You really need to play Eschatos

[Lobinden]

Eschatos' soundtrack is 10/10, Yousuke Yasui is my homeboi.

Unfortunately I don't have an xbox 360 at the moment, so I can't actually play it. Here's hoping for a PC port (maybe Degica or Nyu Media could help?).

[Squire Grooktook]

I never really understood people's complaints about the Eschatos bosses. I remember hearing somebody say they "weren't like the Judgement Silversword patterns," and that Ginga Force was a return to form. Personally I love the bosses in both games, though I think I might like Eschatos's better just for how fast and furious they are.

I guess some of JSS's later bosses (Divine Flow) are a bit more danmaku-ish then Eschatos? Dunno. I think the bosses in Eschatos are great though, although the stage 3 boss is a little bit easy. I actually prefer the rotating UFO's on stage 2.

[pestro87]

Oh man, if Natsuki Chronicle combined the best parts of Eschatos (the stages) and the best parts of Ginga Force (the bosses) and made it a standard arcade shooter, I think it would be the best of the genre.

So much this!!! I really hope that they switch to vert for Natsuki Chronicles as well (in the trailer they stated that it would be a hori) and that they add similar Training Mode stages like in Ginga Force as an added bonus/unlockable. It will be interesting to see what they do with it. I wonder what the scoring mechanics will be like and in which direction they'll take it. The complexity of the scoring mechanics in Ginga Force is quite high, borderline convoluted imo like the fact that the bronze CR that you get from the bullet cancels is actually relative to the damage that you deal to the enemy over time (apart from the amount of bullets on screen at the time of the cancel). It might not be apparent at first but if you sit down and do some experiments on the larger cancels, you'll find out that that's the case. I would prefer if Qute tried to find a middle ground between Eschatos and Ginga Force for the scoring mechanics in Natsuki Chronicles.

Having that said, the fact that we still haven't seen any gameplay videos from Natsuki Chronicles has me a bit worried... But I believe that it was the same with Ginga Force (and I'm guessing Eschatos too?) in that we didn't see any gameplay footage and then suddenly the game was coming out in a few months, so I'll keep my faith in M-KAI. He has certainly proved that he can deliver!

Anyways... Yes, Eschatos is awesome. I would love to see a DC release of it but that's definitely never going to happen I think it kinda has a DC feel to it in terms of the graphics and arcadey gameplay.

[Heavy Viper]

Eschatos is basically what I thought (hoped?) video games would be like in the future when I was a kid.

[MathU]

As soon as the 360 gets emulated I'll get right on it.

—What is the ideal STG to you?
M-KAI: One that continues to surprise and delight you when you least expect it.

Good to hear that they're Hellsinker fans though.

[Plasmo]

Eschatos is basically what I thought (hoped?) video games would be like in the future when I was a kid.

I really like this post. Well put, I feel similar.

[ogremonk]

I think Eschatos is a very bad game, here my agruments:

- I don't have money for imports.

(pls send me a copy)

[Special World]

I think the Eschatos/Ginga Force double pack is $40, which is cheaper than a new domestic game... Don't quote me though, cuz I ain't sure.

[emphatic]

It seems I have to buy this now. Is there any reason to buy it brand new (DLC card?) or what?

[HydrogLox]

No, used is fine. The original (Tokyo SHMUPS! console titles) contains a soundtrack, the wonder price version (play-asia) does not.

I think the Eschatos/Ginga Force double pack is $40.

Those days are gone: $85+ now - Play-Asia charged $86.99 back in January (2015).

[Plasmo]

It seems I have to buy this now.

Do it! It's absolutely superb. Easily top 3 in the 360 shmups library.

[emphatic]

Cool, thanks. Gonna get a brand new, cheaper copy on eBay, it's not even 300 SEK shipped.

[Enemy]

Oh god ... one of those people who bought it, played it a handful of times and then forgot about it. Really want to give it some time now as the past posts are soooooo passionate. Think being a 2d guy to go to the 3d art style just seems an instant put-off but i will crack it open again and have a few blasts on it after the love its getting!

[Bonus!]

No, used is fine. The original (Tokyo SHMUPS! console titles) contains a soundtrack, the wonder price version (play-asia) does not.

I think the Eschatos/Ginga Force double pack is $40.

Those days are gone: $85+ now - Play-Asia charged $86.99 back in January (2015).

I think there is some confusion. The Eschatos budget re-release is (was?) very cheap, and could be had for about $30, possibly even less. However, the Wonder Pack has had an $85+ price point since its release. Thankfully I bought it when the exchange rate was more favourably than it is nowadays.

