Why can't religious people lighten up a bit? A polite rant

[magnum opus]

It'd be interesting to see a study of just how religious people are these days. My folks attend church once a week, but it seems like they're just going through the motions, really.

People's intolerance can work to your benefit, though...if you ever get drafted and the war is unjust, just tell them you're gay

well there have been polls that report up to 70% not believing evolution and like 40% honestly belieiving in Genisis
and like 10-20% believing the end days would be within a generation or two

of course there are also research that say church attendence is like 1/5 of what actaully gets reported on things like the census

so it could go either way i suspect
problem is it's always the pat robertsons of the world that speak up

Atheists don't believe in nothing. They believe in evolution, dinosaurs and science. Not blind faith, facts.

i don't know i'd argue, and many (maybe not here) will back me up. that when confronted with mountains of empirically gather testable repeatable evidence belief no longer enters into the equation its more of acceptance

it's like the keyboard i'm typing on, i don't believe it exists, i'm sitting here punching away on it things are getting onto the screen people are responding i really don't have to believe it, i know it.
it's been forwarded by more than just say me, shit st. thomas aquinas wrote on the subject too.
basically proof negates belief. so it's all about what your standard of proof is. personally 150 years of succesful prediction combined with independant agreement from paleontology, geology, anthropology, and chemistry, along with some peripheral agreement with physics is good enough for me. i don't beleive in evolution i know it's happening and i accept it as the explaination for biodiversity.

similarly there are athiests that don't believe/accept in evolution.

the belief comes in when you accept all the evidence but refuse to accept the conclusion

[FatCobra]

overzealous religous people scare me.

I do believe in God and Jesus, but at the same time, I'm an atheist. (Actually, my religion is science and technology!)

[Super Laydock]

Damn, late to the party...


I am proud to be an atheist!

I really think it's weird how people just can't see how it's Mankind that has created God(s) and not the other way around.

And for all the people believing in a God and forcing their believes on others: why not let your God sort his own things out and speak judgement over those "infidels".

[raiden]

I just wanted to mention that Capitalism is also a religion. That´s why the whole "conflict of cultures" scenario painted by the media works at all.

[Neon]

I just wanted to mention that Capitalism is also a religion.

Count me among the religious, then - Communism has failed time and again. It also makes having a democratic/republic type government very difficult - I suggest reading Capitalism & Freedom by Milton Friedman.

[PaCrappa]

Count me among the religious, then - Communism has failed time and again. It also makes having a democratic/republic type government very difficult - I suggest reading Capitalism & Freedom by Milton Friedman.

There are more than two socioeconomic systems. It isn't Capitalism vs The Commies anymore - I suggest visiting any of the many industrialized nations which employ varying degrees of socialism and still call themselves home to millions of happy and free individuals with all the same stuff (except the guns of course) that us awesome capitalistic Americans have.

Pa

[Danny]

Personaly I am not religous, mainly because I do not need to jusitfy my exisistance in this world. I do not know if there is a god or not but I'm going to try and be the best person I can... just in case! (you gotta remeber that a lot of religous rules are based around common sense like don't kill, steal and cuase harm to anybody etc)

Saying that I hate to say this but in my opinion religon seems to create just as many proplems as it solves but that does not mean I dislike religous people, they can beleave in what ever that want as long as they don't harm other people around them which brings me to my example.

The demos' that were taking place here in the UK when those Prophet Cartoons were puplished in Demark. The thing is that there were people running around with placards with "Behead all those who insult Islam" and was thinking to myself "Gee way to go guys, thats a real good way of proving that sterotype wrong and showing the world that you are tollerant and peaceful people, MORONS!". Now that's not me attacking people of that faith just the small number of fools that decided to take part in that demo' and my reasons are fairly simple.

These dumbasses tar everybody in the UK with the same brush and guess what, those cartoons had nothing to do with our country and the last time I looks London was nowere near Demark which really goes to show how dumb some people can be. And I'm sorry but this kind of behavior really annoys me because a small number of egits take it upon themselfs to be intollerant to a country that acepts them in to there bussom and hell even pays for there upkeep of there worshiping tempels (which comes out of my wage packet VIA taxes by the way!) and this is the thanks we get for being a multicultural society that acepts all religons and allows anyone to speak there mind freely? You could imagen what would happen if somebody made a Islamic version of "The life of Brian" would'nt you?

