Ways to make shmups appeal to mainstreamers again

[Frederik]

I love shmups but they will never be mainstream. It's a pipe dream. The genre is on life support.

Well, the small wave of absolutely stunning shmups that we got since the late nineties till now isn`t my idea of life support, actually. Some people here tried to pinpoint the "golden era" of shmups, and I have to say that there was a time were shmups were looking a lot more alike then those we get today. Innovative ideas like Ikaruga, Psyvariar, EspGaluda are all relatively late things; not counting in the success of small but great doujin games in the way of ZUN or ABA Soft. It seems to me that the shmup genre is still growing up; even though many major developers are dead now, but it`s not that the idea of shoot em ups has run dry. The whole concept is so addicting and fascinating, robust even, that I boldy state that shmups will be there as long as video games themselves!

[GunSpike]

Not that they wouldn`t like it, they simply don`t know that there are alternatives to your local EBGames and the latest release of Madden.

You got that right. I work in an EB Games and see this behavior all the time. People just don't know that other games exist outside of Halo, GTA, and Madden. I even had a customer the other day say he's into niche games, only to start discussing Chrome Hounds for 360 (that was the niche game). I could only respond with "I know what you mean.

Anyway, my idea to get shooters back into the mainstream would be to add poor control, bad 3D graphics, a "go anywhere" scheme, and a hip-hop soundtrack, and you've got gold! Or GTA...

[Klatrymadon]

Instead of having the games themselves adding to the "OMG YOU'RE RUINING GAMING FOR THE REST OF US" bollocks with the appearance of nasty messages upon death, would it not be a thousand times more fruitful to allow no more than 3 credits and to reassure the player that beating the game properly isn't something that's only achieveable by a smattering of hermits?

Most of the ideas here show a lack of interest in getting anybody else to play shooters. I'm not particularly bothered either way, but come on, titty-twisting the more casual players is only going to cause another 20-year lapse in their curiosity. We're dealing with a generation of gamers who give up after one attempt and who probably thought Gradius V was overly smug.

[Blade]

I think an aspect that is somewhat lacking in Shmups to Mainstreamers is lack of lots of weaponry...the whole purpose of many games is to blow the enemy away, the more ways to do this the more appealing the game is.

-Lots of Weapons (even for a single ship ala Silvergun)
-Lots of Stages (Not just Boss-fight stages but lots of stuff to navigate)
-Level Editor (why not! Challenge your friends)
-Lots of Ship design variance/customization (including sub abilities like speed enhancement, shields, beamsabres, hyperwarp, energy absorbtion, megacannons, hyperbombs etc)
-3D in 2D placement is always going to turn a few heads, this is especially true of Gradius V.
-Good shmup techno/trance/ music...not necessarily that cute stuff from Mushihimesama unless it's intent is to be a cute-em-up.
-Lots of Stages (because you can only play the same stage and enjoy it for so long...and lets not forget hidden stages).
-A GOOD ending to a shmup...not some weird thing that doesn't make sense. Perhaps even making the ending vary depending on how well the player did. Nothing insanely hard, but also something that will get them to actually try and complete the stages for score and not just survival.

[Twiddle]

-Lots of Weapons (even for a single ship ala Silvergun)
-Lots of Stages (Not just Boss-fight stages but lots of stuff to navigate)
-Level Editor (why not! Challenge your friends)
-Lots of Ship design variance/customization (including sub abilities like speed enhancement, shields, beamsabres, hyperwarp, energy absorbtion, megacannons, hyperbombs etc)

These are actually horrible ideas.

[Shatterhand]

Yes, those are horrible ideas, and that's why this thread is pointless. While those are horrible ideas, they are GOOD ideas if all you want is to make the "mainstream" players to play the game.

You need a huge game, at least 15 hours to finish it, easy levels with lots and lots of stuff to blow up, amazing graphics, lots of different weapons (You have to buy them, and they get better the more you advance into the game), a health meter, lots of unlockables and a plot, and obviously a save game feature.

If you want to make it at least something near to be a good shmup, you could make the later levels to be harder, but then give the player the option to try different levels, so he doesn't get too frustrated when he keeps dying at the same level.

This could attract the mainstream attention. Would it be a good game? Certainly not. We, the users of this forum, would probably be bored before finishing the game and would go back to DOJ or something.

