they basically disappeared from everything past 2000.

What I don´t want is arena shooters. Look on PC and Xbox 360, there´s plenty of them already. As much as I like Geometry Wars, without a scrolling background, half the fun is gone already.

[iatneH]

Danmaku games feel so predictable in a certain way. All the danger is coming from above, in the form of bullets. Old Capcom and Toaplan shmups had enemies coming from all sides, circling and diving in strange ways, forcing the player to stay more alert instead of just calmly dodging through tiny holes in the curtain. But some people called attacks from behind (for example) unfair, so they basically disappeared from everything past 2000.

The capsule pattern of Ketsui's stage 2 boss, 2nd form totally WTF'd me up. Comes from the side and moves upwards.

[Twiddle]

the suicide concept has been implemented beautifully in Hitogata Happa, a doujin game which also features tate mode. What sets it apart from Raizing games for example, is the fact you get more lives overall, can even stock up between stages, but you also need to sacrifice more lives, because bosses can NOT be destroyed by regular attacks only, so you´re forced to overcome any anti-suicidal instincts, not only to score well, but to beat stage 1 already.

Hitogata Happa also has the problem of having only 3-4 useful characters out of the 12 or so available. Nice concept, but the execution could have been better if access to the true final boss didn't include you buying sets of 8-9 useless types of characters.

The Twin Hawk concept of support planes is too good for just this one game.

Raiden Fighters and the 194X series feature this. In fact, 1942 and 1943 predated that game.

What I don´t want is arena shooters. Look on PC and Xbox 360, there´s plenty of them already. As much as I like Geometry Wars, without a scrolling background, half the fun is gone already.

None of those games are anywhere near as refined as say, Sispri Gauntlet (latest revision) and Total Carnage, though.

Well, Total Carnage isn't really refined but it's one-creditable.

[IlMrm]

And you can keep your hands off Kasumi, she's mine. ^_-

The figure is nice. And I peeked underneath the dress.

[RoninBuddha]

Batsugun revival?

[sven666]

shmups dont appeal to mainstreamers period.. i recentlu held a small tournament here in sweden, games on display were: ketsui, progear, espgaluda, varth and raiden DX...

two games got the most play by miles, yeah you guessed it, raiden DX and varth.

new style shmups with purple lasers all over the place might make the people on these boards drool, but mainstreamers just dont like it.
all of my "casual gamer" friends just think its ridiculous when they see me play anything from cave or raizing...

[Turrican]

I just need another Twinbee.

fans

haha, clever.

Well, I disagree with most of the inputs given so far - which all tend to over-complex the shmup formula. I don't want chains in Gradius, nor cabalistic score-systems thanks.

My wanting another Twinbee is a choice in the lines of NSMB, if you want. A game that doesn't add anything new to the Mario formula but rather toys with the charms and strengths of the original idea.

Forgive me if this is an attempt to "turn this thread into the other one".

[Kiken]

shmups dont appeal to mainstreamers period.. i recentlu held a small tournament here in sweden, games on display were: ketsui, progear, espgaluda, varth and raiden DX...

Ummm... wrong thread.

[sven666]

shmups dont appeal to mainstreamers period.. i recentlu held a small tournament here in sweden, games on display were: ketsui, progear, espgaluda, varth and raiden DX...

Ummm... wrong thread.

lol yeah i just noticed

..i was just kidding.. err.. or something

[Randorama]

My wanting another Twinbee is a choice in the lines of NSMB, if you want. A game that doesn't add anything new to the Mario formula but rather toys with the charms and strengths of the original idea.

Let's try to save this post, doc!

Actually, a more balanced "Twin Bee Yahhoo!" (sic!) would be nice. The problem with Yahhoo and its scoring system was Konami slacking off. Getting all the bells on the yoko screen often ended in getting a random bullet on the teeth, the same engine done on Tate would fall under the " good idea implemented properly" category.


But that's a finesse for players

[raiden]

The Twin Hawk concept of support planes is too good for just this one game.

Raiden Fighters and the 194X series feature this. In fact, 1942 and 1943 predated that game.

The games you mentioned feature support planes, but not in the way Twin Hawk does. The kamikaze style attacks are one thing that sets Twin Hawk apart, the incredibly over-powered attack force combined with extreme vulnerability of having all planes out is another.

What I don´t want is arena shooters. Look on PC and Xbox 360, there´s plenty of them already. As much as I like Geometry Wars, without a scrolling background, half the fun is gone already.

None of those games are anywhere near as refined as say, Sispri Gauntlet (latest revision) and Total Carnage, though.
Well, Total Carnage isn't really refined but it's one-creditable.

