Is the Sharp X68000 the absolute best retro system ever?

[FinalBaton]

@Hoagtec @Austin I'm always fascinated by MSX platform and keep asking questions about it, I think it's inevitable that I'll be getting one at some point

Idk that system just speaks to me

[Hoagtech]

@Hoagtec @Austin I'm always fascinated by MSX platform and keep asking questions about it, I think it's inevitable that I'll be getting one at some point

Idk that system just speaks to me

Its pretty dope. And it has the Spirit of Hideo Kojima floating around as the MSX platform was where he started his first major software projects.

Once you go nemesis 2 tho. It becomes constant infatuation. I have never seen an expert curve so steep with unlockable secret weapons.

I had my Sony HitBit F1XDJ MSX2+ on pause for 70+ hrs to originally get through the asteroid level with the UPBEAM still attached.

I cant say I've had to or "wanted to" do that with another version of Gradius.

[SamIAm]

To me, the X68000 looks like a boat: You don't want to own one, you want to be friends with a guy who owns one.

The list of good games on the system that are either exclusive or the best version available is very short, even by generous measures. Every time I consider picking one up, I always come back to the conclusion that the time and money would be better spent building a dedicated MAME PC and keeping an X68k emulator on it.

[SuperDeadite]

To me, the X68000 looks like a boat: You don't want to own one, you want to be friends with a guy who owns one.

The list of good games on the system that are either exclusive or the best version available is very short, even by generous measures. Every time I consider picking one up, I always come back to the conclusion that the time and money would be better spent building a dedicated MAME PC and keeping an X68k emulator on it.

X68k emulation is decent, but certainly not a complete experience, there are a lot of special controlers and wierd stuff like 3D that will never be emulated. The library is a healthy size, but you do need to look beyond the basics, and get into the adult and doujin games too. Great system if it clicks with you, most newer buyers either sell it off within a few months, or keep forever.

[SamIAm]

X68k emulation is decent, but certainly not a complete experience, there are a lot of special controlers and wierd stuff like 3D that will never be emulated. The library is a healthy size, but you do need to look beyond the basics, and get into the adult and doujin games too. Great system if it clicks with you, most newer buyers either sell it off within a few months, or keep forever.

That's kind of what I mean, though. The peripherals, the doujin games, even the adult stuff, they're all things I'm pretty sure I'd enjoy experiencing in their true form once or twice, and that's about it. Don't get me wrong, there are a few games I'd love to have real-hardware access to at any time...but it's just a few, and that's not enough.

Props for sharing all the doujin stuff that you have, by the way.

[SuperDeadite]

Still a lot of vids I want to do, just no time sadly.

[Classicgamer]

As a side note, the RGB scart plugs in Japan...

It's been said multiple times that "SCART" does not refer solely to the connector, and this is backed up by both Wikipedia and the documents that I linked, so I think it's a bit disingenuous and misleading to refer to JP-21 as SCART; I can only see it confusing those who don't already understand that they are two separate things.

Regardless of what documents you find on the internet, that is not the reality on the ground. Scart is just a plug type. The signals a display or a other device can handle are dictated by the specific chassis, not by any sort of "scart standard".

A display having a scart port is a guarantee of nothing except composite video. It doesn't tell you anything about color space compatibility, refresh rate, resolution or even voltage.

Aside from the sync on composite video there is no difference between the RGB you get via a scart cable and RGB via BNC plugs or a DB15 cable. There is certainly nothing specific to a scart standard that would break a display.

[Guspaz]

The reality on the ground is that the SCART pinout is standardized, and actually followed (albeit with poor adherence to electrical specifications), and JP-21 has a completely different pinout with most of the pins in different places. Composite video is not on the same pins, so you can't connect a JP-21 cable to a SCART display and expect composite video to work.

JP-21 does not use a "SCART" connector. It uses a TTC-003 connector. It just happens to have the same shape as a SCART connector.

[Classicgamer]

I've wanted a X68000 as well for all of its arcade ports. I planned to drop a considerable chunk of change on one a couple of years ago, but inconveniently had other financial hurdles crop up and I put it on the back burner. Looking at it now it would be hard to justify for the price, so I'm definitely looking forward to a fully functioning MiSTer core to get my fix.

