Bush is at it again.

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Acid King
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Post by Acid King »

BulletMagnet wrote: And that fact in itself doesn't somehow disturb you? The government already doesn't care nearly enough about education, and it's trying to concern itself with it even less than it currently does. The same goes for health care and the like; the government strangles all the life out of it, and then points to it and says "See? Big government doesn't work!" and uses that as an excuse for further privatization.
It doesn't disturb me because I don't see how a large, overarching one size fits all federal infrastructure for education can help a country as large and diverse as ours. As for the government strangling the life from projects, some of them never worked in the first place.
From what I know NASA hasn't exactly been swimming in money for some time...considering the various difficulties they've had with some of their recent operations, and the outdated nature of much of their equipment, it makes sense. Speaking of which, didn't the Prez propose some kind of mission to Mars some time ago...what happened to that?
17 billion dollars, while small in comparison to the total size of our budget, is still a ton of money that could be used elsewhere, if not simply given back to people whom it was taken from.
Does that mean that you just plain shouldn't offer anything in the first place, though? This brings to mind the current plight of some of the Katrina refugees who have been in hotels since being displaced: IIRC, apparently FEMA's not paying for at least some of them anymore. The people, as you'd expect, don't want to leave, since they have noplace to go. Should the government have just left them on their own from the get-go? Considering the slow response to the disaster, it almost seems as it they tried to do just that...
No, it means that once you instate a program/department, it becomes almost impossible to get rid of, no matter how useless it is (if you've taken a freshman American politics class this should be familiar to you) and that we need to critical of effectiveness rather than seeing it as a black/white game of cutting/increasing funds.

Here's an example; the government sets up a welfare program to combat poverty. A billion dollars is spent and there is no real decrease in poverty. The next year, it ups it's budget by another billion yet no results are seen. This continues for a decade, the government is spending 10 billion dollars on a worthless program with no results to show for it. The next year, an intrepid governor says fuck it, let's halve the budget for this program and try a different approach. Do you think ANYONE would see that as anything other than a governor attempting to fuck over the poor?

In more human terms, if you paid someone a thousand dollars to fix your roof and they do a shitty job that doesn't improve the problems you have, are you going to pay them an other 1,500 just to have another whack at it?

Even though I'm ideologically opposed to big government, I have no problem admitting when government programs/spending are effective. If they aren't, then I say, why do we have them?
To a point I agree, but again, why does it seem that ONLY public institutions which this administration would rather just throw out the window are being told to "trim the fat," and others are either left as they are or further exempted from any economic sacrifices whatsoever?
You just answered your own question. It's because they don't have an interest in them and they aren't required for their needs. Bush doesn't get millions of dollars worth of campaign contributions from school teachers or people on welfare. Give me a few minutes and I could produce half a dozen lists of programs that could be easily cut away and would save taxpayers billions of dollars. I agree. I think the entirety of the government should be cut in size. I just don't think we should have sacred cows and be averse to cutting funding or scrapping altogether departments and programs that simply don't get results. We need to be more critical about government spending, and not give them blanket checks to spend as much as they want on certain things because of the "goodness" of said things (healthcare, education etc).
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Post by Acid King »

Holy shit, somehow posting on these forums doesn't seem a good idea anymore... You'd really wish to kill guys with different political ideas from yours? Scary.
I'm not defending him because I think it's kinda silly to say something like that, but posting any conservative economic viewpoint doesn't seem like a good idea on this forum considering the shitstorms that arise everytime someone does.
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Post by VNAF Ace »

Turrican wrote:
VNAF Ace wrote:America is a liberating power, not an imperial power.

As for your idiotic comment about communism...
http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/s ... ign_04.gif
And that number includes several of my family members.