[Special World]

Oh god ... one of those people who bought it, played it a handful of times and then forgot about it. Really want to give it some time now as the past posts are soooooo passionate. Think being a 2d guy to go to the 3d art style just seems an instant put-off but i will crack it open again and have a few blasts on it after the love its getting!

When I looked at the game for the first time I was like "wow they really didn't even try huh"

And now it's like... I get it. I get exactly why Eschatos looks the way it does. And what's more, it looks great. The stars in this game, man. They're beautiful. I hope you enjoy it when you get around to replaying, because it really is something special.

[Nick420]

Everything you listed in your second post makes perfect sense

[Cagar]

You own Eschatos > Why aren't you playing Eschatos right now

Quite some reasons:
-It looks terrible. Really amateurish PS2-tier 3D models.
-Too simple (=boring) scoring
-Some memoshit
-The shots feel annoying as hell. You feel like you're playing a joke ship
-Cinematic angles keep killing you and barely add any feel to the game
-Sound effects make me want to vomit

- Actually makes you think about what you're doing instead of just holding the shot button like a blind dumb baby

I'm not sure if this is a minus or a plus

I dunno, I tried playing and liking it but couldn't. It just doesn't feel like anything. Everything feels hollow and lifeless.
The only real plus I can think of the game is the soundtrack- and even that is worse than the remixes/arranges of it.
Eschatos sucks tbh.

come at me

[trap15]

You're wrong in every point.

[Squire Grooktook]

When I first played Eschatos, it felt good to me, but it didn't blow me away. I had just gotten my 360 and was trying out all the Cave games along with Eschatos.

The Cave games all felt the same to me (after all the hype for Mushi over the years, I was really expecting to be blown away by that one, but for the longest time it just felt like "another Cave game" albeit a pretty polished one), and Eschatos felt different but didn't totally blow me away either. However, the more I played it, the more I realized just how much nuance and uniqueness there was to it.

I don't think the scoring is too simple at all. Conceptually, it's no less simple then Dodonpachi chaining or Mars Matrix medal chaining, and I don't like scoring systems more complex then that anyway. The first stage might give it the illusion of lacking depth since you can (nearly) perfect it almost every time, but after that, it takes a lot more risk/reward and extremely tight and aggressive maneuvers to get a half decent score.

Another thing that I think really boosts the scoring fun, is that it's not just about routing/memo. While routing definitely is needed for a good score, there's a lot of randomized enemy positions so you need to have some good improv/twitch skills too in order to get things down. I find this makes both scoring and survival extremely vibrant.

As for the rest of the points, I don't really feel it. Sound effects are good to me, graphics are spartan but some of the setpieces are cool as fuck (SPAAAAACEEEE) and appearances are always just icing on the cake for me with a shmup, weapon never felt underpowered, etc. Only one I agree with is that one or two of the cinematic angles killed me a bunch in hard mode, but that's a minor issue.

- Actually makes you think about what you're doing instead of just holding the shot button like a blind dumb baby

I'm not sure if this is a minus or a plus

I really like games where offense is not something so automated that you might as well not even be pressing the button. Melee attacks, unique weapons, positioning, aiming etc. are what I like for offensive mechanics. Dodging is my favorite part of shmups but it's a genre about Shooting and Dodging so a game is only half great if great dodging is all it has IMO.

[SuperSoaker360]

....

My taste > Your taste

[Special World]

I disagree, but there's not much point in arguing. If you don't like the sound effects, then you've had a completely different experience than me. I've heard some people say that the deathexplosion your ship makes is too violent, jarring even. But to me, that's the point. I think all the sound effects work, and I'll admit that I'm not even remotely skilled enough at describing sounds to say why they work for me. But when I think of Eschatos, I think of one of the most fundamentally satisfying shooting games I've ever played, and there's no way I could feel that way if I thought the sound effects were wrong.

The graphics achieve a stylistic effect for me. Yes, they're simple. Spartan, even. When I saw the game in preview videos I thought it looked really sloppy. Having played it and replayed it, I feel like it's just the 3D realization of what shooters used to be. Some enemies are simply 3D versions of the Judgement Silversword sprites, but overall they look like the modern version of the types of enemies you'd see in Space Invaders or Zanac, or some other really early shooting game. Just simple, geometric shapes that are lent personality. And then later on, some pretty bizarre alien figures that I think add to the ambiance of the game. The UFOs are almost like classic American sci-fi, but then things just get weird. But I think the graphical simplicity is one of the things that makes certain moments all the more stunning for their contrast. Launching into space and seeing the stars—it's beautiful, it's artistic, it's an authored moment that doesn't exist in any other game. That is a moment and a feeling that only exists for me in Eschatos. And when you get to the final boss and see it's this... almost neural network of pinpricks, starlike but arranged into a thinking mind, that's something that goes beyond "this is alien" and instead implies a common link between the universe and the origins of man.