It's small minded idiots like the people that demo'ed in the UK about the Cartoons that make the world a more suckier place than it already is and I aplogise to anyone that has become offended by this post but thats how I feel about whats going on at the moment and please don't even get me started on Iraq/Middle Eastern war/War on Terror etc etc...

[Neon]

Count me among the religious, then - Communism has failed time and again. It also makes having a democratic/republic type government very difficult - I suggest reading Capitalism & Freedom by Milton Friedman.

There are more than two socioeconomic systems. It isn't Capitalism vs The Commies anymore - I suggest visiting any of the many industrialized nations which employ varying degrees of socialism and still call themselves home to millions of happy and free individuals with all the same stuff (except the guns of course) that us awesome capitalistic Americans have.

Pa

No excessive patriotism in my comment, state run enterprises/monopolies are uniformly inferior to competitive private firms, compare a (should I say the) Trabant (and the ten years they took to fill your order) to a Ford or British Telecommunications/AT&T (both since privatized/split) to, say, Sprint if you don't believe me.

'Socialist' european states don't have 'all the same stuff' we do...it depends on your viewpoint whether their systems are superior. Shorter work weeks, more vacation weeks, 'free' healthcare, etc. come at the cost of higher unemployment, higher taxes, etc. It's not without cost like some make it out to be.

[howmuchkeefe]

Neon -

It's not without cost like some make it out to be.

Back when the US wasn't quite as socialist as it is now, its citizens enjoyed such side effects of less-regulated capitalism as child labor, low product safety standards (pasteurization, an expensive process which, after it was forced upon a very reluctant industry by dint of government regulation, had a miraculous effect on infant mortality rates), and high rates of work-related injuries.

So, I'd say that capitalism isn't without cost, either.

[Super Laydock]

No excessive patriotism in my comment, state run enterprises/monopolies are uniformly inferior to competitive private firms

Superior in what way?

Getting more profits: yes!
Better effieciency: probably!

Better for the majority of te country it's in? NO!

[Neon]

Neon -

It's not without cost like some make it out to be.

Back when the US wasn't quite as socialist as it is now, its citizens enjoyed such side effects of less-regulated capitalism as child labor, low product safety standards (pasteurization, an expensive process which, after it was forced upon a very reluctant industry by dint of government regulation, had a miraculous effect on infant mortality rates), and high rates of work-related injuries.

So, I'd say that capitalism isn't without cost, either.

Indeed. There are good reasons most states are mixed economies.

Superior in what way?

Getting more profits: yes!
Better effieciency: probably!

Better for the majority of te country it's in? NO!

Reasons w/examples? I fail to see how having only one choice makes things better for me.

[Randorama]

This thread is ace

[sethsez]

Pure capitalism would collapse just as surely as any "pure" ideology eventually would.

Of course, no purely capitalist society exists, so that's a moot point anyway. People who argue about these ideologies often forget that they never exist in their pure forms in real life, so unless you have a hard-on for arguing hypotheticals, "capitalism vs. communism" is just spinning your wheels and going nowhere.

[Neon]

This thread is ace

OMG troll

Communist troll

Have you posted Ibara impressions yet?
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"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man, sitting in the clouds, watching everything you do, every minute of every day." - George Carlin

[judesalmon]

Who cares if someone makes a cartoon that pokes fun at your religion?

I am in no way religious, but if you think it's reasonable to draw pictures of a religious figure whose religion states that it is strictly prohibited to do so, the you are sorely mistaken.

[Randorama]

This thread is ace

OMG troll

Communist troll

Have you posted Ibara impressions yet?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man, sitting in the clouds, watching everything you do, every minute of every day." - George Carlin

Be waiting, please.Yesasia has shipped it...10 days ago, so it's hopefully here by the end of the week

[Acid King]

Wouldn't it be awesome if we lived in a vacuum?

