PS1 is an underrated console for shoot 'em ups?

[Sumez]

Yeah you'd be crazy to say that Saturn doesn't come out on top when it comes to shooters. That's not saying PlayStation didn't have some great ones, but it had so much other stuff going for it as well, and especially at the time I think anyone into shmups had a Saturn - it was my sole reason for owning one back then, but I haven't touched it much in recent years, since there are better ways to play a majority of the games I bought it for.

But yeah, I think describing the Saturn as "a 2D powerhouse" with the PS1 not being able to do 2D as well is twisting reality. PS1 can do pixel perfect 2D graphics perfectly well, but the difference is simply that it doesn't have an actual 2D rendering graphics mode like older consoles (and the Saturn) did. This means that to display 2D graphics it needed to do exactly what every single 2D game created over the last two or so decades have done - display the graphics as a flat texture, scaled to even pixels. This is completely adequate for almost any situation, but if an arcade game would use per-scanline raster effects that would probably be harder for a 3D system to emulate. I think those were already pretty rare at the time, though. The only example pointed out in that DigitalFoundry video is the slightly wavy background in the underwater section of Gokujou Parodius.
I think the primary advantage Saturn had over PlayStation when it came to 2D games wasn't the 2D hardware itself, but the RAM expansion cartridge, which allowed for loading in more detailed animations in the few games that used it.

[MintyTheCat]

I think the primary advantage Saturn had over PlayStation when it came to 2D games wasn't the 2D hardware itself, but the RAM expansion cartridge, which allowed for loading in more detailed animations in the few games that used it.

Due to this the Saturn had many decent ports of heavier games - lots of NeoGeo games for a start. Tbh I never really bothered with the ports though on the Saturn from the NeoGeo.

[davyK]

There are quite a few ports across PS1/Sat that seems to be more or less equivalent (thinking about the Konami Gradius/Parodius/Twinbee games et al). It allows one to box clever when it comes to prices if collecting across the 2 platforms. But those aren't particularly challenging games to reproduce on 32bit consoles.

The DDP ports are held with equal contempt. I've heard that Strikers 1945 1 & 2 have the honours even with each console having a better job done of one of the games.

PS1, just like Saturn, also has some splendid exclusives such as Gradius Gaiden and the Raiden and RType games.

Saturn probably has a better rep because it's an arcade focussed console while the PS1 was the first console that really had home designed games or ports with lots of added value. So I can see how the Saturn has the enhanced rep. It has a better controller too of course.

But overall when it comes to 2D shooters I'd say the PS1 is under-rated; at least among casuals.

Re 2D fighters I don't see the PS1 as a serious alternative to Saturn simply because of the expansion port and the heavy backing by Capcom.

[neorichieb1971]

As a collector since I joined this site somewhere around 2001 (yes 20 years ago) I've seen it all.

These are the reasons I think the Saturn over shadows the PS1

Game aging - PS1 had a few pseudo 3D titles, polygons on the system mostly dated very quickly. Sprites did not age as much.
Game Pad - Saturn had a better joypad, its D-pad is a circular plate which (for me anyway) gives a better response than that silly PS1 d-pad.
Imports - The USA/EU output was lousy, so most folks went to Japanese imports and the games that were playable were fighters and shooters.
Exclusives - Saturn had a raft of exclusives not seen on the PS1. Although, same could be said for the PS1 as well.
RAM - Saturn had 1MB extra RAM, some 2D games had extra RAM cart animations.
Folklore - 2D was better on the Saturn (if you believe in the folklore). Mainly due to the RAM upgrades I suspect. If you put 7MB on the Ps1 system, i'm pretty sure it would have competed. The lesser powerful neo geo still holds its own with its wealth of RAM.


As for pricing.

Shooters on 32bit systems between 2000-2010 held their own. Shooters were probably the most likely to be spiked in price as the games don't age in a way like a racer does. There has always been a niche around shooters. But nowadays there are many ways to play old games cheaply and the only reason a 16 bit shooter costs the earth is because you want a complete in box example in brand new condition.

The original games complete in box won't suddenly be re-printed. Therefore the price will stick until the age group of collectors reaches a point that nobody remembers 16bit and 32bit games anymore. At which point the demand will drop like a bomb. The dynamic could change though. As someone who watches UK auction shows where antiques are being sold, it blows my mind that a 120 year old item will sell for $80, when my 25 year old Sunset Riders on SNES will go north of $400. My most expensive retail game is Musha on Genesis, which has pipped the $1000 mark a few times in recent memory.

