Why do some prefer consumer CRTs over PVM|BVM?

[tjstogy]

Would a later non-hd crt like a good Sony wega with component inputs look the same as if used with a RGB transcoder vs modding it for scart? If so, what's the best scart to component converter?

I'd be really interested in seeing what a pvm looks like next to a RGB modded high end consumer grade tv. My 20" pvm is great but small. I'd love to one day have a 32" Sony wega RGB modded with scart out, but I'll need some good luck to find an in home modder.

Why not use the component input with a RGB/Scart>Component transcoder?

[BazookaBen]

Would a later non-hd crt like a good Sony wega with component inputs look the same as if used with a RGB transcoder vs modding it for scart? If so, what's the best scart to component converter?

Yes, it would look just as good, many people here play their Genesis/SNES' this way. As far a as best transcoder, you can do a search on this forum and there a tons of threads on it. I use the the Audio Authority 9A60, many use the CSY2100 and its clones

[Einzelherz]

I have two CSY 2100 clones and my only complaint is that I can't seem to get their color conversion pots to be 100 percent accurate. The better ones might not have this problem.

[FinalBaton]

According to Fudoh(and I absolutely trust him), the Kramer FC-14 is the reference for transcoding YUV to RGB. The Kramer FC-4 is probably just as good and is a bit easier to find (at least that's my experience. while searching for it I found a couple of new units(although it's not in production anymore) from businesses).

But how a picture transcoded from RGB to YUV compares to an RGB signal on the same set (that's been RGB-modded), that I do not know. I have never made a direct comparison myself.

[Taiyaki]

I'd add that RGB scart on consumer sets is another overrated element. Most of the time you wouldn't see much difference from a good S-video connection to a component connection IMO (that obviously excludes comparisons to consoles that have mediocre S-video output such as the Gamecube or PS2). It's nothing like going to composite from RF or going S-video from composite. It's an improvement for sure but a marginal one.

[FinalBaton]

I disagree. While the sharpness of s-video is very close to that of RGB, the colors are quite better on RGB. It's a substantial jump in color accuracy and contrast.

Having said that, s-video does look pretty nice (it's just that RGB is better). If someone wanted a cheap setup with a decent enough picture for low cost/hassle, I would recommend an SD CRT with consoles hooked up via S-video (I actually suggested just that to a friend who wanted to experience retro gaming on a crt.)

But if you're aiming for the best picture possible, definitly go with RGB. it's well worth it. it looks quite noticeably better than S-video.

[Ikaruga11]

But if you're aiming for the best picture possible, definitly go with RGB. it's well worth it. it looks quite noticeably better than S-video.

Or component.

[Einzelherz]

But if you're aiming for the best picture possible, definitly go with RGB. it's well worth it. it looks quite noticeably better than S-video.

Or component.

Yes, RGB or component look better than S-Video. Very helpful.

[bobrocks95]

Transcoding from RGB to YPbPr is a simple mathematical transform and is in theory completely lossless.

Whether that happens in practice may be debatable, but the two shouldn't look different on the same set.
Of course, at the same time, CSY clones shouldn't have pots to adjust the picture, because again it's a set mathematical formula.

Personally speaking I couldn't imagine RGB looking any better on my set than transcoded component already does. Maybe it would, but fixing convergence issues would be a much bigger improvement on picture quality (though I've never felt daring enough to mess with the yoke).

[FinalBaton]

But if you're aiming for the best picture possible, definitly go with RGB. it's well worth it. it looks quite noticeably better than S-video.

Or component.

Yes, RGB or component look better than S-Video. Very helpful.

well my point is that the jump in quality is very noticeable.
Tayaki said that it was barely noticeable and I was responding to him

[Einzelherz]

I was berating GeneralLight

[tjstogy]

What size/model of tv do you use?

Transcoding from RGB to YPbPr is a simple mathematical transform and is in theory completely lossless.

Whether that happens in practice may be debatable, but the two shouldn't look different on the same set.
Of course, at the same time, CSY clones shouldn't have pots to adjust the picture, because again it's a set mathematical formula.

Personally speaking I couldn't imagine RGB looking any better on my set than transcoded component already does. Maybe it would, but fixing convergence issues would be a much bigger improvement on picture quality (though I've never felt daring enough to mess with the yoke).

[azmun]

I'd add that RGB scart on consumer sets is another overrated element. Most of the time you wouldn't see much difference from a good S-video connection to a component connection IMO (that obviously excludes comparisons to consoles that have mediocre S-video output such as the Gamecube or PS2). It's nothing like going to composite from RF or going S-video from composite. It's an improvement for sure but a marginal one.