The communists can bring it on. I welcome my first oppurtunity to kill some communists, and avenge my family's honor.
Holy shit, somehow posting on these forums doesn't seem a good idea anymore... You'd really wish to kill guys with different political ideas from yours? Scary. :shock:
Communist terrorists in Vietnam murdered one of my aunts, stole my great-grandfather's medical license, stole my grandfather's business and house (which he had earned through decades of hard work), and fired on the refugee boat that my mom and aunt escaped in. They also jailed and tortured my father from 1975 to 1981 just because he served in the South Vietnamese Air Force (VNAF).

No one messes with my family. They started this war, but I'm going to finish it.
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Post by Turrican »

VNAF Ace wrote:
Turrican wrote:
VNAF Ace wrote:America is a liberating power, not an imperial power.

As for your idiotic comment about communism...
http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/s ... ign_04.gif
And that number includes several of my family members.

The communists can bring it on. I welcome my first oppurtunity to kill some communists, and avenge my family's honor.
Holy shit, somehow posting on these forums doesn't seem a good idea anymore... You'd really wish to kill guys with different political ideas from yours? Scary. :shock:
Communist terrorists in Vietnam murdered one of my aunts, stole my great-grandfather's medical license, stole my grandfather's business and house (which he had earned through decades of hard work), and fired on the refugee boat that my mom and aunt escaped in. They also jailed and tortured my father from 1975 to 1981 just because he served in the South Vietnamese Air Force (VNAF).

No one messes with my family. They started this war, but I'm going to finish it.
I'm sorry to hear your loss but you shouldn't see all in black & white... The communist party here in Italy organized the Resistance and saved thousands of lives from the nazi. You can't hate all who share a belief, can you? If a christian shot at my mom, would I want revenge on all christians? Heck, no.
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Post by VNAF Ace »

That's not a valid analogy. Communism is an oppressive political/economic system.

Christianity is a peaceful religion. Now there may be some crazed lunatics who try to twist religion to further their own selfish goals, but that doesn't mean I'm going to judge all Christians based on the actions of a few crazed lunatics.

As for my comment about killing Communists... I was merely responding to yojo's idiotic post calling for a communist revolution. My family didn't risk their lives to escape from a communist ####hole just to stand by and let America be taken over by communists. If communists ever try to take over America, then they'll be fighting against hundreds of millions of freedom-loving Americans (which includes me and my family).
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Post by Turrican »

VNAF Ace wrote:That's not a valid analogy. Communism is an oppressive political/economic system.

Christianity is a peaceful religion. Now there may be some crazed lunatics who try to twist religion to further their own selfish goals, but that doesn't mean I'm going to judge all Christians based on the actions of a few crazed lunatics.
Err, not really. During XVI century the whole europe was covered in blood due to religion wars between protestants and catholics (not to mention crusades, torquemada etc). And communism is not an oppressive regime by default: it has been in history, yes, but it can also be an high ideal for a better society.
VNAF Ace wrote:As for my comment about killing Communists... I was merely responding to yojo's idiotic post calling for a communist revolution. My family didn't risk their lives to escape from a communist ####hole just to stand by and let America be taken over by communists. If communists ever try to take over America, then they'll be fighting against hundreds of millions of freedom-loving Americans (which includes me and my family).
Well, don't worry. I don't foresee a communist invasion to america anytime soon. To be fair, I don't see many communists around at all, since China has gone all-capitalism.

Btw, do you know Freedom Fighters for PS2? You might like that game.
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Post by Turrican »

Acid King wrote:I'm not defending him because I think it's kinda silly to say something like that, but posting any conservative economic viewpoint doesn't seem like a good idea on this forum considering the shitstorms that arise everytime someone does.
imho one can be as conservative as he likes as long as he doesn't grab a gun. :oops: Yeah, I know this is the weirdest thing one could read on a "Shoot'em Up!" forum. ^_^
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Post by VNAF Ace »

Turrican wrote:Well, don't worry. I don't foresee a communist invasion to america anytime soon. To be fair, I don't see many communists around at all, since China has gone all-capitalism.
I'm not THAT paranoid. :lol:

And while China may be capitalist today... the CCP is still has one of the worst human rights records in the world.
Turrican wrote:Btw, do you know Freedom Fighters for PS2? You might like that game.
Yea, I've heard about it. The reviews on GameSpot and IGN said it was a decent (but not great) 3rd person shooter.
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Post by Neon »

Turrican wrote:
VNAF Ace wrote:America is a liberating power, not an imperial power.