There are many other factors that contribute to the collectors market.

1) Price charting - The stock market of videogames (https://www.pricecharting.com/game/sega-genesis/musha) - The bible of what your games are worth.

I would like to add that pricecharting is great, except for the category of CIB (complete in box). As graded is pristine, loose is loose. But when it comes to CIB the condition is king and the price varies a lot.

2) Youtube - All these crazy people going to flea markets picking up $1000 games for $10.
3) Game collectors on youtube - People buying enough games that from the front door to the back door of said house, its a gaming museum
4) Retro shows - Places where professional stalls sell videogames

There is still a huge market for retro videogames. The reason being is that most games today are simulators with a twist of fantasy, at least anything AAA. You won't see a Sonic AAA game anymore because it lands in an area of artistic licence of freedom and the audiences won't buy it.

And the weird thing is, the Saturn/PS1/N64 era was the era where I bought the most games new. I bought over 100 new games in that 5 year spell, which compared to today, is about 20 times the volume of what I would buy on PS5/Xbox.

I still think Saturn and PS1 games are under rated.

edit - Price charting on Harmful park shows this history- https://www.pricecharting.com/game/jp-p ... rmful+park

[Austin]

A big reason I think the Saturn steals its thunder is that importing has traditionally been much easier on that platform. No mod chip requirement, weird disc swapping or the necessity of an import console, for instance.

I don't think that's really true.
Chipped PS1 are ubiquitous, there are hundreds and thousands more of those out there, than modded Saturns or import cartridges. It was definitely easier to import on that platform than any other console at the time.
Although they were traditionally used to run "backups", it feels like that was one of the primary sources of the PlayStation's popularity in the first place. Of my three PS1s, two of them randomly happened to be modded, and I had no hand in doing that.

See, I have to disagree there. Yes, mod chips were ubiquitous with the PS1, but did that lead to people actually importing games? I feel like it was more of a piracy thing, or for playing derpy cancelled games like Thrill Kill. For a lot of modded console players Stateside I highly doubt import PS1 titles were on their radar.

I'm not sure how it was overseas, but over here Saturn was pretty well known for its ability to play imports with ease. Mainstream video game stores back then like Electronics Boutique even carried a healthy amount of Japanese Saturn games with the converter carts. I could literally walk up to my mall and buy Radiant Silvergun (and I did).

What a time to be alive. I sorta miss those days.

[bigbadboaz]

Sorry.. of course it did. If you're getting everything for free, you're taking every damn game you can get your hands on - domestic, import, unreleased, whatever. And if people were going to be tracking down something as esoteric as Thrill Kill, why wouldn't they be aware of and also tracking down well-reputed import titles.

But enough about pirates: we're really talking about enthusiasts here if we're talking about importing. They (WE) were the people who actually got chips in order to play titles locked out from them, the people who were still going to respect the hobby and pay for our games. We did this expressly for imports. So, back to the fact that PS1 modchips were everywhere - those interested in importing certainly were doing it on PS1, and I would argue there were many more there than on the Saturn side.

1) Price charting - The bible of what your games are worth.

Gotta throw something in about this site.. I've been doing some selling the last few months, I've been fortunate to have a few sales that blow their recorded values out of the water, and they don't show up ANYWHERE in their listings. I'm talking publicly visible sales that in multiple cases are now on the record for over two months. So I have no idea what algorithm they use, or if they actually take that freakin' long to get on top of things. It's not impressive at all for site with a dedicated purpose.

So.. take them as an extremely vague ballpark only. On the plus side, as a seller, it would indicate you can actually hope for significantly better than what you'd think from the site.

[Sumez]

but did that lead to people actually importing games? I feel like it was more of a piracy thing

Oh it absolutely was. But I just don't think saying it was easier to import on Saturn has any truth to it.

[MrOldSchoolCool]

For what it's worth, over the past 10 years or so I've seen way more people talking about importing Saturn games than PS1 games. Maybe not on this site.. but everywhere else, yes. And shoot 'em ups always seem to be the first type of games mentioned for Saturn imports.

[Sumez]

Importing is definitely more popular on Saturn (at least compared to its install base) because you pretty much need to do it to get a majority of the good games on it - I was just saying the reason isn't that it's easier to import for Saturn.