We generalize the jump in quality from the different kinds of video signals but there are always exeptions. For example, I have a read user who swears his Genesis 3 console outputs better in RF than in composite. Some report marginal improvements from composite to s-video or like you from s-video to RGB. These opinions are all valid. Besides being relative and subjective, objectively there can be significant differences depending on the following combinations:
1-the console and its particular revision
2-its video encoder
3-software
4-quality of the tv and to a lesser extent
5-quality of cables/leads

[Guspaz]

The quality can change radically depending on how well or poorly a display handles a particular signal type. Displays with particularly bad handling of composite might see a huge increase in quality going to s-video or component simply because the composite handling is worse than it ought to be by comparison.

When I have to explain to people where different things are on the quality spectrum, I usually go with something like this (and I'm speaking from a perceptual in-game regular-gameplay standpoint, not looking at extreme examples where the differences are exacerbated):

RF: 0%
Composite: 10%
S-Video: 75%
Component: 95%
RGB: 100%

While component can sometimes rival RGB in quality (when you've got a good component signal, like what you get out of HDR's cables), there are enough examples of consoles having a worse component signal through the fault of the hardware rather than the connection type (example: PS2) that I think it should get placed a bit lower on the subjective scale.

[bobrocks95]

What size/model of tv do you use?

Transcoding from RGB to YPbPr is a simple mathematical transform and is in theory completely lossless.

Whether that happens in practice may be debatable, but the two shouldn't look different on the same set.
Of course, at the same time, CSY clones shouldn't have pots to adjust the picture, because again it's a set mathematical formula.

Personally speaking I couldn't imagine RGB looking any better on my set than transcoded component already does. Maybe it would, but fixing convergence issues would be a much bigger improvement on picture quality (though I've never felt daring enough to mess with the yoke).

I have a 32" Sony KV-32FV310, so its size definitely lends itself more to geometry and convergence issues. I also use a Keene SCART to component transcoder.

[nissling]

It's an improvement for sure but a marginal one.

This is all nonsense. RGB is a vast improvement over S-video and it will always be. Personally I don't even consider S-video as an option and I grew up with RGB here in Europe.

[Taiyaki]

I disagree. While the sharpness of s-video is very close to that of RGB, the colors are quite better on RGB. It's a substantial jump in color accuracy and contrast.

Having said that, s-video does look pretty nice (it's just that RGB is better). If someone wanted a cheap setup with a decent enough picture for low cost/hassle, I would recommend an SD CRT with consoles hooked up via S-video (I actually suggested just that to a friend who wanted to experience retro gaming on a crt.)

But if you're aiming for the best picture possible, definitly go with RGB. it's well worth it. it looks quite noticeably better than S-video.

To be honest the difference on my tubes is really quite light (I use a clone YUV encoder and highly shielded RGB cables, but I also use highly shielded gold plated S-video cables), and I've done comparisons on both entry range FS sets and higher end FV300 sets. I also tend to be OCD and pixel peep everywhere checking geometry and sharpness. Sharpness in most cases is nearly the same (with RGB getting a slight improvement upon close up inspection), and color wise I find some colors are tighter but other tones come through a little dryer, some people will prefer this, perhaps keeping in mind that it's the more accurate video, personally I tend to pick and chose depending on the console but for 2D systems I find myself preferring S-video. For any 3D console I go RGB except for the Saturn where I prefer S-video (maybe because of how many 2D games are on it).

Is RGB better than S-video? Of course yes. However I would actually argue that for some consoles colors actually get less nice on a consumer set when using RGB. Let's take the Genesis (which imo has great S-video when modded), the colors that come out through S-video are very organic when going to a consumer CRT (where as on a pro monitor they would look overly saturated and off color). Where as RGB will give tighter and fuller, yet arguably duller colors on these same sets.

Is it more accurate? It must be, but I'd argue the case that this doesn't necessarily result in a more desirable picture. Why this is? How can a lesser connection deliver a satisfying picture that a superior, more accurate one does not flat out visually demolish on a consumer tube? I wouldn't be able to say with certainty. However I suspect it's more to do with how a more "imperfect" consumer tube's inherent characteristics actually enhances elements of these weaker sources. In contrast on a pro monitor you are getting a lot of these uniquely CRT traits of phosphor tubes being corrected or tightened to deliver a more accurate video. In these conditions the difference between S-video and RGB are like night and day and generally the colors of RGB will always look better period. Again this is my opinion I'm sure many will disagree.