So tell me - what makes an arena shooter refined or even one-creditable? Arena shooters don´t need stages - if they feature them, it´s kind of an afterthought just interrupting the action. Arena shooters also don´t need level design, of course they can have it, but it doesn´t make them any better. They don´t need an ending point, no forced game over, so no 1cc-possibility either. They are endless score games by nature, but the lack of structure is also what they´re lacking compared to scrolling shmups. It doesn´t really feel that different scoring 500.000 or 5.000.000 points in Geometry Wars, you just play a little longer, survive a little better, but the game essentially stays the same.

[Turrican]

Actually, a more balanced "Twin Bee Yahhoo!" (sic!) would be nice. The problem with Yahhoo and its scoring system was Konami slacking off. Getting all the bells on the yoko screen often ended in getting a random bullet on the teeth, the same engine done on Tate would fall under the " good idea implemented properly" category.

So, you basically are asking for a Yahho-! that uses the same screen ratio Detana!! used. I'm not sure that change alone would do the trick. Yahho-! has way too short stages for my tastes. I guess in my perspective the health bar and relatively slower pace of Pop'n was Twinbee nirvana. ^_^

But that's a finesse for players

Why? do you personally know anyone on this forum which isn't?

[Rob]

So tell me - what makes an arena shooter refined or even one-creditable? Arena shooters don´t need stages - if they feature them, it´s kind of an afterthought just interrupting the action. Arena shooters also don´t need level design, of course they can have it, but it doesn´t make them any better. They don´t need an ending point, no forced game over, so no 1cc-possibility either. They are endless score games by nature, but the lack of structure is also what they´re lacking compared to scrolling shmups. It doesn´t really feel that different scoring 500.000 or 5.000.000 points in Geometry Wars, you just play a little longer, survive a little better, but the game essentially stays the same.

Not what I had in mind by arena shooters. Have you played Cannon Spike? I'd want that with a little more level structure, less junk enemies, maybe a scoring system. It would not be endless, it would have distinctive bosses, and many of the common arcade shooter qualities.

[Twiddle]

So tell me - what makes an arena shooter refined or even one-creditable? Arena shooters don´t need stages - if they feature them, it´s kind of an afterthought just interrupting the action. Arena shooters also don´t need level design, of course they can have it, but it doesn´t make them any better. They don´t need an ending point, no forced game over, so no 1cc-possibility either. They are endless score games by nature, but the lack of structure is also what they´re lacking compared to scrolling shmups. It doesn´t really feel that different scoring 500.000 or 5.000.000 points in Geometry Wars, you just play a little longer, survive a little better, but the game essentially stays the same.

what

you're suggesting one of the things that you're complaining about

arena shooters don't need stages/bosses that force you to score/survive in different ways? guh

[professor ganson]

Overall I am very happy with the best shooters in this last generation of consoles. Here's why I'm happy: shooters have tended to get deeper/more complex/more challenging without requiring more than 3 buttons. I don't want my shooters to become fighters, but I do enjoy the depth, complexity, and challenge.

I am skeptical that the next gen of consoles will end up with as many first-rate shooters. I am doubtful that we will see as many innovations, for example. Shiki/Psyvariar, Ikaruga, Dragon Blaze/Gunbird 2, Gigawing all offered new gameplay, and no doubt we'll see more innovations along these lines. But as many cool innovations? I seriously doubt it. I hope I am wrong.

[MovingTarget]

Is there any news of shooters on ps3?

[Daigohji]

Dance Dance Rez-olution

No, seriously. Rez and P.N.03 incorporated rhythm on a stylistic level, but I'd like to see a vertical shmup that cranks up a score multiplier when you make successful consecutive hits to the beat of the music. For example: 2x for hitting every fourth beat, 4x for hitting every second beat, 6x for hitting every beat. When a boss fires a pattern it plays a set of irregular beats and you get the maximum multiplier for counterattacking on the next bar of music with the same timing.

It would be the kind of simple mechanic that you could embrace or ignore depending on whether you're playing for 1cc or score.

[howmuchkeefe]

It would be the kind of simple mechanic that you could embrace or ignore depending on whether you're playing for 1cc or score.

It also sounds like a good way to spice up simultaneous competitive play. It would make the game more interesting to watch as well, I bet... especially two players pounding away at a boss in rhythm with each other.

[professor ganson]

Actually I wouldn't mind having the music more fully integrated into the gameplay of a shmup. But then, I've always really liked Amplitude-type games, and I doubt many others existing shmup fans share that interest.

[BulletMagnet]

Is there any news of shooters on ps3?

There was word of something Gradius-related in the works (don't think it was ever confirmed to actually be a shmup), but IIRC it was delayed or something like that...there was a thread or two on it, you could probably find it via search.

[dai jou bu]

Rank system that punches the player in the face if he even dares to say something about ranking, let alone against.

Next Parodius game should have that feature. Implement voice recognition to have a boxing glove come out from the cabinet and nail the sucker once it recognizes the player speak within a certain decibel range. Then install a sensor so it knows where to launch the boxing glove: from the top of the cabinet (if the player's height hits the sensor) or from the coin deposit area (if the player doesn't trigger the sensor). Then have the game mock the player for speaking in that tone.

