Dadshmup design vs Danmaku shmup design

[Steven]

You can still be very proactive in bullet hell. Ketsui and Crimzon Clover come to mind, especially if you are playing for score, in which case you have to. Mars Matrix as well, if you want to be like Japanese Wikipedia and consider that bullet hell.

I'm not sure if I would call Mars Matrix bullet hell or not, but I will say that it's an awesome game, even with the odd one-button thing.

lol I found some official Mars Matrix art that literally says bullet hell, so I guess that's officially what it is, whether one thinks so or not:

Spoiler

[Sumez]

Dadmaku

[Lemnear]

You can still be very proactive in bullet hell. Ketsui and Crimzon Clover come to mind, especially if you are playing for score, in which case you have to. Mars Matrix as well, if you want to be like Japanese Wikipedia and consider that bullet hell.

I'm not sure if I would call Mars Matrix bullet hell or not, but I will say that it's an awesome game, even with the odd one-button thing.

lol I found some official Mars Matrix art that literally says bullet hell, so I guess that's officially what it is, whether one thinks so or not:

Spoiler

Yes you can, but that's the difference. In one you can, in the other you MUST, take Raiden for example (and in a certain sense also R-Type/Pulstar), if you don't immediately eliminate everything that enters the screen you will hardly get out alive.

Thinking about it, you/me/someone should make a graph, between Bullet Density (Danmaku-ness), Bullet Speed ​​(Dodge Difficulty/Old-School-ness). And place the various shmups in it. Because in the end it's more of a gradual nuance than a real genre break with the exception of some extremes.

Bullet hell sucks because

• Vaguely defined, tiny hurtbox that results in a lot of both "how the fuck did I die, there was nothing anywhere near me!" and "how the fuck did I not die, I should have gotten annihilated!" but is necessary to survive the enemy bullet vomit

• Too much focus on awful, needlessly complex scoring systems that only a handful of people understand or chaining, which is boring/annoying and not fun

Can I apply the bold sentence to Elden Ring too?
Oh my god, I think the one below too

Why this hatred towards bullet-hell? Do you see that you like some of them like Batsugun, Mars Matrix or Crimson Clover? ù_ù

[BareKnuckleRoo]

I don't see why Batsugun can't be a bullet hell game. It's got a small hurtbox, bullet diarrhea, and a dumb scoring system that nobody likes (milking stage 4 boss, in this case. Boring!).

Its bullet count simply isn't dense enough to qualify. There's one or two patterns that involve navigating denser shots, but a lot of the time it relies on a lot of very unusual things like homing bullets you need to make wide movements to avoid and misdirect at times, and the hitbox is fairly large in Batsugun compared to the much smaller size in Batsugun Special. It's considered to be a precursor to bullet hell game, similar to Donpachi in that regard in that it was an in-between game before bullet hell style games started to really be established as a genre. Arguably Dodonpachi was one of first to really qualify with its tiny hitbox and very dense patterns to navigate.

[Steven]

Bullet hell sucks because

• Vaguely defined, tiny hurtbox that results in a lot of both "how the fuck did I die, there was nothing anywhere near me!" and "how the fuck did I not die, I should have gotten annihilated!" but is necessary to survive the enemy bullet vomit

• Too much focus on awful, needlessly complex scoring systems that only a handful of people understand or chaining, which is boring/annoying and not fun

Can I apply the bold sentence to Elden Ring too?
Oh my god, I think the one below too

I don't know, I've never played it and don't know anything about it...

Why this hatred towards bullet-hell? Do you see that you like some of them like Batsugun, Mars Matrix or Crimson Clover? ù_ù

lol it's in the thing you quoted.

I don't really care for Batsugun, though. It's... acceptable, but ultimately not especially interesting compared to most of the older Toaplan games, most of which do literally everything better: stage design, enemy placement, music, graphics, scoring, pacing (sometimes)... yeah. I do totally understand liking the short run time of Batsugun's... 15 minutes? 20 minutes? However long it is. It's ultra short, but that's not a bad thing. I am pretty sure it's longer than Hishouzame loop 1 (about 15 minutes and 59 seconds, provided that you no miss no bomb and pick up all of the bombs in the game), and it's definitely longer than Hishouzame loop 2 and Slap Fight, which come in at like 12 minutes each. Compare it to the 50 minute runtime of Zero Wing and yeah.