[howmuchkeefe]

Yah, that's why it'd be important for there to be different game modes.

It's obviously possible to make such a game from a design standpoint, and for it to be good. No one is likely to make such a game, though: The genre has a reputation, and the vision would probably cost millions of dollars (prob. more than 5) to realize. Too much risk.

...I'd really love to play such an auspicious, musically themed shmup, though.

[R_Typist]

...I'd really love to play such an auspicious, musically themed shmup, though.

What kind of music...?

I don't like rap, and I know this sounds stupid, but personally I'd looove to play a Shmup with MC-Hammer's oldschool "U Can't Touch This":

Dodgind bullets to "Can't touch this..." (Duun-do-do-dun... dee-dun... dee-dun)

[Turrican]

I love shmups but they will never be mainstream again. It's a pipe dream. The genre is on life support.

Fixed.

[Randorama]

Speaking of which: why they should appeal to the mainstreamer player?

I know that FatCobra has serious issues (empirical proof: if someone mentions a given topic, he starts "omg the holyness of the SNES". OCD, in a quite weird form). Ii'm not of him making such a thread, but why people are answering? Pretty curious about that.

Oh, and yes, this is bashing another member of the forum, but please notice that said member is TOTALLY UNABLE to restrict himself from having an anti-sociable behaviour because of his personal quirks and problems. Can't see of a worst invitation to heavy criticism.

[Texhnolyze]

I love shmups but they will never be mainstream again. It's a pipe dream. The genre is on life support.

Fixed.

Thanks for the fix

[howmuchkeefe]

What kind of music? Why, as many as possible! Each alien race/stage could correspond to a certain style of music.

"Can't touch this" sounds perfect for dodging hailstorms of bullets.

...and a very funky, coool announcer (I envision the type of voice that tells you that you've been listening to smoooth jaazz) to tell you things, like what power up you've picked up, that a badass ship is approaching, that you've hit a particular chaining milestone, that you've only got "just a couple more shots", or that you've just been owned.

...and the reason why you want shmups to enjoy more mainstream popularity? Because you have faith in the adage, "A rising tide raises all ships", dammit! Because you want to be able to enjoy your love of shmups with your less hardcore friends! Because you're willing to risk seeing the genre you love once more suffer the ignonimity of oversaturation and its attendant poor quality for the chance to see someone, anyone, release a shmup that's even bigger and badder and more beautiful than the one that brought the genre back into the limelight! YEAH!

[Frederik]

While the question itself might not lead to any specific point, I actually find it interesting since I realized that shmups are perfect the way they are - I mean, take Ikaruga, Gradius V, EspGaluda... those games are accesible as shmups get. With the mass of people registered here I don`t see we need to "recruit" new shmup players or appeal to anyone - shmups appeal to a certain kind of gamer and those people will find them nevertheless. And the lack of all those attributes found in "mainstream" games (cutscenes, licensed soundtrack, unlockables, online play) is something I like about those games.

Example: I bought Viewtiful Joe: Double Trouble for the DS today, thinking it might be a nice oldshoolish beat-em-up platformer, but the annoying 5-minute long intros, tutorials, the "story" and retarded puzzles + broken control scheme proved me wrong. I put it up for sale on Amazon two hours later. This is an example of what happens when traditional 2D gameplay get mixed up with "modern" elements: It get annoying. Shame on you Capcom.

[Rob]

the whole purpose of many games is to blow the enemy away, the more ways to do this the more appealing the game is.

It is if you take everything literally (it's a "shooting game"). Most games today have challenged that interpretation. In the most literal way it turns shoot 'em ups into, wait for it, whack a mole. The more hammers you got the better it is!

I'd like someone to defend multiple weapons from a gameplay standpoint. Even in hallmark weapon switching series like Thunder Force, there are always 1-3 too many game-breaking weapons. Two main weapons is enough.

(OK, I remembered Einhander. That's one, thanks to the ship designs and limited ammo.)

[Neon]

We should all just get black belts and beat the shit out of mainstreamers, communists, capitalists, Garegga-haters, Super Nintendo non-owners, and other undesirables.

If you're just like us, you don't get your ass kicked. That's the appeal.