[FinalBaton]

To be honest the difference on my tubes is really quite light (I use a clone YUV encoder

this right here might be why you don't see a good improvment in colors. The CSY-2100 clones fare noticeably worse than a reference transcoder(Kramer FC-14) according to Fudoh. So basing your RGB comparison on the performance of a clone transcoder is not a fair one IMO.

[Shoryukev]

There are plenty of reasons some people use consumer CRTs. Better or worse, sometimes it all boils down to personal preferences.

In the US everyone I ever knew grew up using RF or composite video dang near up until the HD era. I was the only one in my group of friends who was using YPbPr and knew what 480p was in the PS2/xbox/Gamecube era. A lot of people who grew up using fuzzy RF and composite think that razor sharp graphics look unnatural with these old games, and some of them even dislike highly pronounced scanlines! Personally I absolutely LOVE scanlines, but I've had a few of my friends who aren't as into retro games as I am tell me "what's with the horizontal lines?". There's also the argument of dithering, which was often used in games to give the illusion of added color gradients that weren't actually there. The Sonic waterfall is probably the most famous one....but I could see some people preferring not to see the distinct separated colors.

Some people might actually prefer the way an RGB monitor looks, but prefer what they remember the game looking like when they played it when they were growing up. Nostalgia often points towards fuzzy composite or RF.

The last factor boils down to price. There are tons of people out there that either can't justify spending the money on an RGB monitor and the required cables, or are just happy with what they have and don't see it as a justifiable upgrade. There are also people out there that maybe want an RGB monitor, but can't find the one they want...or don't want to mod their systems that don't natively output RGB. Personally I love RGB and what it brings to the table: but I'm an enthusiast in retro games, electronics, etc....I'm not the same as the next guy.

1. Too sharp - dithering
2. Pronounced scanlines
3. Price - hassle - availability
4. Nostalgia

[azmun]

It's an improvement for sure but a marginal one.

This is all nonsense. RGB is a vast improvement over S-video and it will always be. Personally I don't even consider S-video as an option and I grew up with RGB here in Europe.

To diss s-video in such manner makes me wonder if you've truly seen the best this signal has to offer.

[nissling]

Call me picky or whatever you want. I've never seen the charm of S-Video, nor composite.

Besides, why would S-video even be an option by now? RGB is available on pretty much every console that someone would like to play one way or another. Only exception I can come to think of is the Commodore 64.

[Guspaz]

Call me picky or whatever you want. I've never seen the charm of S-Video, nor composite.

Besides, why would S-video even be an option by now? RGB is available on pretty much every console that someone would like to play one way or another. Only exception I can come to think of is the Commodore 64.

The N64 and GameCube are two major examples where s-video is the best quality output supported natively. Many GameCube's don't even have the digital port.

S-video has the same quality for luma data as RGB or component, and while the colour is lower quality, that's often not all that noticeable, especially once you get to the 3D consoles that it's most useful for.

The improvement from composite to s-video is massive. The improvement from s-video to RGB is much more modest.

[FinalBaton]

The improvement from composite to s-video is massive. The improvement from s-video to RGB is much more modest.

I used to believe that but after seeing(and experimenting with) s-video vs rgb on good monitors, on good consumer CRTs and on direct capture, I find s-video a bit maddening. Well to me it is at least. The color accuracy just isn't there, however you tweak your set. I personally think that the improvment from s-video to RGB is pretty big

colors on the PVM-2030 I had, and on my NEC XM37 Plus as well, are quite off through S-Video, compared to RGB. Lots of heavily saturated colors that shouldn't be, and toned down colors that should be saturated, etc. Plus the colors just aren't right.
but then again, I'm a perfectionnist when it comes to video picture.

But yeah, as I've said in an earlier post: no doubt that s-video is a big improvment over composite.

[azmun]

Besides, why would S-video even be an option by now? RGB is available on pretty much every console that someone would like to play one way or another. Only exception I can come to think of is the Commodore 64.

The N64 and GameCube are two major examples where s-video is the best quality output supported natively. Many GameCube's don't even have the digital port.

Just a little clarification, PAL GameCube consoles are equipped to output RGB natively if I'm not mistaken. Not sure about N64. So, just as some consoles output s-video as the best option, some tvs take in s-video as the best signal, like the XBR I'm using. And it produces a pretty damn fine picture quality. Sure, not as good as our Loewe (RGB via SCART) but a fair compromise!