As for your idiotic comment about communism...
http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/s ... ign_04.gif
And that number includes several of my family members.

The communists can bring it on. I welcome my first oppurtunity to kill some communist, and avenge my family's honor.
Holy shit, somehow posting on these forums doesn't seem a good idea anymore... You'd really wish to kill guys with different political ideas from yours? Scary. :shock:
Depends how different. My grandfather probably killed a lot of guys who had a different political philosophy from himself in the 40's. But then their political philosophy included concentration camps and invading the rest of Europe.

Anyways, it's hard to disagree that someone who would torture your father for 6 years doesn't deserve death, or better yet a life sentence to a pound-me-in-the-ass federal prison. Can't really put all communists under that umbrella though. I'm sure plenty of people living in North Korea would move if they had the chance.
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Post by Turrican »

Neon wrote:Depends how different. My grandfather probably killed a lot of guys who had a different political philosophy from himself in the 40's. But then their political philosophy included concentration camps and invading the rest of Europe.
Your grandfather (and mines), alas, found himself in that situation that happens so often to humans - called "war". In war, you take lives etc. and it doesn't really matter your ideas, you fight to survive. [and besides, the nazi were the aggressors]

If you come out to kill guys, whatever their political beliefs, at peace's time, well that's a different story. If your granddad would kill a young skinhead tomorrow, he would be wrong and criminal no matter how right-wing the skinhead was.
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Post by Brian »

To the point made about eliminating NASA, I am guessing then that you do not use a cell phone? You don't own a cell phone, you will never use a cell phone and you have no use for cell phones.

I am guessing that you see no benefit to the satelite tracking of hurricanes and tornados?
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Post by FRO »

GaijinPunch wrote:B/c lower class citizens need the money like 1000x more than middle and upper class. If you're struggling to make ends meet on $30k a year, 2% tax raise is enough to really fuck you. If you're struggling to make ends meet on $100k, you need to drop one of your hobbies.
Unless you live in California & are buying a $350,000 (read: modest) house in a good neighborhood.

Seriously, it's all relative. I make decent money, live in a small town, pay peanuts for rent, etc. I struggle paycheck-to-paycheck because I made a lot of mistakes when I was younger, especially when my wife were first married. For example, I made game system collecting & shmup collecting more important for a while than paying my credit card bill. I was #1 in the "Young and Dumb" category. The point is, I've curbed my habit & am MUCH more frugal these days, but based on the mistakes of the past I struggle quite a bit. Tax cuts are a GOOD thing for anybody, no matter how much or how little they make. The expression "Every little bit helps" is very cliche, but it's true. I have just enough money in my account right now to cover my life insurance bill when it comes due in a week & a half. I get paid 2 days later. Once I get that paycheck, it's pretty much all gone to bills. We'll have enough money left over to buy groceries & MAYBE replace the pair of dress pants I had to retire yesterday because they developed holes in them.

The government is doing a responsible thing by cutting taxes because it is effectively them saying "We don't need as much of your money because we're spending less or planning on spending less." To me, that's a good thing.
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Post by captain ahar »

FRO wrote:The government is doing a responsible thing by cutting taxes because it is effectively them saying "We don't need as much of your money because we're spending less or planning on spending less." To me, that's a good thing.
but they're not spending less, they are spending differently. so they give the general populace a very skewed tax cut, and then proceed to further cut down social programs (medicare, housing, education). where exactly is the benefit? if they throw a few hundred dollars at someone (random number) and take away programs, or necessary aid to those programs, how exactly is this bettering the lower/middle class' lot in life.

i used to say that bush was an idiot, and he is, but bush and his administration aren't stupid, they know exactly what they are doing... they are evil.
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Post by Acid King »

Brian wrote:To the point made about eliminating NASA, I am guessing then that you do not use a cell phone? You don't own a cell phone, you will never use a cell phone and you have no use for cell phones.