Yes because tolerating peoples differences and lifestyle choices which affect no one but themselves means living in a vacuum...

I'd like to also add capitalism eats children and free trade is the cause of cancer.

[Randorama]

I'd like to also add capitalism eats children and free trade is the cause of cancer.

Now i'm confused. Wasn't communism that ate children and religion caused cancer

[PaCrappa]

Neon, when I suggested visiting those places, I meant that there is alot to be learnt by going there and hanging out with folks that live there. There isn't really too much to learn about real life and the things that really make it real from a pack of numbers that you read in a book, heard in class or saw on the internet. Numbers seem have this way of turning everything into some sort of contest by acting as though they make everything in the human experience quantifiable. Ya know, "Unemployment is X is this country yet only Y in that country, therefore the economic structure in play in country Y is obviously way more awesome and country X along with every other country should do the same". Real life isn't always a contest and from my observation, most of it (real life) exists outside of anything a list of numbers generated by white collar "experts" who get paid to try to quantify everything can adequately explain.

Lots of people are happy, healthy and have perfectly decent standards of living in many countries that employ more socialist type policies than the USA does.

Pa

[it290]

I am in no way religious, but if you think it's reasonable to draw pictures of a religious figure whose religion states that it is strictly prohibited to do so, the you are sorely mistaken.

Insensitive, perhaps, but it's not a political cartoonist's job to be sensitive. It is not for people of one religion to decide what people of another religion may or may not do. Freedom of expression (no matter what the 'value' of that expression) is a universal right and trumps a religious edict.

[sethsez]

He's free to express himself, but depending on what he says, people are free to call him a stupid douchebag for it.

[it290]

Certainly, but i'ts not worth commiting violent acts over such a matter. Of course, the rioting and violence can't be attributed to the cartoon alone.

[sethsez]

I don't think anybody is defending the violence.

[neorichieb1971]

We should be able to live in a world with no borders, no symbolism, no flags and no indifference.

As soon as a party generates mass numbers of member support, wether it be religious or political, its going to cause a problem for those that are non members.

There is always going to be violence.

[raiden]

a few explanations:

of course something like "pure" capitalism doesn´t exist, but there´s a general worldwide tendency towards it. The thing is capitalism is usually associated with democracy, but doesn´t really depend on it in the least. Capitalism was present in the Nazi regime, and right now China is in the process of showing again capitalism doesn´t need human rights at all, in fact it works even better without them.

During the past decades, capitalism used to be balanced with democracy. Capitalism leads to a concentration of power in a few hands, but democracy spreads power to all people, and this balance worked out rather nicely. But nowadays global enterprises are in a position to dictate goverments their policies, goverments which were elected democratically, but fail to act like that because enterprises can threaten them and play them out against each other.

Capitalism isn´t that efficient either. In communism, people weren´t very motivated to deliver quality products, but it´s capitalism that invented products with a limited lifespan by design to make sure they can be sold over and over again.

But the reason capitalism is a religion is the way people behave regarding money. Originally an instrument to ease trade, it´s now considered as a value per se. Humankind destroys its future perspectives in exchange for something abstract. And people don´t even think about their actions, instead they see themselves guided by forceful circumstances. When a factory director closes doors, leaving 10000 people around him unemployed because his numbers tell him to, he doesn´t even consider one of them might take revenge and nullify his profits in the process. He prefers to live in a hostile environment, just for a few digits on his bank account he doesn´t even get to spend in his lifetime. That´s completely irrational behaviour, yet capitalism labels it as rational. Similarly, investment firms get to profit from ruining companies. We´ve all come to accept perverted concepts like that simply because we´ve grown up with them, but that doesn´t make them any more rational than suicide bombers´ training camps.

[neorichieb1971]

Capitalism gives you tangible things, its not a faith.

Patriotism is a form of faith.. and most of this thread can be related directly to it.

[Nemo]

And they're good things to live by because without them, society would cease to exist and we'd all be miserable.