[Flashman]

I love the PS1 for shmups - as mentioned exclusives like Gradius Gaiden and Einhander are both amazing (I was lucky enough to pick up a Japanese version of the latter at a fraction of what it usually goes for on eBay). Also the Saturn never had Raiden Project and Raiden DX - both of which are now only just becoming obsolete thanks to A.A. The PS1 version of In The Hunt is amazing too, though I went Japanese on that too as the PAL version is some silly money and a decent copy only comes up every now and then on eBay. Sonic wings special is also pretty decent (though again expensive now, I got it for cheap a few years back).


For the budget gamer out there you can still get some bargains - the PAL version of Strikers 1945 (which is actually Strikers 2) is a £5.00 game, Gun Bird ain't far behind, though for some bizarre reason it's repackaged as "Mobile Light Force" with some retarded Charlies Angels type theme on the front cover - something which isn't ever made reference to in the actual game, no character changes or anything.

[Redfox]

Having owned both systems (modded Saturn with pro action replay) and an original PS1. I can say that it was easier to import on Saturn but harder to pirate vs easier to do either on PlayStation. To import on Saturn I had my cart, then I'd buy my import game and done. While to pirate it I'd also have to chip the system, ugh. While on PS1 I could just do the swap trick (granted in either case it cost me a lot of startup money since a burner in 1998 was 300 dollars for me and that's a lot for a high school student)

As for on topic. PS1 had some good shooters, but I think Saturn had more and better so............yeah PS1 is underrated to me.

[To Far Away Times]

Well, in non-shmup land I feel like the PS1 is wildly overrated. The two biggest must play games of the generation, Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time, are N64 exclusives. PS1's library, at it's very best and most generous, starts with the third best game of the generation or later. Whether that be FFVII, RE2, Metal Gear Solid, or whatever.

That being said, in terms of shmups I think the PS1's strengths are pretty well known, with beloved entries in big series like Gradius, R-Type, and Darius making a big splash, sometimes as an exclusive as well. I'd certainly put it at the top of its generation. You also get Einhander, which has some casual clout due to being a Square Enix developed game.

[Bassa-Bassa]

The two biggest must play games of the generation, Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time

FFVII, RE2, Metal Gear Solid

Lolwat.

[Creamy Goodness]

From a completely uneducated perspective...

Doesn't the PS1 actually have like 15 or 20 more shmups and for multiplatform games the PS1 held its own if not had better versions of the games. It seems like the main advantage for the Saturn is it had a few more high profile exclusives like Batsugun, Garegga, and the Cotton sequels.

[heli]

No the Saturn games have TATE mode, PS1 does not have, thats why all PS1 games suck compared to Saturn.
+ Saturn have floating point 3D, makes it suck more.
Exclusives ?, horizontal.

[Bassa-Bassa]

The only PS1 title without tate option is Shienryu, if I'm not mistaken. Well, Detana Twin Bee as well, but that's the same on Saturn.

And the only titles with a better PS1 version are Raystorm, Dodonpachi and Strikers 1945 (or was it 1945 II?). Maybe Sonic Wings Special too? Memory fails.

[heli]

Oh, i was reading it has to do with memory, that saturn have more or something.

[Sumez]

Only Saturn supports turning your TV on the side :3

[Bassa-Bassa]

And the only titles with a better PS1 version are Raystorm, Dodonpachi and Strikers 1945 (or was it 1945 II?). Maybe Sonic Wings Special too? Memory fails.

And In the Hunt is said to be more palatable on PS1, as well, I forgot.

[Tarma]

I think one of the endurring reasons for the Saturn's retrospective success over the PS1 with something like shmups, was it's contemporary failure - a lot of people have gone back to the Saturn who ignored it when it was current because the PS1 at the time was the console to have. This has helped build a good legacy for the Saturn, something that probably could not have been foreseen at the time, especially as it was only a real success in Japan.

Sony's decision to include backward compatibility with PS1 on PS2 - I would hazard a guess plays into why the PS1 is underrated for a number of things. I still have my launch edition PS1 Dual-Shock console from Japan, but generally I play 99% of my PS1 games on my PS2 (the 1% are the games that don't run properly on PS2). So the PS2 becomes something of a catch-all for both consoles... if that makes any sense?