I am guessing that you see no benefit to the satelite tracking of hurricanes and tornados?
So what you're saying is that telecommunications companies have no interest in keeping those satellites in the air, that only NASA can keep that going... I'm sure Verizon, a company whose total revenue is almost 5 times as much as NASA's budget, would just say fuck it, we don't need a cell phone business!

Likewise for the tracking of hurricanes.... do you think honestly think junking NASA is going to make everyone say "We don't need hurricane tracking"?
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Post by PaCrappa »

Say now, I see alot of bright young pundits flexing their intellect in this thread and I've dreamt up a question. After defense spending, what is in second place? What does the federal government spend the most on after defense/weaponry type stuff? I've always wondered. It can't be education and it wouldn't seem like highways or NASA. Does anyone know?

Thanks in advance,
PaCrappa
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Post by professor ganson »

PaCrappa wrote:Say now, I see alot of bright young pundits flexing their intellect in this thread and I've dreamt up a question. After defense spending, what is in second place? What does the federal government spend the most on after defense/weaponry type stuff? I've always wondered. It can't be education and it wouldn't seem like highways or NASA. Does anyone know?

Thanks in advance,
PaCrappa
Good question. Is it Medicare? Not sure.
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Post by Acid King »

PaCrappa wrote:Say now, I see alot of bright young pundits flexing their intellect in this thread and I've dreamt up a question. After defense spending, what is in second place? What does the federal government spend the most on after defense/weaponry type stuff? I've always wondered. It can't be education and it wouldn't seem like highways or NASA. Does anyone know?

Thanks in advance,
PaCrappa
Social Security.
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captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
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Post by BulletMagnet »

VNAF Ace wrote:America is a liberating power, not an imperial power.
Err, you do know that two or three decades back the U.S. was allied with Saddam Hussein (including funding his weapon programs), and that after we kicked the Soviets out of Afghanistan we left the Taliban in power?

That's not to say that the U.S. hasn't done some good things for the world at large, or that it's no better than anyplace else (believe me, I'd rather be here than North korea or some such place), but when you get right down to it, it's still out for its own interests, the same as any other country, and its actions are ultimately decided by that factor alone. There's no such thing as a "purely" benevolent government.
Acid King wrote:It doesn't disturb me because I don't see how a large, overarching one size fits all federal infrastructure for education can help a country as large and diverse as ours.
I certainly agree that a single hard-and-fast program will work for every kid in any school system (any nitwit can tell you that), which is why I very much oppose the increased emphasis on standardized testing in NCLB. However, methinks it's possible for the government to support public education without completely homogenizing it (though obviously SOME sort of standard can help to a limited extent); unfortunately, few leaders seem to have made that distinction up until now.
As for the government strangling the life from projects, some of them never worked in the first place.
That's undoubtedly true, but the key word here is "some." The current administration would put pretty much any program which has either increased the standing of the working class or lessened the influence of the ruling class under that subheading; that's ideology talking, not the gauging of success or failure.
17 billion dollars, while small in comparison to the total size of our budget, is still a ton of money that could be used elsewhere, if not simply given back to people whom it was taken from.
Granted, I'm not exactly a huge supporter of NASA (I can't help but consider it something of a Cold War relic), but I can't help but wonder what the government would do with all the scientists, etc. who they'd put out of work by getting rid of it...maybe some could be put to work in other fields, but certain specialists, one would guess, would be pretty much out in the cold...
In more human terms, if you paid someone a thousand dollars to fix your roof and they do a shitty job that doesn't improve the problems you have, are you going to pay them an other 1,500 just to have another whack at it?
The analogy's well-taken, but methinks most sensible people would say "hire a better repairman who does things the right way, and pay him instead." The government as it is, in response to most such situations, seems to be saying "Just forget even trying to fix the roof at all, just go and buy yourself a whole new house," without taking into consideration that most people can't afford to do so.
I agree. I think the entirety of the government should be cut in size. I just don't think we should have sacred cows and be averse to cutting funding or scrapping altogether departments and programs that simply don't get results.
Then we more or less agree, in principle anyways. What you'd like to see applied to welfare and education, among other things (as the current administration certainly seems to be applying right now, or at least says it is), I'd like to see applied to the military and breaks for the wealthiest, among other things. At the moment, though, it seems that the "sacred cow" label applies to the latter group.
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Acid King wrote:
PaCrappa wrote:Say now, I see alot of bright young pundits flexing their intellect in this thread and I've dreamt up a question. After defense spending, what is in second place? What does the federal government spend the most on after defense/weaponry type stuff? I've always wondered. It can't be education and it wouldn't seem like highways or NASA. Does anyone know?