[FinalBaton]

not as good as[...] RGB via SCART, but a fair compromise!

this is actually a very good way to describe s-video signals! it's a good compromise indeed

[Taiyaki]

To be honest the difference on my tubes is really quite light (I use a clone YUV encoder

this right here might be why you don't see a good improvment in colors. The CSY-2100 clones fare noticeably worse than a reference transcoder(Kramer FC-14) according to Fudoh. So basing your RGB comparison on the performance of a clone transcoder is not a fair one IMO.

This is the one I used (they still sell it years later):

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-SCART-RGB-t ... yF2RvMlcww


I had heard clones were often problematic but this was the one most recommended on threads like this. It worked fine on a pro monitor when I tested to see whether it was a lemon or not, so I don't think it's to blame but it's still possible it is. I just feel that consumer sets do some magic to composite and S-video connections. S-video improves everything wrong with composite (excess color bleeding and lack of sharpness), in turn rgb on these same 2d consoles will mostly flatten the colors and give a slight but not very noticeable boost in sharpness. I think as some right above mentionned, it really does come down to personal preferences. I was just trying to offer a different point of view from the norm here which is rgb scart > all.

If the sharpest and most advanced picture was ultimately most desirable than we shouldn't even be playing on crt's at all. Some folks even prefer the curved 80's tubes (some even prefer 70's tubes still in wooden frames). The fascinating thing with crt, is that it isn't about getting the most flat out accurate picture but get the most pleasing one. It's always going to be very subjective I think.

[Guspaz]

The improvement from composite to s-video is massive. The improvement from s-video to RGB is much more modest.

I used to believe that but after seeing(and experimenting with) s-video vs rgb on good monitors, on good consumer CRTs and on direct capture, I find s-video a bit maddening. Well to me it is at least. The color accuracy just isn't there, however you tweak your set. I personally think that the improvment from s-video to RGB is pretty big

colors on the PVM-2030 I had, and on my NEC XM37 Plus as well, are quite off through S-Video, compared to RGB. Lots of heavily saturated colors that shouldn't be, and toned down colors that should be saturated, etc. Plus the colors just aren't right.
but then again, I'm a perfectionnist when it comes to video picture.

But yeah, as I've said in an earlier post: no doubt that s-video is a big improvment over composite.

I'm comparing on my PVM, which I had calibrated for s-video using the SMPTE test pattern, and I tweaked the chroma timing via the service menu (so that the chroma smear was even on either side of stuff and not all on the right), so the colours didn't really change much when I moved to RGB. There was definitely an improvement, particularly in red areas like health bars. Anything colourful was sharper.

On my projector, comparing s-video to RGB (or rather the HDR cables), the difference is more subtle: the projector does a really good job quantizing things into square pixels and aligning the chroma to the luma. It still did make a significant improvement in high-contrast colour areas, though.

Just a little clarification, PAL GameCube consoles are equipped to output RGB natively if I'm not mistaken. Not sure about N64. So, just as some consoles output s-video as the best option, some tvs take in s-video as the best signal, like the XBR I'm using. And it produces a pretty damn fine picture quality. Sure, not as good as our Loewe (RGB via SCART) but a fair compromise!

This is true for the GameCube: I've done exactly that and put a PAL motherboard into my NTSC console in order to get RGB out (it's much cheaper to do that than gcvideo or the component cables if you just want 240p/480i).

PAL users really got the short end of the stick with the N64, though. While the NTSC N64 supported both composite and s-video, the PAL N64 only officially supported composite*.

*: There was never an official PAL s-video cable, but my understanding is that certain models of the PAL N64 can use a specially wired s-video cable to get a signal.

[mvsfan]

I noticed a Big Jump in quality when I installed Viletims nesrgb component add on board in my SNES. the color depth is just so much better.

it looks so much better now over the csy2100 clone i was using before.

I think its time to try this board in some other consoles too.

[Einzelherz]

I noticed a Big Jump in quality when I installed Viletims nesrgb component add on board in my SNES. the color depth is just so much better.

it looks so much better now over the csy2100 clone i was using before.

I think its time to try this board in some other consoles too.

Not necessarily @ mvsfan but,

Maybe it's a dumb question but why couldn't you install a similar board between the YUV plugs on a modern CRT and feed the set RGB?

[nissling]

The N64 and GameCube are two major examples where s-video is the best quality output supported natively.

And that's why you should modify the N64. Like mentioned the GC outputs RGB within PAL territory.

PC-E, 3Do, Nes and Atari 2600 can also be modded for RGB. I don't see the reason not to.