Why has the cost of Gamecubes increased so much recently?

[FBX]

I've got a Media Launcher disc and card that I use to run GBI.LL into my Framemeister. While the picture quality is MANY times better than the default 480i/p, it's still a bit off from pixel-perfect. The image is very definitely softer looking than say model 1 Genesis or a 1CHIP SNES.

I mean pixel-perfect in that it's outputting the Game Boy pixels 1:1 with no scaling, no interpolation, and no filtering. If you output HDMI from the cube, then it's perfectly sharp.

Over s-video, I'd put the output quality as a little better than my non-1CHIP SNES, but not as good as my PSOne. I've recently swapped the motherboard with a PAL one to get RGB output, but I don't have the RGB cables for it.

Actually there's a problem I found with the Game Boy "regular" mode with the GBI.LL I've been using, and that's the horizontal axis is not an integer of the original graphics. There's very definite 'sizzle' when scrolling a Game Boy Game horizontally, and it looks to be because Extrems coded the default aspect ratio to be 4:3 rather than a square pixel ratio. I've asked him to look into this, as it is right now my only real complaint about GBI.

[Pasky]

Sorry to derail a bit, anyone got a link to this HDMI mod for the cube? Info and where to purchase/build (if possible). Thanks.

[Einzelherz]

I've got a Media Launcher disc and card that I use to run GBI.LL into my Framemeister. While the picture quality is MANY times better than the default 480i/p, it's still a bit off from pixel-perfect. The image is very definitely softer looking than say model 1 Genesis or a 1CHIP SNES.

I've recently swapped the motherboard with a PAL one to get RGB output, but I don't have the RGB cables for it.

Does it still require a PAL Gameboy Player + PAL disc?

[Guspaz]

Actually there's a problem I found with the Game Boy "regular" mode with the GBI.LL I've been using, and that's the horizontal axis is not an integer of the original graphics. There's very definite 'sizzle' when scrolling a Game Boy Game horizontally, and it looks to be because Extrems coded the default aspect ratio to be 4:3 rather than a square pixel ratio. I've asked him to look into this, as it is right now my only real complaint about GBI.

I've not noticed that, it looks normal to me.

Does it still require a PAL Gameboy Player + PAL disc?

The Game Boy Player is not region-specific, it was identical in all regions. The disc was region-locked because it needed to be used on region-locked cubes.

I've got an NTSC drive in the cube (with the PAL motherboard), which I think means that the overall console would be NTSC region-locked, but since I've got a XenoGC chip in the drive, I don't believe the region checks are being performed anyhow.

In any event, I use GBI, not the GBP disc.

[Ikaruga11]

I've got an NTSC drive in the cube (with the PAL motherboard)

What are the specific advantages of this? Why not just an NTSC GameCube?

[Ikaruga11]

I'd say you deserve to get ripped off if you feel you need to get 15 year old stuff in perfect condition.

I'd say you're poor as fuck who deserves nothing more than a dirty crusty GameCube with scratches and dust inside.

[Guspaz]

I've got an NTSC drive in the cube (with the PAL motherboard)

What are the specific advantages of this? Why not just an NTSC GameCube?

PAL gamecubes support RGB video output. NTSC gamescubes don't*. Installing a PAL motherboard into an NTSC console would seem to be a cheap RGB mod, although I've not been able to confirm if this combination actually works since I don't have the video cable yet. I can confirm it boots GBI and NTSC games, since I do have audio cables.

*: The GameCube does output YCbCr over the digital AV port, which can be converted to RGB, but this requires either the $200-300 component video cables, or the GCVideo-Lite mod, which isn't much cheaper when you add up the cost of buying the gcvideo lite, shipping the cube to somebody, paying them to install it, and shipping it back. A PAL GameCube will output RGB with a cheap SCART cble, and costs maybe $20-25 USD.

[bobrocks95]

I've got a Media Launcher disc and card that I use to run GBI.LL into my Framemeister. While the picture quality is MANY times better than the default 480i/p, it's still a bit off from pixel-perfect. The image is very definitely softer looking than say model 1 Genesis or a 1CHIP SNES.

Through component on a CRT it looks just as sharp as any other console I own. Can't speak to the Framemeister of course. It is a very unique output situation (160p window in a 240p signal)- maybe you need to tweak settings some more? Might also be outputting in 480p, which would likely look worse on the Framemeister. I think you can change this by booting up a game and choosing to NOT turn on progressive scan (though this might just apply to the ULL version?).

