Non-powered active HDMI to VGA adapters for OSSC

[andy251203]

I don't own a OSSC, but I'm curious if the crushed blacks issue is caused by the converter expecting a limited RGB range vs. the full RGB range. Do we know if the OSSC outputs full or limited RGB?

[Guspaz]

The OSSC outputs full-range RGB. I believe that limited range could be simulated by increasing the RGB offsets and decreasing the RGB gain, but I'm not sure.

[bobrocks95]

I see a "prime" logo next to the item on amazon.com . Does that mean that prime members get free shipping on it?

Prime is a subscription trap-offer, if you don't cancel beyond your first 'trial' use(s) you actually agree to pay for it (explanation and cancellation procedure are somewhat camouflaged behind several links). It is only beneficial to those who do frequent small amount orders and want to see their packages arrive maybe a couple of days earlier.

Well, now they're doing the 20% off new games thing, and starting to add more and more items that can only be purchased if you have Prime. At the same time of course the price will probably go up again this year...

[Guspaz]

We're still at $79 CAD (~$58 USD) a year for Prime, which includes the 20% discount and amazon video and such. Of course, the utility of Prime is more limited in Canada due to a vastly smaller selection of items as compared to Amazon in the US.

Also, Amazon Canada never ships out pre-ordered games on time. I pre-ordered MK8D in January with Prime. Not only did Amazon not ship it in time for release-day shipping, they didn't even ship it by release day. Non-preorders were available to ship Friday for delivery on Saturday. My pre-ordered copy will arive Tuesday.

Based on my experience with the three or four most recent game pre-orders, this is done on *every* pre-order, it's not just a one-off fluke. They did it with the Switch, with BotW, with MK8D, and they're doing it with Disgaea 5 based on their current estimates. In every case, people who place an order on release day receive their copies several days *before* people who pre-ordered.

[Gunstar]

@andy251203 I think it's putting out a full range (or correctly expanding YUV's 16-235 range?), at least that's what I saw when testing the OSSC without a DAC, the image looked 'correct' on two flat-screen PC monitors (which are locked at full range). So the chain was Xbox via component> OSSC> HDMI> Dell UltraSharp U2715H monitor. No black crush, detail present was the same as the Component to VGA transcoders I have when used with a pc-CRT.

Could be it's doing another expansion, so like you said, it's expecting a limited signal and then stretching it further.

Ah Guspaz confirmed it, thanks.

[orange808]

Ok. I fired up Batman on the HiDefNES.

Ringing is essentially non-existent.

I am seeing quite a bit of jitter in the output from the OSSC. This is concerning because HiDefNES slightly underclocks to a flat 60 Hz.

Didn't detect lag, but the Leo Bodnar has intermittent trouble keeping the result on the screen. This is probably due to the noticable jitter.

Jitter manifests itself on a "still" screen and with motion. No scolling or image movement from the source is necessary. Happens all the time. No interpolation or scanlines used. Happens at 1080p, 720p, and 480p. 480p is the worst, but bad at all resolutions.

My first impression isn't good. The jittering output can be disquised on a CRT, but it sticks out like a sore thumb on the Vizio's sharp output.

Running it through a Kramer "K-storm" sync doctor enabled device might help. I'll try that later.

Not impressed so far.

[FinalBaton]

Have you been testing it with retro consoles orange808? (I personally am not using a Hidef NES)

[Gunstar]

What type of display is the Vizio? Yeah on a pc-CRT the jitter is hardly noticeable, you have to get really close but it doesn't seem like there's anymore so than any other VGA device I'd say. I actually see some ever so slight jitter from the OSSC when I connect directly to an LCD screen via HDMI, that was with the Xbox running at 59.94hz.

EDIT: I have an old LCD monitor with VGA in, the HD Fury 3 has way less jitter than the Tendak. Tendak's jitter is really bad on the LCD, the same result on the no brand HDMI to VGA adapter, interestingly enough with line x3 the jitter is reduced (couldn't get x4 to work) but still not great (testing with a SNES). Maybe this is where a powered DAC is better?

[Guspaz]

The HiDefNES doesn't support analog output, and the OSSC doesn't support digital input... How and why are you running the HiDefNES through an OSSC?