Thanks in advance,
PaCrappa
Social Security.
Is that true? The second greatest federal expenditure is currently social security? Do you have a source? Because that doesn't seem possible.

Pa
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Post by professor ganson »

I believe that Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid together make up a larger portion of the total budget than military by itself. Social Security is surely the largest payout of those three entitlement programs, but of course a portion of Social Security is covered by the contributions workers have made to Social Security (which is distinct from taxes). When I said Medicare was the biggest payout above, I was thinking specifically about where our tax dollars go, but this was just a guess. And likely wrong.
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Post by Acid King »

PaCrappa wrote: Is that true? The second greatest federal expenditure is currently social security? Do you have a source? Because that doesn't seem possible.

Pa
I've been trying to source it for awhile but haven't been able to find something. I've heard it dozens of times though.

This site has it though, this site has Defense Department spending as less than Health and Human Services. http://www.federalbudget.com/

Here's some other random budget sites that have info.
http://www.kowaldesign.com/budget/percentages.html
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captpain wrote:Basically, the reason people don't like Bakraid is because they are fat and dumb
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Post by GaijinPunch »

I've been trying to source it for awhile but haven't been able to find something.
Congress' salaries and perks.
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Post by dave4shmups »

Bush simply doesn't understand that "Homeland Security" just might have something to do with how well educated, well-fed, and well-housed Americans are.

I think that cutting those social services is outrageous as well, however, I would also agree with Acid King 100% on taxes-people in this country want more Government services, but they don't want to pay for them. It's absurd.
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Post by Zigfried the Trizealot »

I don't understand how pouring more money into a broken education system would help anything. But maybe that's just my jaded worldview since I live near a corrupt public school district that wastes millions of dollars and delivers horrible results.

//Zig
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Post by The n00b »

I hope Bush spends so much on the military that they finally field some cool ass gundams. That would be so cool, Muslim fundys would be all shalalalalala ackbar it's a trap! and the gundams would all be kicking ass with plasma swords and HUGE cannons. Then Bush would declare himself emperor and everyone would go all Red Dawn on his ass. Then afterwards America would declare itself the new republic and we could all watch Muhammed anime and the muslims would be "that's cool."
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Post by ST Dragon »

VNAF Ace wrote:America is a liberating power, not an imperial power.

As for your idiotic comment about communism...
http://www.protestwarrior.com/nimages/s ... ign_04.gif
And that number includes several of my family members.

The communists can bring it on. I welcome my first oppurtunity to kill some communists, and avenge my family's honor.
You're an ignorant & arrogant little man.

All that non-sense your government has been feeding you all these years, concerning "War against Terror", "Preserving World Peace, Freedom & Human Rights", is laughable.
It’s just a very clever/convenient excuse to justify its military occupation on other “evil” countries. Where as all they care for is money, oil & to establish their economical/military interests in these areas.