Having looked into its library, the games really do look fantastic. Some of the CPS1 ports I have seen however don't appear to be entirely flawless conversions so it's best to get that straight before taking the plunge. Final Fight for instance, the indoor area on stage 1 lacks the flashing lighting, the moving subway section lacks the passing trains in the background, and needless to say the three enemy limit is disappointing (the Sega CD version has a four enemy limit, still significantly less than the arcade game, but improved over the X68K version). That said, the ports still come far closer than anything else at the time and that's interesting to me.

Regarding the MSX talk, it's a different beast all together for obvious reasons. For people that like 8-bit stuff though I do think it's worth checking out. I have never owned actual hardware but emulated it frequently. Many of its arcade ports are a lot of fun, and I have a major soft spot for its Gradius/Nemesis games. The choppy screen scrolling takes some time to adjust to, but once you get used to it the games themselves are simply fun.

It's always hard to balance this hobby with life's financial challenges. Intellectually an X68000 purchase doesn't make much sense in 2019. But, as a huge arcade fan who grew up in the 80's and 90's playing disappointing home ports, it's hard not to be curious about these machines.

This is a machine from 1987 that could do the one thing all serious gamers wanted but couldn't have - an arcade perfect SF2 port. While some other games on the 68000 were limited in some way by the hardware, they still look far closer to the arcade than anything else we had at the time.

I'm usually OK with emulation of older machines but it wouldn't scratch this particular itch. My curiosity is about what it was actually like to play these games on the machine the Japanese called the "God computer". As I've never seen the original hardware, I'd have nothing to compare the emulation to.

I'd be most interested in comparing SF2 CE on Groovymame to playing it natively on the x68000 and comparing both to my original PCB. I like nerdy stuff like that.

For now, I'm grateful we have guys like SuperDeadite to make videos of the system. That'll have to do until I can find a deal on one or find someone who lives close with one.

[donluca]

As a side note, the RGB scart plugs in Japan...

It's been said multiple times that "SCART" does not refer solely to the connector, and this is backed up by both Wikipedia and the documents that I linked, so I think it's a bit disingenuous and misleading to refer to JP-21 as SCART; I can only see it confusing those who don't already understand that they are two separate things.

SCART *IS* just a connector which is able to carry any kind of signal.

It doesn't matter whatever the specs were given if all the TV producers didn't give a flying fuck about them.

Truth is that LOTS of TVs had SCART connectors with only Composite and mono audio connected and you were stuck with it, which is why there are several consoles and VHS Players which have sync wired as composite video.

There have been even contexts where S-Video was put through a SCART connectors (mainly on old Super8 cameras) and only a handful of TV were able to support it.

Always remember that while there have been standards, producers always did whatever the hell they wanted and were seldom following the documents provided.

So, yeah, you can go on and share what Wiki or tech docs say about SCART, but then you might end up with a TV which has a "SCART connector" and when you connect your console you'll be greeted with a beautiful black screen and (mono) audio only.

"BUT MUH RESOURCES SAID THAT SCART = RGB!!!11!11!! THERE ARE TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS!!1!!1!!!"

etc. etc.

EDIT: and just one more thing. You'll notice that most people telling you that "SCART is just a connector" are from Europe, and that's because we've been fucked in the ass more times than we could possibly count about this whole "RGB" thing and we're trying to warn other people before they go and spend money on some equipment thinking that just because there's a SCART connector they'll get RGB.

Those are things I've seen running through a SCART cable throughout my life:

RGBs
RGsB (mainly sony equipment)
S-Video
Composite Video
A strange signal somehow resembling Component, but was really more a RGsB with YUV color. I think it was something proprietary to Panasonic.

and an old, forgotten to gods digital video format, which wasn't SDI, but something that even predates that and can't really remember anything about that as I just read that on some ancient AudioVideo magazine. I think it was about a Projector.

[fernan1234]

It's not even clear what point is trying to be argued for there... But I guess we can all agree that SCART is awful, no matter how it is defined, and it is unfortunate that it became synonymous with RGB in the minds of many retro gaming and video quality enthusiasts. But at this point we have many other options.

In any event, this whole digression from the topic was prompted by ShootTheCore's simple recommendation to avoid using SCART (however defined) with an X68000 computer. It's good advice no matter how you look at it.

[Classicgamer]

As a side note, the RGB scart plugs in Japan...

It's been said multiple times that "SCART" does not refer solely to the connector, and this is backed up by both Wikipedia and the documents that I linked, so I think it's a bit disingenuous and misleading to refer to JP-21 as SCART; I can only see it confusing those who don't already understand that they are two separate things.