EDIT: Or, are you running the output of the HDN into the HDMI-to-VGA adapter, and then running the VGA into the OSSC, and then the OSSC into a digital display? That defeats the purpose of the HDN (instead of the NESRGB), but if you're doing that, remember that the VGA input of the OSSC has very limited buffering/filtering, and you might be better off routing the signal to the SCART or RCA inputs, where you can do an LPF on the sync to maybe avoid jitter?

[orange808]

The HiDefNES doesn't support analog output, and the OSSC doesn't support digital input... How and why are you running the HiDefNES through an OSSC?

EDIT: Or, are you running the output of the HDN into the HDMI-to-VGA adapter, and then running the VGA into the OSSC, and then the OSSC into a digital display? That defeats the purpose of the HDN (instead of the NESRGB), but if you're doing that, remember that the VGA input of the OSSC has very limited buffering/filtering, and you might be better off routing the signal to the SCART or RCA inputs, where you can do an LPF on the sync to maybe avoid jitter?

Yes.

HiDefNES -> Tendak HDMI to RGBHV -> OSSC -> Vizio

It looks bad.

-------

If you want to use a matrix RGBHV switch to manipulate the video chain freely, I would hardly say it "defeats the purpose". Feeding HiDefNES into the video chain without scanlines lets me scan convert to 240p for consumer CRT and PVM output. The OSSC handles scanlines for VGA monitors. With seven displays hooked up, I want options.

I bypassed the switch to test.

Just tried the Tendak directly to a couple CRT monitors at 480p. I can see the jitter. Just for fun, scan converted HiDefNES via Tendak to 240p, fed through the FC-14, and went to a couple consumer CRT's. I still see jitter.

[Guspaz]

It defeats the purpose in that the cheaper and simpler NESRGB will do the same job, and can either directly be fed to a 240p display, and/or run through an OSSC for a digital display: The Hi-Def NES is only useful if fed to a digital display.

The OSSC's VGA inputs aren't fully filtered, but if you're getting RGBHV out of the Tendak, I guess it's the only input you can use (since you can't get H and V sync into the RCA or SCART inputs). The question is, is the jitter coming from the OSSC, or the Tendak?

[orange808]

It defeats the purpose in that the cheaper and simpler NESRGB will do the same job, and can either directly be fed to a 240p display, and/or run through an OSSC for a digital display: The Hi-Def NES is only useful if fed to a digital display.

The OSSC's VGA inputs aren't fully filtered, but if you're getting RGBHV out of the Tendak, I guess it's the only input you can use (since you can't get H and V sync into the RCA or SCART inputs). The question is, is the jitter coming from the OSSC, or the Tendak?

The Tendak. I see it when feeding directly to a VGA monitor. *(see below)

As for usefulness, every single last input I feed into my setup can be displayed on all displays simultaneously--and the video chain is somewhat flexible for each output type (HDMI, RGBHV, RGBsB, and component outputs available).

Edit: I'm really splitting hairs on the CRT displays. It looks bad on the Vizio panel, but you have to really be looking for it on a CRT--and I knew exactly what to look for.

For CRT's this looks like a winner. Plug and play. I even tried it behind an HDMI powered switch and it still works fine on a CRT.

Cheap. No ringing. Virtually invisible tremble. This is still a good one!

[FinalBaton]

the jitter issue made me cautious, but to learn it' barely noticeable on a CRT is reassuing

I'll be using it exclusively on a CRT, and with no OSSC in the chain (just PS3 -> Tendak -> CRT or Blu Ray player -> Tendak -> CRT for viewing Blu Rays and DVDs)

[Gunstar]

Some more testing with SNES and N64 with scanlines off (I tried making a video but it came out terrible):

-Line x3 has minor jitter with the HD Fury 3 and the Tendak, Tendak seems ever so slightly better than the HDF3 on a pc-CRT, it's fairly subtle you to have your face up to the monitor but it's there. I missed this as I use Scanlines for '240p' consoles and x4
-Line x2 and x4 have virtually no jitter (I wouldn't say 100%), x2 seems near perfect might be because it's softer?
-On an LCD (with a VGA input) HDF3 hands down is better for jitter in x2 where it looks solid. x3 there's minor jitter. Tendak is bad in all modes on an LCD
-Unbranded HDMI to VGA is slightly better than the Tendak on an LCD but still has unacceptable levels of jitter
-OSSC directly connected* to an HDMI LCD monitor has super subtle jitter in 480p pass through mode, in 480px2 it's a tiny bit more noticeable
*There's still a passive DVI to HDMI adapter in the chain

I think there are some more tests to be done, like seeing if the 480p (negligible) jitter is there when using DVI to DVI .