Actually there's a problem I found with the Game Boy "regular" mode with the GBI.LL I've been using, and that's the horizontal axis is not an integer of the original graphics. There's very definite 'sizzle' when scrolling a Game Boy Game horizontally, and it looks to be because Extrems coded the default aspect ratio to be 4:3 rather than a square pixel ratio. I've asked him to look into this, as it is right now my only real complaint about GBI.

I responded to you on gc-forever as well, but I haven't noticed this on a CRT and I'm curious if it happens with GBA games as well? As I said over there, no command line arguments for the low-lag versions.

Sorry to derail a bit, anyone got a link to this HDMI mod for the cube? Info and where to purchase/build (if possible). Thanks.

https://github.com/ikorb/gcvideo
That should cover everything you need. Currently targets an FPGA dev-board but I think everything's there for you to make your own board if you like.

I'd say you deserve to get ripped off if you feel you need to get 15 year old stuff in perfect condition.

I'd say you're poor as fuck who deserves nothing more than a dirty crusty GameCube with scratches and dust inside.

Is this a joke post

[FBX]

I've got a Media Launcher disc and card that I use to run GBI.LL into my Framemeister. While the picture quality is MANY times better than the default 480i/p, it's still a bit off from pixel-perfect. The image is very definitely softer looking than say model 1 Genesis or a 1CHIP SNES.

Through component on a CRT it looks just as sharp as any other console I own. Can't speak to the Framemeister of course. It is a very unique output situation (160p window in a 240p signal)- maybe you need to tweak settings some more? Might also be outputting in 480p, which would likely look worse on the Framemeister. I think you can change this by booting up a game and choosing to NOT turn on progressive scan (though this might just apply to the ULL version?).

Actually there's a problem I found with the Game Boy "regular" mode with the GBI.LL I've been using, and that's the horizontal axis is not an integer of the original graphics. There's very definite 'sizzle' when scrolling a Game Boy Game horizontally, and it looks to be because Extrems coded the default aspect ratio to be 4:3 rather than a square pixel ratio. I've asked him to look into this, as it is right now my only real complaint about GBI.

I responded to you on gc-forever as well, but I haven't noticed this on a CRT and I'm curious if it happens with GBA games as well? As I said over there, no command line arguments for the low-lag versions.
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Only happens on regular Game Boy/color mode. GBA appears integer-perfect. And it has nothing to do with Framemeister settings. The Game Boy/Color horizontal scroll sizzle is very clearly coming from the input source and not the Framemeister itself.

Also the image is very definitely softer as I explained compared to Genesis or 1CHIP SNES units. You can't tell on a CRT because it is less defined than a 1080p display with sharp focus settings (H_SCALE = 4, V_SCALE = 7).

[Guspaz]

Hmm, I've been mostly playing GBA games. I'll throw Super Mario Land 2 in there tonight and see.

[FBX]

Hmm, I've been mostly playing GBA games. I'll throw Super Mario Land 2 in there tonight and see.

Try it with Metroid 2. Run to the right away from the ship and observe the graphics as you scroll the game. Make sure to set the H and V Scale settings as I described so you can see the pixels in their sharply focused state. Also this is on a 1080p LCD. CRTs may not reveal the subtle nature of the stretched pixels.

[Guspaz]

I don't have Metroid II, and my PVM doesn't have any scaling settings.

[FBX]

I don't have Metroid II, and my PVM doesn't have any scaling settings.

The you can't really test this. I'm using a 1080p display which sharply defines the pixels when I set the Framemeister's scaler function to do so. A CRT likely will not have the detail on the horizontal axis to reveal the oblong pixels artifacts from not being an integer of the original Game Boy's 160 pixel resolution.

[Guspaz]

If you're saying that a non-integer scaling is being used, then some columns of pixels should be two source pixels wide, and that should be visible regardless of if it's on a CRT or a Framemeister.

[Einzelherz]

Interested to find out about the PAL motherboard conversion. Please keep us updated, Guspaz.

[Ikaruga11]

I've got an NTSC drive in the cube (with the PAL motherboard)

What are the specific advantages of this? Why not just an NTSC GameCube?

PAL gamecubes support RGB video output. NTSC gamescubes don't*. Installing a PAL motherboard into an NTSC console would seem to be a cheap RGB mod, although I've not been able to confirm if this combination actually works since I don't have the video cable yet. I can confirm it boots GBI and NTSC games, since I do have audio cables.

*: The GameCube does output YCbCr over the digital AV port, which can be converted to RGB, but this requires either the $200-300 component video cables, or the GCVideo-Lite mod, which isn't much cheaper when you add up the cost of buying the gcvideo lite, shipping the cube to somebody, paying them to install it, and shipping it back. A PAL GameCube will output RGB with a cheap SCART cble, and costs maybe $20-25 USD.