SCART *IS* just a connector which is able to carry any kind of signal.

It doesn't matter whatever the specs were given if all the TV producers didn't give a flying fuck about them.

Truth is that LOTS of TVs had SCART connectors with only Composite and mono audio connected and you were stuck with it, which is why there are several consoles and VHS Players which have sync wired as composite video.

There have been even contexts where S-Video was put through a SCART connectors (mainly on old Super8 cameras) and only a handful of TV were able to support it.

Always remember that while there have been standards, producers always did whatever the hell they wanted and were seldom following the documents provided.

So, yeah, you can go on and share what Wiki or tech docs say about SCART, but then you might end up with a TV which has a "SCART connector" and when you connect your console you'll be greeted with a beautiful black screen and (mono) audio only.

"BUT MUH RESOURCES SAID THAT SCART = RGB!!!11!11!! THERE ARE TECHNICAL DOCUMENTS!!1!!1!!!"

etc. etc.

EDIT: and just one more thing. You'll notice that most people telling you that "SCART is just a connector" are from Europe, and that's because we've been fucked in the ass more times than we could possibly count about this whole "RGB" thing and we're trying to warn other people before they go and spend money on some equipment thinking that just because there's a SCART connector they'll get RGB.

Those are things I've seen running through a SCART cable throughout my life:

RGBs
RGsB (mainly sony equipment)
S-Video
Composite Video
A strange signal somehow resembling Component, but was really more a RGsB with YUV color. I think it was something proprietary to Panasonic.

and an old, forgotten to gods digital video format, which wasn't SDI, but something that even predates that and can't really remember anything about that as I just read that on some ancient AudioVideo magazine. I think it was about a Projector.

Exactly right.

Being a serious gamer in the 80 and 90's in Europe meant buying NTSC consoles from America and Japan and trying to find a TV in the 50hz pal world that could play it. Anyone with direct experience would be familiar with the problem and lack of standards (unless they only bought Sony and Toshiba TVs). And there was rarely any helpful info in the manual or Dixons staff...

You could never take anything for granted. There was so many times where hooking up my Super Famicom resulted in that rolling screen (50hz only TVs), no image or black and white (no RGB or NTSC compatibility), a dull image (no .7 rgb compatibility), borders on US full screen games (only compatible with NTSC 4.43 instead of 3.58) or a poor image (a scart cable only wired for composite video).

[Classicgamer]

It's not even clear what point is trying to be argued for there... But I guess we can all agree that SCART is awful, no matter how it is defined, and it is unfortunate that it became synonymous with RGB in the minds of many retro gaming and video quality enthusiasts. But at this point we have many other options.

In any event, this whole digression from the topic was prompted by ShootTheCore's simple recommendation to avoid using SCART (however defined) with an X68000 computer. It's good advice no matter how you look at it.

Exactly wrong.

RGB scart tv's were awesome. You just had to find one that could handle 60hz RGB and the only way to be sure was to take your import console to the shop when you bought a new TV. We would have been stuck with squashed slow pal consoles without rgb scart tv's.

Americans were denied access to a quality video input from their consoles for most of the CRT era. If you invested in a decent Sony Trinitron in Europe it doubled as an excellent arcade monitor and RGB display for consoles. Far less expensive than investing in a decent pro broadcast monitor here in America.

Pretty much every console from the Master System to the PS3 output analog RGB via scart cables.

[nmalinoski]

Regardless of what documents you find on the internet, that is not the reality on the ground. Scart is just a plug type. The signals a display or a other device can handle are dictated by the specific chassis, not by any sort of "scart standard".

A display having a scart port is a guarantee of nothing except composite video. It doesn't tell you anything about color space compatibility, refresh rate, resolution or even voltage.

I'm not sure I follow your argument. You assert that SCART isn't a standard, but then later contradict that assertion by admitting it has a minimum guarantee of composite video.

I'm also not sure how not defining color spaces, refresh rates, or resolutions (voltages and impedances are specified) means that SCART is not and/or cannot be a standard. That would be a sensible rebuttal if someone claimed that SCART is a video standard, but I don't see where anyone has made that argument.