Crimzon Clover I can't explain. I just like it for some reason. I don't even really care for the graphics or music at all, but the gameplay is good, perhaps because it's bullet hell Soukyuugurentai with a very aggressive playstyle. Speaking of Soukyuugurentai, Mars Matrix has the same attitude and style that Soukyuugurentai has. Unlike Soukyuugurentai, it's extremely difficult right from the start. It does technically have a form of chaining, which I said I don't like, but it doesn't seem to bother me with Mars Matrix.

I don't see why Batsugun can't be a bullet hell game. It's got a small hurtbox, bullet diarrhea, and a dumb scoring system that nobody likes (milking stage 4 boss, in this case. Boring!).

Its bullet count simply isn't dense enough to qualify. There's one or two patterns that involve navigating denser shots, but a lot of the time it relies on a lot of very unusual things like homing bullets you need to make wide movements to avoid and misdirect at times, and the hitbox is fairly large in Batsugun compared to the much smaller size in Batsugun Special. It's considered to be a precursor to bullet hell game, similar to Donpachi in that regard in that it was an in-between game before bullet hell style games started to really be established as a genre. Arguably Dodonpachi was one of first to really qualify with its tiny hitbox and very dense patterns to navigate.

Okay, so what is the exact number of bullets we need to be bullet hell?

It's a semi-rhetorical question, of course, but it's still interesting to consider. At least, I think it is. For the record, I think it is most likely not a bullet hell game, but it is much closer to what is considered bullet hell than something that isn't, so "in between" is probably the best answer, but if that wasn't a choice and I was only allowed to choose between "bullet hell" and "not", I'm choosing bullet hell.

Ultimately, I don't think it actually even matters because "bullet hell" doesn't have a formal or official definition, so...

[BIL]

Dadmaku

+

[Lethe]

Thinking about it, you/me/someone should make a graph, between Bullet Density (Danmaku-ness), Bullet Speed ​​(Dodge Difficulty/Old-School-ness).

You've reminded me of that aspirant shmupdev who asked IRC for feedback on the pattern he'd made. His boss stayed completely still and had limited firing angles with safespots between them, and he didn't understand what the flaw was. He was desperate to make it really hard, so people kept telling him JUST ADD MORE BULLETS and FASTER BULLETS, and he kept doing it until the screen was full of useless shit flying around at lightspeed and it didn't help at all. Does anybody know what I'm on about? It's in a thread on here. Or is this just the dementia talking again?

Anyway, I'm sure you can guess why I'm bringing this up while quoting your idea.

[BIL]

Does anybody know what I'm on about?

Fuck yeah you know I do, that's AMAZEING SHUMP GAPELAY Will see if I can chase it up!

EDIT: Damn I'm good. ;3

ORIGINAL SIGHTING / REACTIONZ ON THE RADER Ah man, all my favourite people, including Ed who I'm now mortal enemies with, life some sad shit >w<

Anyway yes, amazing

[Lemnear]

Bullet hell sucks because

• Vaguely defined, tiny hurtbox that results in a lot of both "how the fuck did I die, there was nothing anywhere near me!" and "how the fuck did I not die, I should have gotten annihilated!" but is necessary to survive the enemy bullet vomit

• Too much focus on awful, needlessly complex scoring systems that only a handful of people understand or chaining, which is boring/annoying and not fun

Can I apply the bold sentence to Elden Ring too?
Oh my god, I think the one below too

I don't know, I've never played it and don't know anything about it...

Why this hatred towards bullet-hell? Do you see that you like some of them like Batsugun, Mars Matrix or Crimson Clover? ù_ù

lol it's in the thing you quoted.

I don't really care for Batsugun, though. It's... acceptable, but ultimately not especially interesting compared to most of the older Toaplan games, most of which do literally everything better: stage design, enemy placement, music, graphics, scoring, pacing (sometimes)... yeah. I do totally understand liking the short run time of Batsugun's... 15 minutes? 20 minutes? However long it is. It's ultra short, but that's not a bad thing. I am pretty sure it's longer than Hishouzame loop 1 (about 15 minutes and 59 seconds, provided that you no miss no bomb and pick up all of the bombs in the game), and it's definitely longer than Hishouzame loop 2 and Slap Fight, which come in at like 12 minutes each. Compare it to the 50 minute runtime of Zero Wing and yeah.

Crimzon Clover I can't explain. I just like it for some reason. I don't even really care for the graphics or music at all, but the gameplay is good, perhaps because it's bullet hell Soukyuugurentai with a very aggressive playstyle. Speaking of Soukyuugurentai, Mars Matrix has the same attitude and style that Soukyuugurentai has. Unlike Soukyuugurentai, it's extremely difficult right from the start. It does technically have a form of chaining, which I said I don't like, but it doesn't seem to bother me with Mars Matrix.

yes? exactly, that's what I quoted for this I asked, despite the flaws you listed "there is something" in Crimson Clover.