Can your GameCube output RGB in native 480p? Is it better than HDMI 480p, VGA 480p or YPbPr 480p? Also, is there any difference in conversion quality from YCbCr -> YPbPr and YCbCr -> RGB?

Since YCbCr/YPbPr is the color space used for Japanese and North American GameCubes, wouldn't that be the intended color space the developers designed their games with in mind?

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Speaking of the GameBoy Player and GameBoy Interface, one feature I'd like to see implemented are the game-specific borders seen on the Super GameBoy and Super GameBoy 2 for the SNES/Super Famicom. The border information is stored in games. If only there were some way to pull it out and use it like the SGB/SGB2 do.





One interesting thing to note is that Crystal has no border.

-----------------------------------

Another feature I'd like to see implemented in the GBI is the smart color mapping that the SGB and SGB2 do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0xLy6-_570

The GameBoy Player Disc seems to use an ugly red/green combination for the entire game, while the Super GameBoy [2] uses a colorful and smartly mapped pallete that changes between each area. I've heard that the color combination for the GBP can be changed by holding different buttons upon bootup, but SGB/SGB2 is still superior. Has the GBI fixed this?

[Guspaz]

Can your GameCube output RGB in native 480p?

No, but my PVM can't display 480p, so it's not really a concern for me. It can only display 240p and 480i, which is what the PAL GameCube's RGB output supports. Furthermore, 480p doesn't really benefit GBI (the only thing I use my GameCube for), since the source platforms are 144p or 160p resolution. I crank up the overscan on the PVM sometimes to make it take up more of the screen.

Is it better than HDMI 480p, VGA 480p or YPbPr 480p?

No, and since it uses composite video sync, it's probably a bit worse. But it should be better than s-video, which is the best the NTSC GameCube can output without spending a large amount of money. You're not going to get any of those options without either paying $200-300 for digital cables, or (taking a guess) $150-200 all-in for a GCVideo install.

Also, is there any difference in conversion quality from YCbCr -> YPbPr and YCbCr -> RGB?

Those conversions are all done internally, so probably not, but I've not compared them. I believe RetroRGB does have some comparison screenshots on just that matter, though, where he compares the PAL RGB output to the NTSC YPbPr output.

Since YCbCr/YPbPr is the color space used for Japanese and North American GameCubes, wouldn't that be the intended color space the developers designed their games with in mind?

That's the internal colour space, but basically 99.9% of GameCube customers (at least in North America) were using composite or s-video, not RGB or component. Composite video is going to mess with your colours way more than good colourspace conversion would (ideally, it wouldn't impact them at all).

Speaking of the GameBoy Player and GameBoy Interface, one feature I'd like to see implemented are the game-specific borders seen on the Super GameBoy and Super GameBoy 2 for the SNES/Super Famicom. The border information is stored in games. If only there were some way to pull it out and use it like the SGB/SGB2 do.

AFAIK this is impossible, because GBI doesn't have access to the Game Boy cartridge data. The Game Boy Player is a full blown Game Boy Advance, and all GBI can do is act as an interface between the GBA and the GameCube.

Another feature I'd like to see implemented in the GBI is the smart color mapping that the SGB and SGB2 do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0xLy6-_570

The GameBoy Player Disc seems to use an ugly red/green combination for the entire game. I've heard that the color combination can be changed by holding different buttons upon bootup, but SGB/SGB2 is still superior. Has the GBI fixed this?

That's also impossible, because the Game Boy Advance doesn't support that. All that stuff was done with SNES code on the GameBoy cartridges. The Game Boy Player, with a handful of exceptions, behaves exactly like a standalone GBA, and that includes changing the palettes with button combinations.

Pokemon Red/Blue behave that way because they only support their palette stuff on the Super Game Boy, not the Game Boy Colour (which the Game Boy Advance emulates). That feature was added in Pokemon Yellow, which supports colour palettes on both the Super Game Boy and the Game Boy Color. So you want to use that game for playing on the Game Boy Color or newer.


I think it bears repeating, because many people seem confused on the point: neither the Game Boy Player nor Game Boy Interface involve any emulation. The Game Boy Player is literally a Game Boy Advance with the power/video/audio/controllers connected to the GameCube via the high speed port. All the software (be it the official disc or GBI) can do is control how the GameCube interfaces with the Game Boy Player.

[Ikaruga11]

AFAIK this is impossible, because GBI doesn't have access to the Game Boy cartridge data. The Game Boy Player is a full blown Game Boy Advance, and all GBI can do is act as an interface between the GBA and the GameCube.

