Questions about ABT scalers and the OSSC

[Steamflogger Boss]

Mind that DVDO Edge bug with some sources.

FWIW, there are some options that might deliver everything on Fudoh's list, but we're talking over $10,000 usd. Maybe in another decade some of them will slip into the used market at reasonable prices.

0_0

Really now? I am intrigued.

[ASDR]

Question for the original poster and others: Why do you (want to) use a secondary processor with an OSSC? I've been following the scaler discussions and have been peeking at eBay for a while, this is what I'd want:

- Normalization to 1080p@60Hz for perfect display compatibility
- Do the last bit of scaling (i.e. 960p -> 1080p) with high quality (some ringing from my TV's internal scaler)
- Zoom feature (like for the Game Boy Interface or other severely cropped sources)
- High-quality quality deinterlacing
- Yoko/Tate conversion would be sweet

Are there any other features that the often praised models offer that I'm missing? Seems like a Framemeister could do all but the last point, but say a DVDO device would be preferable since the lag is lower?

[orange808]

Mind that DVDO Edge bug with some sources.

FWIW, there are some options that might deliver everything on Fudoh's list, but we're talking over $10,000 usd. Maybe in another decade some of them will slip into the used market at reasonable prices.

0_0

Really now? I am intrigued.

I've got a lot of machines I don't bother to talk about, but if I manage to get one that really "does it all" with reasonable delay, I'll share.

So far, not talking about what I'm hunting seems to help with prices. (Maybe that's the placebo effect, I don't know.) I prefer to talk about machines after I own them and decide to keep/sell them.

[ZellSF]

Mind that DVDO Edge bug with some sources.

Oh sorry I meant to actually mention that and say it isn't a big a deal as some people make it to be, it isn't any more laggy than the Framemeister, a upscaler lots of people happily play games on, and only on some select systems. I don't think there are many unhappy DVDO Edge owners out there for that reason.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Speak for yourself, there.

I'm okay with 20ms of delay for deinterlacing, that's great. The Framemeister shines there.

On the other hand, 20ms to scale a progressive image is disappointing. It's not terrible, but there's nothing special about it. There are multiple machines that can do that. Once you are willing to get around a frame and a half, there are other features like full 4:4:4 chroma and rotation to look at.

Do those other machines have 6ms input lag on most sources? Because the Edge is only that way with a few sources.

And are those other machines identical to the DVDOs in terms of price, features and availability? What machines are you talking about?

Question for the original poster and others: Why do you (want to) use a secondary processor with an OSSC? I've been following the scaler discussions and have been peeking at eBay for a while, this is what I'd want:

- Normalization to 1080p@60Hz for perfect display compatibility
- Do the last bit of scaling (i.e. 960p -> 1080p) with high quality (some ringing from my TV's internal scaler)
- Zoom feature (like for the Game Boy Interface or other severely cropped sources)
- High-quality quality deinterlacing
- Yoko/Tate conversion would be sweet

Are there any other features that the often praised models offer that I'm missing? Seems like a Framemeister could do all but the last point, but say a DVDO device would be preferable since the lag is lower?

Overscan and aspect ratio correction are big things you missed. Height/width adjustment isn't only for GBA/PSP zoom.

The XRGB-mini isn't only laggier than DVDOs, it takes way longer to switch display modes and while I know this isn't important for ingame performance, but dealing with the XRGB-mini's menu system is just awful and it likes losing sync when adjusting width/height, so fine adjustments are not fun.

[ASDR]

Are there any other features that the often praised models offer that I'm missing? Seems like a Framemeister could do all but the last point, but say a DVDO device would be preferable since the lag is lower?

Overscan and aspect ratio correction are big things you missed. Height/width adjustment isn't only for GBA/PSP zoom.

The XRGB-mini isn't only laggier than DVDOs, it takes way longer to switch display modes and while I know this isn't important for ingame performance, but dealing with the XRGB-mini's menu system is just awful and it likes losing sync when adjusting width/height, so fine adjustments are not fun.

Yep, I'd also want to zoom away the borders 3D Saturn games and most PS2 games in 480p/1080i mode have etc. Since the OSSC will output in 960p for those in 4x/2x mode there's no integer upscaling to panel resolution anyway, might as well get rid of borders. The display mode switching time is a good point. My TV is terrible with the OSSC there (it has high-quality native 240p support and switches near instant on the analog inputs, but HDMI handshake takes an eternity...).