Batsugun has some real bullet hell points, for example Jupiter really gives me that vibe, or Mad Steel Darkness too.
While Madzella and Ground of the Galaxy are much more Old-School.

So was my connection between "aggressive gameplay" and "old-school" correct? Do those who prefer the old-school style prefer proactive gameplay where they have the reins of the action?
While those who prefer danmaku want to "navigate the action" instead?

However, the term Bullet-Hell has been used by the developers themselves regarding some games, so it must have some meaning.

[Lemnear]

Thinking about it, you/me/someone should make a graph, between Bullet Density (Danmaku-ness), Bullet Speed ​​(Dodge Difficulty/Old-School-ness).

You've reminded me of that aspirant shmupdev who asked IRC for feedback on the pattern he'd made. His boss stayed completely still and had limited firing angles with safespots between them, and he didn't understand what the flaw was. He was desperate to make it really hard, so people kept telling him JUST ADD MORE BULLETS and FASTER BULLETS, and he kept doing it until the screen was full of useless shit flying around at lightspeed and it didn't help at all. Does anybody know what I'm on about? It's in a thread on here. Or is this just the dementia talking again?

Anyway, I'm sure you can guess why I'm bringing this up while quoting your idea.

But I didn't mean for game design, but for a classification issue
There are a group of games that are in a gray area.

[BIL]

But I didn't mean for game design, but for a classification issue
There are a group of games that are in a gray area.

Yeah I agree tbh. This too:

Because in the end it's more of a gradual nuance than a real genre break with the exception of some extremes.

I was gonna say GOOD JARB like BLASTWIND EMCEE but my overall ennui for the subject dragged me down. 3;

STGs, like FTGs and beltscrollers etc, are more a format than a genre to me. Tweak parameters for desired result. That's not a slight but the highest praise, there's a rich spectrum of possibilites yet no room for the tedious direct-to-VHS horseshit that infests more console-centric genres. Wow, muh zombie survival lesbian morality simulator TPS! Put the fries in the bag asswipe

[Lemnear]

Does anybody know what I'm on about?

Fuck yeah you know I do, that's AMAZEING SHUMP GAPELAY Will see if I can chase it up!

EDIT: Damn I'm good. ;3

ORIGINAL SIGHTING / REACTIONZ ON THE RADER Ah man, all my favourite people, including Ed who I'm now mortal enemies with, life some sad shit >w<

Anyway yes, amazing

This will be my new screensaver!

_____________________________

I don't want to say anything but Karous which is made by professional developers has the same defect

[BIL]

I don't want to say anything but Karous which is made by professional developers has the same defect

Yeah you can make something of Karous though ;3

YOU SEE THEM SKILLZ >83 (ranking RAYBADMAN R-Gray1 in thread )

Also VERSATILITY While those lame eroshumps - STEAM HEART'S COOF COOF - call themselves fapping games, this is A LITERAL ONE that's also a functional scoring challenge! HANDS-FREE GAMEPLAY + HARDCORE INH DVD TECHINQUE

Just not at the same time! Well probably not. Takes all sorts, that's what my old man *coof* I mean DAD told me! FUCK YOU DAAAD, I WANNA RAWK (The Theme Of Danmaku Shmup Design™)

Oh wait that was Radirgy INH covered wasn't it. Or was it both? Hmm.

[Lethe]

But I didn't mean for game design, but for a classification issue
There are a group of games that are in a gray area.

The abstract bit we agree on. What I'm (pedantically) getting at is that the criteria don't mean anything. You have the game with the densest and fastest bullets: it's ProtoShip. Does it have anything worthwhile in common with anything else? Fuck no, comparing it to other games makes no sense at all. So its position in the hypothetical extreme top-right of the chart tells us nothing. You've already started looking at things in terms of exact contexts, so you might as well start treating it as a format over a genre (or two blended genres), as BIL so succinctly put it.