I really don’t know how your government enforces peace & freedom by killing children in Iraq, Afghanistan & Africa or by bombing European Countries like Yugoslavia, with Uranium Enriched bombs (1999), occupying Tahiti in 1994, or by torturing prisoners of war in Iraq, etc… and all that in the name of human rights & freedom.

Some of the most ruthless & fierce dictatorships that plagued Latin America in the last century, were all established by the US government.

Thousands of Americans died in Vietnam and even more Vietnamese during the so-called “War against Communism” and all that for nothing, just because the US government of the time convinced its people for the rightfulness of the cause & to test/sell Arms.

By the way, your comments & reasoning on killing off Communists & other people with different political / religious beliefs than your own, are no different to what Hitler did against the Jews (And other political/religious minorities), in the 1940s.

Try reading some non-American objective history sources.

In the mean time, your over all statements are laughable.
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Post by PaCrappa »

VNAF Ace wrote:Communist terrorists in Vietnam murdered one of my aunts, stole my great-grandfather's medical license, stole my grandfather's business and house (which he had earned through decades of hard work), and fired on the refugee boat that my mom and aunt escaped in. They also jailed and tortured my father from 1975 to 1981 just because he served in the South Vietnamese Air Force (VNAF).

No one messes with my family. They started this war, but I'm going to finish it.
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Post by Neon »

*pulls Walker Texas Ranger lever*
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Post by BulletMagnet »

*clip of kid jumping off of a high spot while the guy who's supposed to catch him moves out of the way for some reason*

"I am shocked and appalled!"

*pulls lever again*
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Post by VNAF Ace »

ST Dragon wrote:All that non-sense your government has been feeding you all these years, concerning "War against Terror", "Preserving World Peace, Freedom & Human Rights", is laughable.
What do you propose we do then? Stick or heads in the ground and ignore the fact that the terrorists have declared war on anyone who doesn't share their insane interpretation of Islam?

In other words, that means America IS NOT their only target!
ST Dragon wrote:It’s just a very clever/convenient excuse to justify its military occupation on other “evil” countries. Where as all they care for is money, oil & to establish their economical/military interests in these areas.
If liberating Afghanistan and Iraq was just for oil, then why have gas prices gone up?

And of course, America gets benefits. In the form of cooperation with new allies. Both parties benefit.
ST Dragon wrote:I really don’t know how your government enforces peace & freedom by killing children in Iraq, Afghanistan & Africa or by bombing European Countries like Yugoslavia, with Uranium Enriched bombs (1999), occupying Tahiti in 1994, or by torturing prisoners of war in Iraq, etc… and all that in the name of human rights & freedom.
The US military doesn't intentionally bomb civilians. We spent billions of dollars on smart weapons to avoid hitting civilians!

As for torture... Don't judge the rest of America based on the actions of a FEW idiots.
ST Dragon wrote:Some of the most ruthless & fierce dictatorships that plagued Latin America in the last century, were all established by the US government.
The American gov't of 2006 =/= the American gov't of the past.

Just like...

The German gov't of 2006 =/= The German gov't of 1939.
ST Dragon wrote:Thousands of Americans died in Vietnam and even more Vietnamese during the so-called “War against Communism” and all that for nothing, just because the US government of the time convinced its people for the rightfulness of the cause & to test/sell Arms.
The North Vietnamese started the war (with the support of the Chinese and the Soviets).

South Vietnam needed help, and America responded.
ST Dragon wrote:By the way, your comments & reasoning on killing off Communists & other people with different political / religious beliefs than your own, are no different to what Hitler did against the Jews (And other political/religious minorities), in the 1940s.
Excuse me for fighting against an oppressive form of gov't.
ST Dragon wrote:Try reading some non-American objective history sources.

In the mean time, your over all statements are laughable.
I'm a expert on the Vietnam War. And trust me, I didn't get all of my info from the liberal crap in the majority of American history books. My family lived through it. My father fought in it. I think I know the history of my own people.
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