I've never seen a good deal on the recommended range of scalers here in Europe, maybe I haven't been looking long / diligently enough

[Xyga]

The ViewSonic VX3211-mh (afaik best lcd monitor for the OSSC available in Europe) isn't available in America but I'd wager that the WQHD version of it, the VX3211-2K-MHD, is just as good and able to overscan the OSSC by itself too.

I could be wrong of course since we don't have OSSC user feedback on that particular model, only the full-hd one, but it's probably a better investment than expensive av scalers that solve some issues but also bring others of their own, the right path with the OSSC is getting the right display for it as it's the raw and direct output performance of marq's device that's superior to all other solutions.
Chaining with DVDO's and similar home av scalers made sense when whe only had old analogue XRGBs to upscale to 1080p, but today withe the OSSC and 4K much less so, methinks.

OP's monitor isn't even good at scaling 1080 (check the review on pcmonitors.info), which is common with monitors and even more so 4K ones anyway, they're generally worse at scaling than TVs. Crappy scaling interpolation will defeat the advantage of things like DE/EE.
I understood at some point that he's got a monitor that's unfriendly to the OSSC anyway, technically and financially it makes more sense to change the monitor.

[Xer Xian]

Probably my last post in this thread was overlooked for some reason, so pardon for repeating myself - the Extron DSC 301 HD meets all the requirements listed by Fudoh in the previous page (while not costing $10k - more like $100), and some more as well:

- Composite, component and vga support. Composite is especially nice to have because it's missing on the OSSC - the DSC 301 will deinterlace 240p sources so it's hardly optimal in terms of both lag and quality (still not terrible though: see a capture of direct PS2 240p YPbPr output processing here - of course composite will be worse, and I've not tested it yet) but at least it's a way to get non-RGB consoles onto a flatscreen
- Straightforward and easy to navigate OSD
- Several test patterns available
- Possibility to fine-tune input sampling a là OSSC
- very compact body and not power-hungry like DVDO's

Cons:
- low compatibility with off-spec refresh rates over hdmi. This is bad news but things seem to improve by converting the OSSC output back to analogue. More testing is needed
- 240p is not handled correctly. Out of all the generic upscalers I've tested, only the Kramer VP-425 did it right (besides DVDO scalers, which suck at 240p upscaling for other reasons) (edit: I tested the VP-425 with the Drop Shadow Test today and I was actually wrong here, it does deinterlace 240p)
- 480p upscaling is solid but not the best I've seen - it's not up there with the CII and TvOne's Corio2 scalers. 960p upsampled actually is though
- proprietary Extron software is required for custom resolutions (vertical resolution only goes down to 512 lines, so 240p downscaling is a no-go) and input sampling setting
- no remote

Didn't you open a thread about the Extron DSC 301 HD or am I misremembering? Because that scaler satisfies all the requirements Fudoh listed above. Only thing I've not tried yet is feeding it weird refresh rates.

Yes, that was me, the only problem with the 301 HD is it does not like my SNES via the OSSC at all. Mega Drive works fine, but the SNES, due to its oddball 60.08Hz refresh rate does not play nice.

Right, the SNES is unusable over hdmi. However, converting the OSSC output to vga improved compatibility on the Extron. Line4x240p over vga is usable, but still not perfect - there's a slight wobble across the whole image which can be noticed along edges and text. I wonder what the result would be with component. (edit: see a photo of my messy setup here)

Again, more testing is needed before one can actually recommend the Extron DSC, and DVDO scalers will still be relevant anyway due to their pretty much unbeatable low processing lag in game mode (the Extron adds one frame so 10ms more). Also, remember that 1080p is going to be phased out sooner or later, so a 1080p upscaler will never be future-proof - but of course that's the reason why most hdmi upscalers (popular ones excluded yeah) can be had for $100 or so on eBay and we can afford them and talk about their performance.