...Truth is that LOTS of TVs had SCART connectors with only Composite and mono audio connected and you were stuck with it, which is why there are several consoles and VHS Players which have sync wired as composite video.
...
So, yeah, you can go on and share what Wiki or tech docs say about SCART, but then you might end up with a TV which has a "SCART connector" and when you connect your console you'll be greeted with a beautiful black screen and (mono) audio only.
...
EDIT: and just one more thing. You'll notice that most people telling you that "SCART is just a connector" are from Europe, and that's because we've been fucked in the ass more times than we could possibly count about this whole "RGB" thing and we're trying to warn other people before they go and spend money on some equipment thinking that just because there's a SCART connector they'll get RGB.

I think we're talking about two different things.

All I'm trying to do is show that SCART has a formal definition and is therefore a standard, not just a particular style of plug. That standard appears to have a minimum requirement of composite video and mono audio for color televisions. If people are buying televisions that only conform to that bare minimum, erroneously assuming it supports RGB support, then that's a separate issue that I agree should be addressed.

A somewhat similar issue here in the US is that YPbPr component support does not automatically mean ED or HD support; there are a lot of CRT televisions (and the RetroTINK 2X) that have YPbPr component inputs, but they only support 15kHz, and feeding a 15kHz-only display with 31kHz or more has the potential to cause damage.

It's not even clear what point is trying to be argued for there... But I guess we can all agree that SCART is awful, no matter how it is defined, and it is unfortunate that it became synonymous with RGB in the minds of many retro gaming and video quality enthusiasts. But at this point we have many other options.

I think SCART became synonymous with RGB because there was support for it; there were first-party SCART cables wired for RGB sold in Europe (and I imagine there were first-party, RGB-capable JP-21 cables sold in Japan). I think that was the most practical way to get RGB out of these consoles until recently.

[fernan1234]

Yes, but I'm talking about the present. At present we luckily have different and better ways to stick RGB into our monitors other than clunky SCART.

[maxtherabbit]

Yes, but I'm talking about the present. At present we luckily have different and better ways to stick RGB into our monitors other than clunky SCART.

yes

BNC > VGA > steaming coil of dog shit > SCART

[SuperDeadite]

Back on topic, X68000's port of Syvalion is fantastic. But it only really feels right when played with the trackball, also this port actually uses 240p for gameplay and switches to 480i for the intermission screens. (one of the very few x68000 games to use interlaced video an odd choice since system does 24/31khz progressive anyway). Perfect example of the x68000 mindset. Go hardcore awesome but a bitch for those on a tight budget.

[Hoagtech]

I think we all know what the other person “means” and are trying to over articulate their point of view.

HDMI is a standard but can be improved over long distances with cat 6 Ethernet connections.

Even though cat6 Ethernet cable has as standard as well as hdmi. People and companies break the rules and so have the industry.

Beharbros toro is a good example of combining HV sync and outputting over scart. Try and find that in the French standard.

Superdeadite is definitely the superior opinion here.

He’s written the book on this and his topics have spurred me to buy one and I love it.

(although experiencing the Panasonic 3DO really started to make me wonder what other gaming experiences did I miss out on?)

Let’s all compromise and help each other instead of defining our points for no reason.

[maxtherabbit]

I feel like having a MVS is a superior and cheaper option these days. That said I'd still kinda like an x68k because the 68k is my favorite micro

[donluca]

Thinking this one aloud: are people after the x68k to get perfect arcade ports?

Because you can get lots of those in their original, arcade PCB form for almost the same price as the x68k minus all the issues. They just need a super gun.

And with CPS2, CPS1 and MVS multis floating around, getting an x68k just to play the ports instead of the "original" games seems a bit ridiculous.

[Steamflogger Boss]

Let’s all compromise and help each other instead of defining our points for no reason.

Whoa whoa whoa let's not get crazy here.

[DejahThoris]

I feel like having a MVS is a superior and cheaper option these days. That said I'd still kinda like an x68k because the 68k is my favorite micro

It's not really comparable. There's only a very narrow overlap of libraries at all and one of them can't be used as a computer.

[SuperDeadite]

Most X68000 fans aren't buying just for "perfect" ports, it's all about the cool exclusive features like Bosconian's arrange music, MIDI support, some really cool exclusive games, and 100s of doujins to mess with. Not to mention rocking out to badass MDX tunes. Castlevania tends to be the "gateway drug" that gets most people into the machine initially.

[fernan1234]

Do you have a shortlist of those cool exclusives?

[Classicgamer]

If I ever bought an X68000 it would be to satisfy my curiosity about such a highly regarded piece of gaming hardware I have never seen. That's often enough for me to make me buy, try and sell on.