That sucks. If only there was a way. Maybe modding the GameBoy Player to pull that code from the cartridges.

That's also impossible, because the Game Boy Advance doesn't support that. All that stuff was done with SNES code on the GameBoy cartridges. The Game Boy Player, with a handful of exceptions, behaves exactly like a standalone GBA, and that includes changing the palettes with button combinations.

So the GameBoy cartridges had SNES code inside them that would launch exclusively when used on the Super GameBoy? The GameBoy Advance (and by extension the GameBoy Player and DS/DS Lite) doesn't utilize that code, so no borders or smart palettes.

Pokemon Red/Blue behave that way because they only support their palette stuff on the Super Game Boy, not the Game Boy Colour (which the Game Boy Advance emulates). That feature was added in Pokemon Yellow, which supports colour palettes on both the Super Game Boy and the Game Boy Color. So you want to use that game for playing on the Game Boy Color or newer.

So basically, the only way to have Red & Blue look good is on the Super GameBoy 2? The GBA emulates GBC palettes?

I think it bears repeating, because many people seem confused on the point: neither the Game Boy Player nor Game Boy Interface involve any emulation. The Game Boy Player is literally a Game Boy Advance with the power/video/audio/controllers connected to the GameCube via the high speed port. All the software (be it the official disc or GBI) can do is control how the GameCube interfaces with the Game Boy Player.

Oh, alright. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Guspaz]

So the GameBoy cartridges had SNES code inside them that would launch exclusively when used on the Super GameBoy? The GameBoy Advance (and by extension the GameBoy Player and DS/DS Lite) doesn't utilize that code, so no borders or smart palettes.

The Super Game Boy had the ability to apply a custom palette to certain regions of the screen (including setting the overall palette for the screen), although each region was still subject to the 4-colour limitation of the Game Boy, and it could only change them so often. These games contained SNES code that did this. Some games took it a bit farther, with Space Invaders taking it to the extreme and actually loading a complete SNES game onto the game boy cartridge.

This series of articles is a great explanation of exactly what the Super Game Boy was and how it worked (yes, it has a rather colourful name):

http://loveconquersallgam.es/post/23504 ... troduction

The Super Game Boy only supports original Game Boy games, and some of those were enhanced to take advantage of what the Super Nintendo and Super Game Boy could do.

The Game Boy Color is different, its colour works more like the NES. It doesn't assign custom palettes to regions of the screen, it assigns custom palettes to specific tiles or sprites, regardless of where they're drawn on the screen. The Super Game Boy does not support Game Boy Color games (since it predates it) since it contains the hardware of an original Game Boy, and the Game Boy Color didn't support any super-isms, since they required the SNES. The Game Boy Color supports classic GB games, as well as GBC games that take advantage of the slightly updated hardware: really the GBC looks a lot like a GB with a higher clockspeed and more RAM, although I'm not an expert on the actual low-level architecture.

When Nintendo introduced the Game Boy Advance, they wanted to maintain backwards compatibility, and they did that in a kind of hacky way: they basically shoved the complete hardware of a Game Boy Color inside the Game Boy Advance. This is why the Game Boy Advance acts exactly like a Game Boy Color when you put a GB/GBC game in, to the extent that the startup screen is the same as the GBC, and the palette selection is the same as the GBC. In fact, they took this to kind of an extreme: there is literally a physical switch in the cartridge slot of the Game Boy Advance, which only GB/GBC games push due to the slightly different shape of the cartridge from GBA games. When this switch is pushed, it basically turns the GBA into a GBC. GB/GBC games and GBA games, IIRC, don't even use the same voltage, and the GB/GBC processor was bulky, so this really was a hacky setup. But the upside is that the Game Boy Advance had great backwards compatibility with every GB and GBC game ever made, on top of all the GBA games. That's all the games for Nintendo handhelds over 19 years, all supported by one console. Not bad!

The Game Boy Player is basically just a GBA that's wired up a bit different, so it inherits the nature of the GBA, including how backwards compatibility is supported. It's got a switch in the cartridge slot which changes it to act like a GBC, since it has a set of the hardware of the GBC inside it.

So basically, the only way to have Red & Blue look good is on the Super GameBoy 2? The GBA emulates GBC palettes?