[angrycoder]

The closest you would get to a shmup that would have mainstream popularity would be if Treasure announced Radiant Silvergun 2. The first one has an almost legendary status and mystique surrounding since it is so costly and so few people have played it. The gaming press would give it tons of coverage.

Regardless of what you think of the gameplay, or if the game is overhyped, the production values are still unmatched in the world of shmups. It is just as much of an experience as it is a game.

You've average joe doesn't give 2 shits about what kind of scoring gimmick the game uses, weither it be something as simple as chaining, or some goofyshit obtuse rapid fire or rank system. They want to blow shit up, and feel powerful doing it. A sweeping soundtrack and good graphics go a long way to immerse the player.

[D]

That one is easy.
1 Marketing
2 Basing it on an established video game series, Mario, Metal Gear Solid, Final Fantasy.
There is nothing wrong with shmups today, people just don't know about them. Marketing tells people 2D sucks, so what is a mainstreamer to think? All mainstreamers love shmups if just somebody wips em in the face with 'em
Also the unlimited continues every game has, a reviewer wil play through the game and he's like wtf? Is this it? Without even getting to depths with the game. Mainstreamer reads, LA-LA-LA.
Making it hi-res in a good way so GGX style.
There is nothing wrong with shmups, they are great games.

[Rob]

They want to blow shit up, and feel powerful doing it.

Treasure doesn't make their shooters like that, so.

[Blade]

Call me Devil's Advocate, but I sincerely doubt there will ever be a game that both hardcore shmuppers and mainstream players can agree upon as a good game.

I mean, at the very least, there should be some sort of Segway into the Shmupping genre. Middle ground. Obviously we're going to say that lots of weapons, easy/long/many stages, and other aspects are going to be horrible, but if that's what it takes to get people to try something harder if they appreciated that game, well, then why not?

I'll cite an example (albeit not shmup related)

I was never into RPGs until I tried Final Fantasy VII which is considered by many to be somewhat watered down compared to most RPGs, until I had played and enjoyed it, I had no idea what I was missing out on.

That's what it means to Segway, it's merely a taste of what people can expect from the other games of the related genre.

[Rob]

Call me Devil's Advocate, but I sincerely doubt there will ever be a game that both hardcore shmuppers and mainstream players can agree upon as a good game.
I mean, at the very least, there should be some sort of Segway into the Shmupping genre. Middle ground.

Gradius V?

Obviously we're going to say that lots of weapons, easy/long/many stages, and other aspects are going to be horrible, but if that's what it takes to get people to try something harder if they appreciated that game, well, then why not?

Is this like people instantly setting a Psikyo game to monkey before they can work their way up to normal? Will they ever make it to normal with that attitude? Clearly the challenge doesn't interest them. So what's the point again? To get more people interested in crappy game design and shift the emphasis to crap that sells? I swear we've had this thread three times.

[Blade]

By your logic if people don't play challenging games they are lame. And you also seem to equate light gameplay with crappy design.

A game doesn't have to be complex and hard to be good. The whole point is that it's fun. This isn't about running a marathon, or competing in the olympics of videogaming, it's about enjoying good games.

[Rob]

By your logic if people don't play challenging games they are lame. And you also seem to equate light gameplay with crappy design.

No, my logic is: if people don't play challenging games then challenging games don't interest them. I equate fluff gameplay with crappy design.

A game doesn't have to be complex and hard to be good.

I think this is slowly turning into old school vs. new. Anyways you're right (by good I would say "enjoyable"), but it sure wouldn't turn them onto games that are complex and hard.

[Icarus]

And the good games are games that follow a simple concept, without requiring hundreds of added value content to be included to artificially bloat the playing time.

Shmups, for all their differences, have survived the ages on one thing alone: instant pick up and play. The best examples of the genre are timeless, with infinite replayability. You don't need a 150-page manual to be able to pick up the game and start playing (and yes, I am aware of the kind of strategy for Raizing games, but lets not get into that). Adding all sorts of 'added value' crap into the game, bloating the size of it, does nothing but take a step backwards. If shmups really are dying as some people make out, then plans should be made to advance the genre in a positive way, by advancing new ideas and concepts. The positive way is not filling a basic concept with Gran Turismo-style artificial additions.

Call me Devil's Advocate, but I sincerely doubt there will ever be a game that both hardcore shmuppers and mainstream players can agree upon as a good game.