[orange808]

Probably my last post in this thread was overlooked for some reason, so pardon for repeating myself - the Extron DSC 301 HD meets all the requirements listed by Fudoh in the previous page (while not costing $10k - more like $100), and some more as well:

- Composite, component and vga support. Composite is especially nice to have because it's missing on the OSSC - the DSC 301 will deinterlace 240p sources so it's hardly optimal in terms of both lag and quality (still not terrible though: see a capture of direct PS2 240p YPbPr output processing here - of course composite will be worse, and I've not tested it yet) but at least it's a way to get non-RGB consoles onto a flatscreen
- Straightforward and easy to navigate OSD
- Several test patterns available
- Possibility to fine-tune input sampling a là OSSC
- very compact body and not power-hungry like DVDO's

Cons:
- low compatibility with off-spec refresh rates over hdmi. This is bad news but things seem to improve by converting the OSSC output back to analogue. More testing is needed
- 240p is not handled correctly. Out of all the generic upscalers I've tested, only the Kramer VP-425 did it right (besides DVDO scalers, which suck at 240p upscaling for other reasons)
- 480p upscaling is solid but not the best I've seen - it's not up there with the CII and TvOne's Corio2 scalers. 960p upsampled actually is though
- proprietary Extron software is required for custom resolutions (vertical resolution only goes down to 512 lines, so 240p downscaling is a no-go) and input sampling setting
- no remote

Didn't you open a thread about the Extron DSC 301 HD or am I misremembering? Because that scaler satisfies all the requirements Fudoh listed above. Only thing I've not tried yet is feeding it weird refresh rates.

Yes, that was me, the only problem with the 301 HD is it does not like my SNES via the OSSC at all. Mega Drive works fine, but the SNES, due to its oddball 60.08Hz refresh rate does not play nice.

Right, the SNES is unusable over hdmi. However, converting the OSSC output to vga improved compatibility on the Extron. Line4x240p over vga is usable, but still not perfect - there's a slight wobble across the whole image which can be noticed along edges and text. I wonder what the result would be with component. (edit: see a photo of my messy setup here)

Again, more testing is needed before one can actually recommend the Extron DSC, and DVDO scalers will still be relevant anyway due to their pretty much unbeatable low processing lag in game mode (the Extron adds one frame so 10ms more). Also, remember that 1080p is going to be phased out sooner or later, so a 1080p upscaler will never be future-proof - but of course that's the reason why most hdmi upscalers (popular ones excluded yeah) can be had for $100 or so on eBay and we can afford them and talk about their performance.

I'm curious about the Extron DSC 301. I've seen them floating around, but it doesn't offer anything I really need.

What DAC are you using and does it create artifacts?

Do you have a Tendak DAC? I was curious about how the output looks through the Extron 301. The Extron may remove the jitter.

Does the HDFury ringing look bad after it is scaled?

How is the sharpness from that Extron? Almost every Extron I've used was a little soft and introduced ringing the moment I increased sharpness.

Are scanlines even?

I've owned multiple machines now where the manufacturer flat out LIED about 4:4:4. The machines output 4:4:4, but the internal processing in cheap machines is almost exclusively 4:2:2 or 4:2:0. Liars everywhere. It's ridiculous. It's almost as bad as buying a display.

Looking at the 301, it looks like an enhanced version of the RGB-HDMI box--or, rather, the RGB-HDMI was a scaled-back version of the 301. I'm almost certain that would be 4:2:2.

[Fudoh]

Looking at the 301, it looks like an enhanced version of the RGB-HDMI box--or, rather, the RGB-HDMI was a scaled-back version of the 301. I'm almost certain that would be 4:2:2.

but then again Extron makes quite a fuss about having moved from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 at some point. From the 301 product page they link to their 4:4:4 test pattern, so I would give them the benefit of the doubt here.

[orange808]

Looking at the 301, it looks like an enhanced version of the RGB-HDMI box--or, rather, the RGB-HDMI was a scaled-back version of the 301. I'm almost certain that would be 4:2:2.

but then again Extron makes quite a fuss about having moved from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 at some point. From the 301 product page they link to their 4:4:4 test pattern, so I would give them the benefit of the doubt here.

The RGB-HDMI 300 A also links to the test pattern--although actually getting a download of that was a huge pain.

I am hesitant to give benefit of the doubt on that generation of Extrons, because I already got burned. I think that was their phase of downsampling for internal processing and advertising 4:4:4 output. That may explain their huge marketing push on these new models (from 2016 forward).

Their new 4k machines look like the real deal, though. The again, the same can be said for almost all the new machines from the good major vendors.

[Fudoh]

I just pulled it out and gave it a try, so I can confirm that the 301 HD is 4:4:4 indeed. Pretty good scaling as well (at least from 720p to 1080p)

I don't have an OSSC hooked up right now, does SNES incompatibility exist with both AFL enabled and disabled (AFL = locked output framerate) ?

480p upscaling on the 301 is ok, not especially great. There's some visible ringing and if you adjust the detail (sharpness) setting down, you start bluring the image pretty early on, while the ringing stays. 480i handling is embarrassingly bad in terms of deinterlacing (for HDMI inputs) and adds a strange wave effect for analogue inputs.