I'll check the Startech for jitter tomorrow, will report back with my findings.


Thanks for the impressions, orange808!

[FinalBaton]

Also, I have no idea what EDID is and how it's implemented, but : does the Tendak passes on that information? and if not : does it mean some sources won't be able to display when going through it?
(I'm pretty sure my CRT recognizes EDID but, will the Tendak pass that info along to the CRT?)

[Gunstar]

@FinalBaton I could be wrong but I don't think Blu-Ray will play through these cheap adapters, they don't strip HDCP like the HD Furys I believe.

Startech turned up today and it's dead on arrival, wouldn't produce a picture on two monitors I tested with. I'll order another and see how I get on, will be a few days before I can report back.

[FinalBaton]

@FinalBaton I could be wrong but I don't think Blu-Ray will play through these cheap adapters, they don't strip HDCP like the HD Furys I believe.

Ohhhhh good point Gunstar, I haven't thought of that

I think I'll get an HD Fury Gamer2 instead for my DVD needs

[BazookaBen]

Also, I have no idea what EDID is and how it's implemented, but : does the Tendak passes on that information? and if not : does it mean some sources won't be able to display when going through it?
(I'm pretty sure my CRT recognizes EDID but, will the Tendak pass that info along to the CRT?)

You have it backwards. The EDID is on the monitor. And yes, most CRT's (I know of) have EDID's. I know the HD Fury Nano GX will pass the monitor's EDID to the source device.

[headlesshobbs]

@FinalBaton I could be wrong but I don't think Blu-Ray will play through these cheap adapters, they don't strip HDCP like the HD Furys I believe.

As soon as I can figure out where I left my adapter at, I'm going to post something to show that mine works between my PS3 and a Sony brand BDP. Don't think that all of them are incompatible.


On the flip side a poster on youtube wanted to try an audio out comparison, so this is also something extra to take into account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEN9gmPMlMc

[Gunstar]

That's very interesting! I guess they're HDCP compliant? Good to know for those interested in Blu-Ray playback.

[Xer Xian]

Does the OSSC output enough juice to drive HD Fury devices with no need of an external power supply? They require a non-standard connector (negative polarity on the center pin and positive polarity on the outer barrel) and I'd rather not have to make one myself.

Btw, I decided to go for an HD Fury 1 - I avoided the 3rd thanks to this thread and the 2nd since it outputs a signal with a less common sync polarity. The Nano GX would have been nice too but I couldn't find it for less than €130 (and also, apparently it has the lowest video quality of all HD Fury's according to the manufacturer itself: http://imgur.com/a/0KMT4).

[BazookaBen]

Does the OSSC output enough juice to drive HD Fury devices with no need of an external power supply? They require a non-standard connector (negative polarity on the center pin and positive polarity on the outer barrel) and I'd rather not have to make one myself.

Btw, I decided to go for an HD Fury 1 - I avoided the 3rd thanks to this thread and the 2nd since it outputs a signal with a less common sync polarity. The Nano GX would have been nice too but I couldn't find it for less than €130 (and also, apparently it has the lowest video quality of all HD Fury's according to the manufacturer itself: http://imgur.com/a/0KMT4).

I have both the Fury 1 and Nano GX and can't tell the difference, though I haven't analyzed them with a colorimeter or anything. Bought the Nano GX because it has audio out for my Vita TV.

[Xer Xian]

Yeah that comparison chart is fishy - picture quality graded in percentage points?

I'll probably get a Nano GX as well later on, just need to find it at the right price. For now, the HD Fury 1 looks like the perfect companion to the OSSC with its DVI-D input and ok quality with low-ish resolutions. I'll report back as soon as I get around to testing it.

[Gunstar]

Looking forward to hearing what you think about the HD Fury 1, Xer Xian.

Update on the Startech adapter, the second replacement also didn't work for me. I know it worked for Das Muel so it's probably me being unlucky but I don't think I'll bother to get a third.

I've also received the 'Cheapest on aliexpress' adapter and it also won't work with/power the pc-CRT, I'll update the list. I think I've got a cheap female to female adapter yet to come.

[Xer Xian]

Looking forward to hearing what you think about the HD Fury 1, Xer Xian.