Exactly, this is what I was getting at, your ideals come from society, and society's ideals were founded upon religous principles.

Because if you only answer to yourself, your sense of responsibility and integrity is completely different than that of another person, therefore anyone can and will rationalize any behavior which leads to anarchy.

So you're only a good person out of fear of retribution? That's the mindset of a child.

Actually, that's the complete opposite of me and anyone with a faith, and exactly the mentaility I was criticizing.

I don't steal things from people because I have respect for their property, not because I fear what will happen if I do. I guess if you think everyone is an asshole with no possibility of seeing consequences or how society intertwines then you might be onto something, but I'd like to think most people are capable of at least basic empathy without the threat of divine retribution.

I have a good idea about your background and attitude towards faith as a result of it, but I'm not going to expound on it publicly.

Then accept that atheists do not "believe in nothing." Not believing in a deity is not the same as believing in nothing.

For me it is, if you're only capable of understanding things which can be scientifically proven, then you're not believing anything, you're simply accepting information.

Yeah man, about as awesome as running out of material three posts into a thread.

Pa

Yeah man, you capable of entering a topic without trolling?

[Nemo]

Wouldn't it be awesome if we lived in a vacuum?

Yes because tolerating peoples differences and lifestyle choices which affect no one but themselves means living in a vacuum...

I don't think you understand the carelessness of a statement like "everyone should live how they want". Even the statement you just made is self-defeating because if everyone lived how they wanted, why would people feel obligated to respect your differences and choices?

[sethsez]

And they're good things to live by because without them, society would cease to exist and we'd all be miserable.

Exactly, this is what I was getting at, your ideals come from society, and society's ideals were founded upon religous principles.

Religious ideals come from society, not the other way around. Religion is simply a way to easily state, enforce, and pass down these ideals. But make no mistake, religion says "don't kill each other" because society said it first. And society said it first because humans are fundamentally a social species... we want to be together instinctively, and for it to work at all there needs to be order.

Religion is, in a sense, like a constitution. It isn't an originator of ideas, just a formal declaration of them.

I don't steal things from people because I have respect for their property, not because I fear what will happen if I do. I guess if you think everyone is an asshole with no possibility of seeing consequences or how society intertwines then you might be onto something, but I'd like to think most people are capable of at least basic empathy without the threat of divine retribution.

I have a good idea about your background and attitude towards faith, but I'm not going to expound on it publicly.

Oh, please, go ahead.

Then accept that atheists do not "believe in nothing." Not believing in a deity is not the same as believing in nothing.

For me it is, if you're only capable of understanding things which can be scientifically proven, then you're not believing anything, you're simply accepting information.

"Belief" doesn't imply blind faith.

I'd also like to ask if you came up with your religion on your own, or if it was taught to you, inspired by books and pastors and friends and family. Religion is just as much about "accepting information" as anything, which is why millions of people all follow the same ones instead of every person having their own unique deity.

Again, the entire basis of what you're saying is that without religion, humans are fundamentally selfish and incapable of seeing consequences for their actions. I'd say you have a pretty dismal view of humanity. Personally, I don't kill people or steal things because I'm fully capable of empathy for fellow humans, and even if I wasn't I'd still be aware of what would happen to me if I did. Religion doesn't play a part.

[Bingo]

He's free to express himself, but depending on what he says, people are free to call him a stupid douchebag for it.

That's the paradox in 'freedom', isn't it? All facets of our freedom that in any way do or could enter the sphere of another individual are really given to us as an extension of that person's tolerance. And vice versa. The picture isn't complete when you define anyone's freedom in terms of their isolated rights. After all, where does our freedom stop and theirs begin? When we defend our freedom of expression to piss on our neighbours sentiments, we also diminish our freedom by lowering their tolerance. Like any bargain, of course, this can be one-sided, and passivity isn't the way to alert either side to their role either. Most religious people hold their beliefs so close to their hearts that to not respect them is such a violent intrusion upon their personal freedom it always spells conflict. We may have the right to do it, but I believe it isn't in the best interest of our freedom to exercise it blindly. Diplomacy exists for a reason.