Methinks your definition of 'mainstream' needs work. I'm a so-called 'hardcore' shmupper that likes his fair share of 'mainstream' games.

'Mainstream'. What a useless definition.

[Randorama]

We should all just get black belts and beat the shit out of mainstreamers, communists, capitalists, Garegga-haters, Super Nintendo non-owners, and other undesirables.

If you're just like us, you don't get your ass kicked. That's the appeal.

The force runs strong in you, young Jedi!

[BulletMagnet]

The force runs strong in you, young Jedi!

I swear, someday you and I are going to meet and have a lightsaber duel, hee hee. You'd better bring Icarus or someone along with you for backup, though, because I'll be packing my Darth Maul-esque dual-bladed model (as befits The Dark Side )...what's more the blades will be bright, flashy, easily-visible ugly neon colors. You'll probably win in the end, though, since I won't be able to see your lightsaber against the background.

[howmuchkeefe]

Icarus - I don't think it must be an either/or proposition. I think that the extra options and playing modes can co-exist with the core mechanics, and I point to Mushi and Ibara as examples of how multiple playing modes, at least, can peacefully share the same DVD.

The hardcore gamer need not play the option laden, Gran Turismo-y campaign mode. The casual gamer need not play the score attack mode. The only thing that could keep either mode from being successful is lack of effort/talent on the part of the developer.

[Twiddle]

Speaking of which: why they should appeal to the mainstreamer player?

A few aspects that we probably won't use but keeps "mainstreamers" playing and yet still keeping the game challenging to both groups of players could help the sales (and keep the optimal amount of people happy). This would increase the likelihood of getting more of these games localized, especially for those who have failed 3 moddings on their PS2 and are unable to play things they have considered importing or playing by any other means (a nice way of putting it).

Increasing credit limit (Treasure shooters and a couple on Naomi), score unlockables for game difficulty/life amount/credit amount options (Mars Matrix), and official replays (Raiden 3, Under Defeat) are ways towards this.

Hell, Arrange modes can help.

It's not like most gamers hate challenging games -- puzzle and multiplayer (not MMORPG) games enjoy a lot of success and those take more than a pulse to play.

[Icarus]

The only thing that could keep either mode from being successful is lack of effort/talent on the part of the developer.

And herein lies our problem. A lot of added value is crammed in to add a few extra hours to the game, without consideration as to just how much it can break the core of the game itself. Ultimate killing weapons. Cars that travel at 240MPH. Characters that do 50HIT combos. Modes that can train characters up to break original mode settings. Extras that are useless to all but the most curious.

There is no need to add all this stuff into a game like some are suggesting here. Sure, it might appeal to a particular kind of short-attention-span player that wants to unlock everything quickly, but once it's unlocked, what next?

Granted, there are extras that work very well, but that is because they work with the original foundation of the game, while adding one or two new concepts to create something different.

There is no need to overload a concept that already works.

Besides, to have two seperate modes of this kind co-exist, you'd have to seperate them onto two or more discs, further adding to production costs. Shmups are quick and easy to make, and not the same as the megabucks Hollywood budgeted projects.

[Randorama]

The force runs strong in you, young Jedi!

I swear, someday you and I are going to meet and have a lightsaber duel, hee hee. You'd better bring Icarus or someone along with you for backup, though, because I'll be packing my Darth Maul-esque dual-bladed model (as befits The Dark Side )...what's more the blades will be bright, flashy, easily-visible ugly neon colors. You'll probably win in the end, though, since I won't be able to see your lightsaber against the background.

I'll use the ultimate red card headbutt combo, so you're warned

[Rob]

Increasing credit limit (Treasure shooters and a couple on Naomi), score unlockables for game difficulty/life amount/credit amount options (Mars Matrix), and official replays (Raiden 3, Under Defeat) are ways towards this.

And these games sold loads. Maybe the ceiling has been reached?

Puzzle games are much more simple to get into, pick up and play anywhere, appeal to potentially everyone (no specific sci-fi or whatever theme usually) and are basically as hard as the player is good at them without having to switch difficulties + various modes/versus. Am I wrong about any of that? It's beautiful. Shooters are much more inherently limited. I don't know anything about mmorpgs.