Sure Gunstar, thanks. Well, I think it's very good, possibly a smidge better than the Gefen DVI to VGA converter (both are miles better than the other generic, cheap one I've got). A screenshot of each device I've tested can be found here (there was a very slight variation in the results, so I selected one out of the 5 shots I took for each device - the one with the most shadow details in each case. The room was pitch black). I know that none of the shots looks really sharp, but most of the blurriness is due to the mediocre source - GC Component out - so it was there to begin with. Please note that even if the shots are taken from a different angle, I did use a tripod in every case (I just had to move it a bit inbeetwen the tests to have access to the monitor inputs in order to change the setup).

One thing: I had to use my old 1280x1024 IPS LCD monitor with VGA in (to which I fed the transcoded OSSC's 2x480p output, with no scaling 1:1 pixel perfect mode on monitor's settings) to compare all three of the devices, since my CRT monitor (19'' Lacie Electron IV) gave me a green screen with the HD Fury 1 (and with it only). I wonder why that happens - if anyone has any clue about that, let me know!

[BazookaBen]

No clue why you're getting green color from the HD Fury, you sure the OSSC is passing digital RGB instead of YCbCr?

And second, for playing Gamecube games on a PC CRT, there is a way simpler way to play on a PC CRT. Since most Gamecube games support 480p, all you need to do is hook up your component cables to a component>VGA converter like the Audio Authority 9A62 and you'll get a perfect color. But I guess where the OSSC can be useful is to line-double to 960p, which gets rid of scanlines (which I'm not a fan of on 480p sources).

[Guspaz]

Using the GameCube directly with a PC CRT isn't ideal, because it will boot (and the system menus will be) in 480i, as well as some games.

If you use an OSSC, you can set it to do bob deinterlace on 480i to produce 480p, and then passthrough 480p, at which point all GameCube input should work on your PC CRT. That said, some people are not fans of bob deinterlacing, but if the goal is to just get access to the system menus and the odd game that can't do 480p, that should work.

[BazookaBen]

Using the GameCube directly with a PC CRT isn't ideal, because it will boot (and the system menus will be) in 480i, as well as some games.

If you use an OSSC, you can set it to do bob deinterlace on 480i to produce 480p, and then passthrough 480p, at which point all GameCube input should work on your PC CRT. That said, some people are not fans of bob deinterlacing, but if the goal is to just get access to the system menus and the odd game that can't do 480p, that should work.

With Gamecube you don't need access to any menus, just hold A while the game loads, then hit A again to confirm progressive mode. After that, you don't need to hold A anymore, you just hit A after the game loads, because it will give you the progressive prompt automatically.

[Guspaz]

Yes, but that means that you will be sending the 15khz signal directly to the PC CRT (which hopefully won't cause any problems) and it means that you can't access the GameCube system menu (be it for audio setting, screen offset setting, date/time settings, or memory card management) in any way should you need to adjust any settings there. It also means that games that don't support 480p are unplayable.

Also, the GameCube component cables cost more than an OSSC. If you just wanted to connect a GameCube directly to a PC CRT, the cheapest solution is gcvideo lite, which can output a VGA (RGBHV) signal.

[Xer Xian]

No clue why you're getting green color from the HD Fury, you sure the OSSC is passing digital RGB instead of YCbCr?

Doesn't the OSSC always pass digital RGB (DVI-D)? If you were referring to the input selection, it was AV2 YPbPr.

Anyway, I used a GC for no particular reason. It's just that atm most of my consoles are kept unplugged and the GC was among the more readily available (and also, I couldn't think of many 8/16 bit games with any amount of shadow details.. Metroid maybe?). Since I was aware that the GC would have been a poor choice to test image sharpness, I did test a 480p PS2 game too (via RGsB) but found that the results were practically indistinguishable, so I didn't bother uploading them. I've done it now, and they can be found here (unlabelled though): http://imgur.com/a/g2iug

Edit: In general, the point of hooking up the OSSC to a CRT monitor is to enjoy native resolution (well, line-doubled at most), good motion definition and no lag for pretty much everything, from 240p to 1080p (Hi-res consoles will need transcoders ofc). The only shortcoming is 480i content (and well, small screen diagonal), but I don't mind bob deinterlacing that much. If you want real deinterlacing, add a decent scaler and you're set. Imho.