Another reason is probably because the vast majority of the PS1's hits have been made available on more modern hardware, usually as digital content. There isn't much that wasn't successful on the PS1 that can now be downloaded on the PS3 / PS4... and games like the Resident Evil series are available on virutally everything! Many of the shmups are available elsewhere, apart from some really obscure stuff. Saturn games, and their versions, only ever made it to Saturn.

[BrianC]

The only PS1 title without tate option is Shienryu, if I'm not mistaken. Well, Detana Twin Bee as well, but that's the same on Saturn.

And the only titles with a better PS1 version are Raystorm, Dodonpachi and Strikers 1945 (or was it 1945 II?). Maybe Sonic Wings Special too? Memory fails.

Gunbird (even the non MLF version) also lacks tate mode, though Strikers 1945 II has it. The Raidens, 2D Xevious games in Xevious 3D/G+, and the Donpachis also have it. Some games only run in 240p in tate mode (the 2D Xevious games in 3D/G+ are a good example of this).

[Creamy Goodness]

The only PS1 title without tate option is Shienryu, if I'm not mistaken. Well, Detana Twin Bee as well, but that's the same on Saturn.

And the only titles with a better PS1 version are Raystorm, Dodonpachi and Strikers 1945 (or was it 1945 II?). Maybe Sonic Wings Special too? Memory fails.

I think Thunder Force V and Darius Gaiden are also on that list of games where the PS1 is seen as having the better versions.

[Sengoku Strider]

I think Thunder Force V and Darius Gaiden are also on that list of games where the PS1 is seen as having the better versions.

That's funny, I typically hear the opposite. Although I think with TFV it's an apples and oranges comparison, they each do something the other version doesn't.

[MintyTheCat]

No the Saturn games have TATE mode, PS1 does not have, thats why all PS1 games suck compared to Saturn.
+ Saturn have floating point 3D, makes it suck more.
Exclusives ?, horizontal.

PS1 DDP supports tate mode.

[MintyTheCat]

I think Thunder Force V and Darius Gaiden are also on that list of games where the PS1 is seen as having the better versions.

That's funny, I typically hear the opposite. Although I think with TFV it's an apples and oranges comparison, they each do something the other version doesn't.

I prefer the Saturn TF-V port personally.

[Klatrymadon]

The PS1 version of Gaiden is nowhere near as solid and consistent as the Saturn version. It has a nice exclusive CG intro and some of the best cover art ever, but apart from these paratextual elements there aren't many reasons to play it over the Saturn version or even over MAME emulation. It's sluggish and unpredictable, with jerky-looking scrolling and slowdown in places that feel unnatural and unrelated to anything happening onscreen. The music also frequently fails to start, for me, although that one could be a hardware issue. About the only genuine plus point I can think of is that it might allow the saving of scores. It was an outsourced job by Interbec, which likely explains its issues, whereas the Saturn port was developed in-house.

[BIL]

Yeah, Saturn Darius Gaiden is one of the most universally-preferred ports I can think of. These days, I consider the imperfections of that "almost arcade perfect" generation to be part of their charm (yo! where my trees?! :O), but even ignoring the F3 cart entirely, it's a better game on Saturn. PS1 version was always rarer and pricier, too (comparing NTSCJ). A true curio.

A good quick breakdown by ACSeraph

[bigbadboaz]

Yep, Saturn versions of TFV and DGaiden every time, and by a clear margin. Both play into the machine's native strengths.

[Bassa-Bassa]

It was an outsourced job by Interbec, which likely explains its issues, whereas the Saturn port was developed in-house.

I've just asked about this as I was curious and PS1 DG was not developed by Interbec from a Taito outsourcing venture, the latter only licensed it to Interbec since Taito didn't have any intention to make a PS1 version (like it happened with Rayforce). Interbec actually outsourced it to Nexus Interact (known by those subpar ports of Viewpoint for 16bit machines).

The Saturn port wasn't developed inhouse, either, but outsourced to Ai System (for what ended up being its best port job for Taito, it seems, though I'm also told that some of the background effects aren't perfectly replicated).

Interesting, isn't it?

[Rastan78]

All the differences we know about so far on the Saturn port of DG:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=68121

Interesting to know that it was outsourced. It's far from arcade perfect, but a great version of the game in it's own right. The various rank differences that serve to make the Saturn version an easier game overall are probably the biggest change.