[BIL]

An interesting bit of wilful de-calibration: NMK Macross's final stage. Doesn't look very busy, but is in fact a disturbingly unsurvivable-sans-bomba car crusher. Beyond the hated dogpiles, those pincer strikers will wrench your wrist and trip your ankle and slam your face into the urinal cake before you can say KAKIZAKIIII, unless you keep your finger on that generously-stocked, instantly conflict-ending trigger. Ha! You had me all trussed up then BLAOWW! Somebody call the ambulance but not for me! Sorry kids this is getting rather graphic 3;

Trim the hit+hurtboxes, mayyybe up the ship speed just a tick, and would be Muh DREAM HAX™ for sure. Well, Dream Tweax. Dream Hack would be button-per-weapon with metered switching for that REAL HYPERDUEL FEEL, fawwwk yeah

As is, nothing like the preceding six stages' superb Fast Aimed Shotters™ aka Shump Ur Dad LIEK A loop that rides the absolute redline of NMK's "Pull a grenade in a gunfight! Do it pussy! :3" make/model, only to tumble over with a BOMBAAA resource 'em up bungee cord attached at 11th hour.

I rove it - I am ur dad after all, speaking of good rides - but it coulda used some... DANMAKU SHUMP DESIGN >83

NOT SAFE FOR DADS (■｀w´■)

eg Thunder Dragon 2, which nobody would ever call danmaku. Dangunmaku, maybe, but not the fuck really. IIIRC anyway! Been a while since I read a ShumpChat outside ACA or Dick Stock.

[Lemnear]

But I didn't mean for game design, but for a classification issue
There are a group of games that are in a gray area.

The abstract bit we agree on. What I'm (pedantically) getting at is that the criteria don't mean anything. You have the game with the densest and fastest bullets: it's ProtoShip. Does it have anything worthwhile in common with anything else? Fuck no, comparing it to other games makes no sense at all. So its position in the hypothetical extreme top-right of the chart tells us nothing. You've already started looking at things in terms of exact contexts, so you might as well start treating it as a format over a genre (or two blended genres), as BIL so succinctly put it.

But the graph would have only indicated the speed and quantity (approximately) of the bullets, not the quality of the titles.
A sort of chromatic scale between one extreme (Old-School) and the other (Danmaku). You can't evaluate quality like that, in addition to being subjective, there is also the TOP25 for this, more or less .
So yes, it ends up straight in the top right corner, approximately DDP is in the bottom right corner (not exactly the corner because there are danmaku with more bullets, but it's to give you an idea). Raiden/Toaplan-Style in the top left corner and things like Aleste in the bottom left corner, approximately.

[Sengoku Strider]

Dadmaku

Mullet Hell

[BIL]

Dadmaku

Mullet Hell

[img:WARRIORS]

+

[Jonpachi]

I’m into momshmups — games that allow for heavy point-milking opportunities.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

Jonpachi's momshmup specifically ;)

[Sengoku Strider]

[BEAMLORD]

OK

[Randorama]

...We all know that Gradius is a portmanteau/blend of GRAndfather's gladIUS, don't we? Konami marketed the game as a pesky & pervy game that frisky grandpas could buy for their beloved kiddos. Once the kiddos were sleeping, the grandpas could insert the NES code and unsheathe their swords in all of their glory

By the way, my father played Gradius (arcade) when he was 28, forty years ago. I tried Do DonPachi when I was 21 or 22, i.e. 23 years ago. Whatever passes as "modern danmaku shmups" these days may be games for kids in their teens or twenties.

I would therefore say that right now, the 1970s-1980s shmups are the grandparents' shmups, the 1990s-2000s the fathers' shmups (I am not a father, but some people here are parents), and 2010-2020s are the grandchildren's shmups. Game mechanics-wise, it is all about the legacy and "generations "working together" for *thinks a bit* ah yes, a "better tomorrow".

Marketing departments can contact me any time for payment due to me solving them an important marketing conundrum.

[Jonpachi]

Pachi, don't preach, I'm in trouble deep
Pachi, don't preach, I've been losing sleep
But I made up my mind, I'm fightin' hibachi
I'm gonna fight hibachi!

[BEAMLORD]

I'm a (step)Dad of a certain age, and of course I love Gradius, it's contemporaries and forebears. But I also like to "get down with the kids" and play cutting-edge 20 year old fayre, like DOJ or Ketsui. There is room for all at Odin's shmupping hall.

[BIL]

I'm a (step)Dad of a certain age, and of course I love Gradius, it's contemporaries and forebears. But I also like to "get down with the kids" and play cutting-edge 20 year old fayre, like DOJ or Ketsui. There is room for all at Odin's shmupping hall.

Ketsui settled down after uni and is now a Cool Dad Shump™

[Daytime Waitress]

[Sengoku Strider]

ヅ

I see you. I hear you.

[PerishedFraud ឵឵]

badshmup

[bobhasashotgun]

aRthritis-Type