[Xer Xian]

I just pulled it out and gave it a try

You magnificent basterd pulling out scalers out of your hat on a whim

Yes, I forgot to give a mention about the average 480i deinterlacing. Unfortunately (and despite touting advanced motion adaptive deinterlacing), most 'recent' VPs don't seem to give much consideration to interlaced signals (haven't really tested 1080i though). Some even flat out refuse to accept it (Kramer VP-424).

I should also add that I linked to the wrong capture when giving a sample of 240p processing - that was 240p pass-through from the OSSC. This is the Extron's direct YPbPr 240p processing. Of course being deinterlaced the best way to judge it is by seeing it in motion on a video.

SNES over hdmi is all over the place with or without frame locking unfortunately.

@Orange808 - yes, of course adding a DAC in the chain is not entirely without consequences. Scanlines look fine to me. Here's a capture of in-game scanlines at OSSC 480p pass-through * (game has selectable resolution and built-in scanlines overlay), and here's a capture of OSSC's 80% scanlines at Line4x240p.

* Or was it direct YPbPr input? I can't remember.

[Fudoh]

pulling out scalers out of your hat on a whim

I really have a lot of untested machines here (or stashed away). This one was in reach

Yes, I forgot to give a mention about the average 480i deinterlacing. Unfortunately (and despite touting advanced motion adaptive deinterlacing), most 'recent' VPs don't seem to give much consideration to interlaced signals (haven't really tested 1080i though). Some even flat out refuse to accept it (Kramer VP-424).

the Extron is really bad. Combing everywhere, which is rare, especially when you can disable the film mode by hand, so it should default to video anyway.

SNES over hdmi is all over the place with or without frame locking unfortunately.

I wonder if the dejitter mod might help with that. After all the SNES refresh rate is not THIS far off spec, so it shouldn't be causing such problems.

[Xaranar]

Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly certain that the Extron has less lag when processing digital signals than analogue ones. When I test it via the manual lag test in the 240p test suite, it's pretty much spot on every time.

[Xer Xian]

Don't quote me on this, but I'm fairly certain that the Extron has less lag when processing digital signals than analogue ones. When I test it via the manual lag test in the 240p test suite, it's pretty much spot on every time.

That's not the most reliable test around, I measured it on a vga CRT with a Leo Bodnar on both hdmi and vga input (using one or two DACs) and it's a pretty consistent ~17ms.

SNES over hdmi is all over the place with or without frame locking unfortunately.

I wonder if the dejitter mod might help with that. After all the SNES refresh rate is not THIS far off spec, so it shouldn't be causing such problems.

That might be it actually, lower multiples (2x,3x) over vga exhibited a nasty tearing-like effect on the top end of the picture. It's completely gone on 4x but then there's a weird trembling that affects the whole picture, and 5x is back to nonsense again. The trembling is not a massive issue but is distracting for sure and certainly unacceptable for anyone that invests on an OSSC+upscaler setup. Unfortunately I was not able to cure it in any way, no fiddling with the OSSC sampling options nor the Extron solved it.

I also tried GBI over hdmi and while LL is accepted, ULL is not, so in any case one has to be mindful of off-spec refresh rates with the Extron (but then again, not many scalers sync at 59.72Hz). I think DVDO's have it beat in this regard, but I haven't fiddled much with them. I received my DVDO Edge today and I must say it is in absolutely terrible conditions, the whole unit is covered with a nasty sticky rubber coating, the remote as well they definitely need to be disassembled and deep cleaned before use, so I've put them aside for now. Looking around on the web seems to confirm that it's a widespread issue, and while it should not dissuade anyone from buying an Edge, one should be aware that today most or all Edge VPs need a very thorough cleaning.

[Fudoh]

I must say it is in absolutely terrible conditions, the whole unit is covered with a nasty sticky rubber coating, the remote as well

hell yeah, that lovely softtouch dip. Every time I get something with the same surface coating I wonder how long it will keep its consistence this time around. You can dissolve the whole top case in isopropanol alcohol and scrub it off afterwards. I've done this to some softtouch coated items like the Optoma HD3000 remote. Or if you don't mind a slightly bumpier surface, just coat it in plasti dip right away.

[Xer Xian]

Thanks Fudoh, will try that soon-ish I should test the DVI-I to DVI-I Corio2 scaler sometimes in the next few days, I'll report back if it performs well.