Obviously, as others have said, we have no real need for ports in most cases these days as we can emulate the real arcade roms.

There are also those here who like to collect vintage gaming hardware. The X68000 rates highly as a gaming collectible given how much better it was than everything else available in 1987 on hare rare it is now.

I can see it's appeal to guys who make homebrew games too. Making your own CPS1 game using the same computer that Capcom used is kinda cool.

The other reason to buy stuff like this is if it's something you really wanted as a kid but couldn't afford which is the main reason people still buy Neo Geo stuff.

[Classicgamer]

I feel like having a MVS is a superior and cheaper option these days. That said I'd still kinda like an x68k because the 68k is my favorite micro

The Neo Geo is definitely cheaper now and back then but "better" is debatable.

Both were capable of arcade quality games from the 80's and early 90's but the Neo Geo always suffered from a limited number of software developers. It had far fewer games (than the X68000) and a high percentage of them were one on one fighters and beat em ups. I like those games but not one of them ever matched up to Street Fighter 2 and Final Fight.

The Neo Geo did have some great shoot em ups too but it's best one (Viewpoint) was available on the X68000 too).

The Neo Geo definitely wins on ease of use though. I never had much patience for that Dos-like command line thing. C: // how the f**k do I make the game load//*\\ - why won't it recognize my command: // * run.

[maxtherabbit]

How about we all just agree that the 68k chip makes the best retro systems ever?

NEO*GEO
MD
x68k
Macintosh?

[SuperDeadite]

Honestly there are only 3-4 NeoGeo games on the X68000.
All of which are a step down, but the Fatal Furies do support MIDI if you want to shake up the tunes.
X68000 Viewpoint is awful though, avoid. (Now the FM Towns port of Viewpoint is fantastic though.)

From the top of my head here are some X68000 exclusives:

RETAIL RELEASES:
Midgarts
Code Zero
Choujin
Die Bahnwelt
Akumajyo Dracula (Castlevania)
Nemesis '90 Kai
Geograph Seal
Etoile Princesse
Neural Gear
Genjyuuki (Undeadline)
Scorpius
Namachuukei 68
Last Battalion
Metal Orange EX
Be Rain
Naious
Metal Sight
Knight Arms
Hellhound
Cotton (This is a complete remake and not a simple port)
Star Wars (inspired by the arcade, but spruced up into a more complete, Time Attack based game)
Guierre Lyeward (this is pure trash, but I love playing it lol)

Also note that pretty much all the non-arcade games to be on both X68K and Console/PC are better on X68K
EXAMPLES:
Phalanx
Sol Feace
Cyber Core
Thunder Force II
Granada
Arcus Odyssey
Lemmings (This even retains dual mice support for 2 players from the Amiga)
Xenon 2 (I hate this game, but this is the best version)
Genocide 2 (oddly enough Genocide 1 is better on FM Towns, but 2 is better on X68K lol)
Mad Stalker
Ys III
Wordsworth (not for everyone, but this game is truly great if you can ignore it's sordid reputation )

DOUJINS: (This list basically goes on forever, just a few favorites for now)
ChoRenSha 68K
Dive On
Angel Dive
Buster
Galseed I and II
Overdriver
Silkroad 2 (closest thing to Zelda on the system)
Vs. Memorial
Ah! My Princess!
Direct X
Y2
Sion II
Sion IV
Cynthia

I also generally prefer a lot of X68K versions over the arcade originals due to musical enhancements such as:
Bosconian, Gradius II, SF2', SSF2, Daimakaimura, Final Fight, Gemini Wing, Super Hangon, etc.

For Kusoge lovers there are well over 100 doujin fighters and dozens of wacky Space Harrier hacks.

All of these are just off the top of my head, need to go to work sadly.

[fernan1234]

Thanks for the great reference! I'll put those on my PX68k list. I've been using it on a 15khz/31khz CRT and I can't decide what screen resolution to set for it. Most of the time I just leave it at 480i since that fits all games, as the mid-res games don't fit in a 240p screen.

[SuperDeadite]

For those afraid of japanese: Die Bahnwelt, Star Cruiser, and Valis II have English translation patches.

Fantasy Zone, Xevious, Space Harrier, Dragon Spirit, and Castlevania can be played with stereoscopic 3D LCD shutter glasses. Dragon Spirit even supports true tate in both 15khz and 31khz. So you can play in tate and 3D. Quite awesome to experience.