MARS MATRIX 2.

YES. Being demoralized is always fun!



There needs to be a shmup where your most damaging attack comes from you colliding into the enemy. However, you won't die doing this if you time your shield correctly. When you collide into whatever you hit safely, you'll bounce around the screen in a pre-determined fashion, and the other half of the fun comes from controlling your collisions. If you're good enough, you can combo collisions for MASSIVE DAMAGE, as collision damage is determined by the speed and direction of the craft before impact.

[neorichieb1971]

I think going back to basics is a good idea.

Better graphics, old school gameplay.. Decent pricing and global marketting.

Thats all you need. Simplicity is the key.

[Twiddle]

I think going back to basics is a good idea.

Better graphics, old school gameplay.. Decent pricing and global marketting.

Thats all you need. Simplicity is the key.

hahahahahaha great troll

[Kiken]

There needs to be a shmup where your most damaging attack comes from you colliding into the enemy. However, you won't die doing this if you time your shield correctly. When you collide into whatever you hit safely, you'll bounce around the screen in a pre-determined fashion, and the other half of the fun comes from controlling your collisions. If you're good enough, you can combo collisions for MASSIVE DAMAGE, as collision damage is determined by the speed and direction of the craft before impact.

So what you're saying is that you want to combine Zanac and Night Raid?

[dai jou bu]

sure, if those two games mentioned do something like that.

[raiden]

So tell me - what makes an arena shooter refined or even one-creditable? Arena shooters don´t need stages - if they feature them, it´s kind of an afterthought just interrupting the action. Arena shooters also don´t need level design, of course they can have it, but it doesn´t make them any better. They don´t need an ending point, no forced game over, so no 1cc-possibility either. They are endless score games by nature, but the lack of structure is also what they´re lacking compared to scrolling shmups. It doesn´t really feel that different scoring 500.000 or 5.000.000 points in Geometry Wars, you just play a little longer, survive a little better, but the game essentially stays the same.

what
you're suggesting one of the things that you're complaining about
arena shooters don't need stages/bosses that force you to score/survive in different ways? guh

ok, I didn´t put it very clearly, sorry for the confusion. What I mean is this:
if you want level design, scrolling shmups are the way to go. The scrolling setup allows for level design concepts morphing into each other very smoothly, without interrupting the action. In other words: there´s nothing you can do, level design-wise, in an arena shooter, that can´t be done better in a scrolling shooter. The arena frame just cuts the action into pieces, but doesn´t deliver any benefits which wouldn´t be possible in a scrolling shooter.
The arena shooter, on the other hand, allows for things that wouldn´t make sense in a scrolling shooter, like enemies that spawn depending on the players´ position, a large degree of AI/randomness, in short: a game that plays completely different each time you play it. That´s the opposite of a game with level design, where learning the level design is the focus. A scrolling background supports level design because it gives the player an intuitive timer he can associate relevant game events to. A scrolling background does not support freely evolving gameplay, because it suggests to memorize things that can´t be memorized.
But even in an arena shooter, the degree of randomness needs to be limited, otherwise the game would become unplayable. For example, you will not want enemies appearing right upon your ship instantly, causing a crash you couldn´t avoid. And as the player learns to handle randomized games, he learns to cope with every situation that occurs often within the randomnesses´ scope. What he learns is a strategy that´s successful on average, but he doesn´t learn one that is best, because there can be no such thing in a random-dependent game. So failures keep happening, and instead of trying to eliminate them, the player accepts them as cases of extremely "bad luck" which just occurs, nothing you can do about it. But the lack of perspective where you still need to refine your strategy is what also makes the games pretty boring after a while.

[raiden]

So tell me - what makes an arena shooter refined or even one-creditable? Arena shooters don´t need stages - if they feature them, it´s kind of an afterthought just interrupting the action. Arena shooters also don´t need level design, of course they can have it, but it doesn´t make them any better. They don´t need an ending point, no forced game over, so no 1cc-possibility either. They are endless score games by nature, but the lack of structure is also what they´re lacking compared to scrolling shmups. It doesn´t really feel that different scoring 500.000 or 5.000.000 points in Geometry Wars, you just play a little longer, survive a little better, but the game essentially stays the same.

Not what I had in mind by arena shooters. Have you played Cannon Spike? I'd want that with a little more level structure, less junk enemies, maybe a scoring system. It would not be endless, it would have distinctive bosses, and many of the common arcade shooter qualities.

So why don´t you play Zero Gunner 2?

[Rob]

So why don´t you play Zero Gunner 2?

Uh, I did.

I think they could improve ZG2 in quite a few ways. ZG2 is not enough, and is not an arena shooter. There's a big difference in how it feels. Cannon Spike's bosses feel more alive (in cases like the three mech battle).