[orange808]

Just to hammer my point home, VNS just got done filling my ear with absolute jibberish on their new G-406.

First of all, "4:4:4 deep color 4k60 over HDMI 2.0" is impossible because HDMI 2.0 doesn't have the bandwith. So, you immediately know something isn't right.

VNS is coy about what they are using, but their previous products have been HQV machines. The guy that started Silicon Optix has a new company and he's selling overclocked Reon and Realta chips. I bet money this new VNS box is a Reon on steroids. (I don't see any custom resolution options and that's the main difference between the Realta and Reon.)

I've already owned a Reon and Realta and both claim to be 4:4:4, but I understand them to behave like Framemeister. So, it isn't a true full 4:4:4 processing pipeline. So, 4:4:4 is just marketing talk. HQV doesn't do "no compression".

Look deeper into the specs and the 4k60 claim assumes you are using the four adjustable outputs to build a video wall using 1080p screens. Then, you get a "4k" video wall. (Wink, wink, nudge, nudge! "4k"!) No single output does 4k60. The HDMI input accepts 8bit 4:4:4 4k60. (Kramer has also been plastering 4k60 on machines that accept and ONLY downscale a 4k60 signal since late 2016.)

They say "low latency". Well, Realta and Reon do some very neat tricks, but they don't do it quickly. If past experiences are any indication, we're talking three frames or more. That ain't low latency.

So, you get 1080p60 outputs. You can make the EDID say any bit depth and chroma you want after the 4:2:2 internal processing gets done permanently destroying some of the actual signal. You can feed in 4k60, but you won't be using deep color if you do. It says "matrix" in the description, but the outputs are grouped into pairs that are locked to one input.

So much marketing bullcrap.

[Xaranar]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but can’t HDMI 2.0 do 4k60? I know for a fact that DisplayPort 1.2 supports 4k60, I use it on my own computer.

[Xer Xian]

@orange808: have you ever had a chance to test HQV machines? I am intrigued by the Kramer VP-792 (and similar) which use this scaling engine - more precisely, this is the feature that has me interested:

Selectable Processing Versus Latency — Best picture and low latency modes; latency as low as 0.25–frame progressive inputs, 1.25–field interlaced inputs.

I'm sure they are talking pretty big on that list, but from my experience with other Kramer units I've found that the declared processing lag is more or less spot on. Unfortunately these particular VPs have an hefty price tag and have never landed as used on eBay.

[Fudoh]

I still have the Kramer VP-794 on hand. And Orange808 had (or has) a Calibre branded unit with the same processing engine.

As he found (and I can confirm), the processing lag is much higher than stated. You can disable certain processing modules, but it's a pain, since it doesn't work automatically and you need the "full buffer" to enable the rotation settings. I don't recall the processing lag. Maybe 2 Frames in low latency mode and 3 with full rotation ? That's the same numbers I get from the Imagenics processor (RS-1550B) I also have here right now.

I personally dislike the HQV's machines in general. I don't think their deinterlacing is as great as advertised nor is their scaling. Usability is great though. You can rotate your image in realtime using the knob on the front of the machine and you can add curvature using the keystone/pincushion controls. It's a great machine to demo and show off.

It's such shame that these units aren't fast enough. The Aurora is SUPERFAST in comparison (but lacks scaling quality). The SOIA sits somwhere in the middle.

[ZellSF]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but can’t HDMI 2.0 do 4k60? I know for a fact that DisplayPort 1.2 supports 4k60, I use it on my own computer.

HDMI 2.0 can do 4k@60hz. Just not at 4:4:4 with deep color.

There's a handy chart in the FAQ you'll find that the fourth Google result for HDMI 2.0.

[Xer Xian]

I see, thanks Fudoh. These machines are expensive and cater to a specialized user base so it's quite disconcerting that they lie to such an extent Also it really seems that the one processor to rule them all does not belong to this world.

[strayan]

I'm currently using a Crestron HD-Scaler, which, whilst very limited in terms of its controls, will accept a line5x signal from my OSSC, with extremely low latency as well, I consistently get 0ms in the manual lag test on the 240p test suite.

I also want to run my HDMI modified GameCube, and Wii, through whichever scaler I decide upon as well, as my monitor does not have any aspect ratio control and as a result I can't make use of anamorphic widescreen.

If you already have a Crestron HD scaler you should have no problems displaying anamorphic widescreen on 16:9 displays.