The GBA doesn't emulate GBC palettes, it literally becomes a GBC, since it has the full GBC hardware inside. The Super Game Boy is the only way to play Red and Blue in pseudo-color, but as I said, the best way is to actually use Pokemon Yellow. It's an enhanced version of Red/Blue, with the obvious change being Pikachu as the starter, but the more notable change being support for the Game Boy Color (and by extension the GBA). You can read about the differences between Red/Blue and Yellow here:

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/ ... C_and_Blue

[Ikaruga11]

Oh, I see. Thank you very much. Do you think it's worth getting a Super GameBoy 2 if I already have a GameBoy Color, a GBA SP AGS-101, and a GameBoy Player with the GameBoy Interface?

[Guspaz]

I think the only advantage at this point is that a SNES outputs native RGB, while the GameCube by default is probably going to be S-Video for most people. And if games specifically support the Super Game Boy.

[Ikaruga11]

I think the only advantage at this point is that a SNES outputs native RGB, while the GameCube by default is probably going to be S-Video for most people. And if games specifically support the Super Game Boy.

Well, I have the official GameCube component cables in pristine condition. Using the Ultra-Low Latency version of the GameBoy Interface, how does that compare to to the Super GameBoy 2 on an SNES Mini modded with RGB?

[Guspaz]

I'm not familiar with the latency of the Super Game Boy: I've not tested it and haven't heard anybody talk about it. To be honest, I'm not sure how the video synchronization with the SNES and the Super Game Boy works. I'd imagine it's pretty low.

[bobrocks95]

Well, I have the official GameCube component cables in pristine condition. Using the Ultra-Low Latency version of the GameBoy Interface, how does that compare to to the Super GameBoy 2 on an SNES Mini modded with RGB?

I remember reading about some sort of disadvantage of the Super Gameboy. I think it does framerate conversion? Either way the GBI is better aside from the Super Gameboy exclusive features.

[Ikaruga11]

I remember reading about some sort of disadvantage of the Super Gameboy. I think it does framerate conversion? Either way the GBI is better aside from the Super Gameboy exclusive features.

Yes, the clock speed.

The original Super Game Boy is known to play the game program and its audio 2.4% faster than other Game Boy hardware. This is due to the use of the Super NES's clock speed divided by 5, which ends up being 4.295 MHz instead of 4.194 MHz. This causes a video "stutter" every few frames, which is most noticeable in side-scrolling games. Also, the games play slightly faster, which also results in a slight audio pitch change.

The SGB 2 runs at the GB's original clock speed of 4.194 MHz, which makes gameplay feel much smoother. Also, the SGB 2 also had a game link port built in, allowing 2-player support with either a Game Boy, or a second SNES / SGB2.

http://retrorgb.com/supergameboy.html

In my opinion for GameBoy games: SGB2 > GBI > SGB = GBP Disc

[bobrocks95]

I meant to mention that but I typed it in a hurry- I mean the Super Gameboy 2 still has some disadvantage. I think it is outputting at a different framerate than the GB originally did, though the clock speed is corrected.

[Guspaz]

Well, that page reminds me that the Super Gameboy stretches out the image something fierce, so the Game Boy Player is going to give you a much more accurate aspect ratio.

The SNES outputs a 256 pixel wide image, while the GameCube is 320 pixels wide. Both are displayed at 4:3, so the image gets stretched out by 25% on the Super Game Boy 1 and 2.

[Guspaz]

I don't have Metroid II, and my PVM doesn't have any scaling settings.

The you can't really test this. I'm using a 1080p display which sharply defines the pixels when I set the Framemeister's scaler function to do so. A CRT likely will not have the detail on the horizontal axis to reveal the oblong pixels artifacts from not being an integer of the original Game Boy's 160 pixel resolution.

I tested it out, and I definitely do not see the problem you're describing. I moved left and right on the SML2 overworld, and watched some single-pixel-wide features, and they definitely did not resize.

Extrems did seem to imply in his post on GC-Forever that the problem exists, but I can't see it even when looking for it.

[Ikaruga11]

Well, that page reminds me that the Super Gameboy stretches out the image something fierce, so the Game Boy Player is going to give you a much more accurate aspect ratio.

The SNES outputs a 256 pixel wide image, while the GameCube is 320 pixels wide. Both are displayed at 4:3, so the image gets stretched out by 25% on the Super Game Boy 1 and 2.

I did some research and it seems that the Super Game Boy 2 has the exact some frame rate of 59.7fps as the original GameBoy hardware.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doNLo-mn8Pw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alV7QTMewSA


So the advantage are borders and color palettes, while having a softer image due to being stretched and possibly slightly slower loading times.

[bobrocks95]

If those videos are your basis for determining the Super Gameboy 2 is running at 59.7Hz, know that the Gameboy Player isn't running at 59.7Hz either. Those videos basically confirm that it's running at the typical NTSC 59.94Hz actually.