Like Grooktook said, I don't think it's too simple, and in fact I would say it's a step up from Dodonpachi. To me, Dodonpachi feels in many ways like a puzzle with very few "correct" solutions, meant to be teased out and solved. While the same could be said of Eschatos, I think it has a lot more "noise," and feels somewhat sloppy in a way that works to the game's benefit. It doesn't feel like "okay, chain chain, millisecond wait chain," it feels more like diving into a messy battle and creating order in that moment. To me it's a lot more immediate, like I'm simply playing well instead of holding one part of my brain aside to tell me "okay, now you do this."

If anything, I'd argue that the game only suffers from being too complicated. I think advanced mode needs a little bit of streamlining and simplifying to be as good as it could be. I still think it's great, though.

I will take limited weaponry over bullet hell "okay everything is dying now" weaponry any day. Before Eschatos I didn't even imagine that there could be something with Cave's shooting or Hudson's level 5 shots. But now it seems too simple to just have this screen-covering weapon that you barely even have to pay attention to. I still love games that have blanket shooting, but I do think that some of the joy of shooting is lost if it becomes automatic or inconsequential.

The camera angles can suck during one or two scenes (I think anything involving those green ribbon lasers) but in my experience the shield does a lot to counter that.

If the game feels hollow and lifeless, we're not even playing the same game. Every so often in my life I've heard an album and said "this is really boring" and then that ends up becoming one of my favorite albums. Hounds of Love, Mice and Rats in the Loft, Marquee Moon, Obscura, you name it. Just today I discovered that I absolutely love Zanac—I had no idea. It just takes my head being arranged in a certain way at a certain time. I hope that happens to you with Eschatos; not because I want you to "have a good opinion" (please), but because I think this is a unique and special game, and I would love for everyone to draw as much enjoyment out of it as I have.

[Cagar]

Great post!
While I agree with many of the things you mentioned, the game just hasn't clicked for me in any way.

I might have chosen a bad word for the scoring though; because I certainly like simple scoring systems, and a scoring system should NEVER require a manual.
The game just doesn't give me the natural urge to score. It's really hard to explain (especially at around 6am).
I myself have a WIP shmup project where the scoring is as simple as "destroy", but I have my ways and plans to make it interesting and hectic:
There's a counter right next to your ship, the enemies have lots of destructible parts, they shoot lots of destructible (even 'defensive') bullet patterns etc.
but the scoring in eschatos just feels very hollow to me somehow, despite it requiring you a aggressive playstyle. I can't get my finger on a single aspect of it right now that's making me feel this way.

Also I'm very heavily on the mindset that the simplistic 3D scenery, models and special effects are because of a limited schedule & budget and not because of a stylistic choice.
I just have to play it even more sometime when I'm bored though, because your last paragraph is absolutely true. (and I too have experiences of that happening)

[Squire Grooktook]

but the scoring in eschatos just feels very hollow to me somehow, despite it requiring you a aggressive playstyle. I can't get my finger on a single aspect of it right now that's making me feel this way.

Well, it might just not be for you, which is totally okay. Subjective taste and everything. On the other hand, if you can't pinpoint it, maybe it is a case of not having "clicked" or fully understood it yet. Like I said, the game's scoring becomes a lot more involved later on.

Personally I also find the scoring in Eschatos to be one of the most compulsive "MUST...SCORE..." systems. Mainly because in a shooting game, shooting everything feels like a natural urge, and letting enemies slip off the screen always feels disappointing.

Also I'm very heavily on the mindset that the simplistic 3D scenery, models and special effects are because of a limited schedule & budget and not because of a stylistic choice.

It probably was, but I think Eschatos is the case of making the most with limited aesthetic options. Just as the games of yore did.

[Special World]

Keep on trucking Cagar—It's great that so many people on these boards are dedicated to not only playing shooting games, but contributing their own works to the genre so I have something to play in the future I myself don't have the kind of dedication to tackle any sort of long-term projects, which is probably also why my 1CC list is so dismally low. Definitely a big fan of destructible boss parts, I think that's one of the few shooting game concepts that is just universally appealing. Satisfying to shoot, satisfying to score.

I think the joy of Eschatos is primarily in the shooting itself—so if you're not feeling that joy, then you probably wouldn't enjoy the scoring either. For me, the scoring in Eschatos is basically like "this is what you do," a sketch of a scoring system that serves to elevate the action without really altering it in any way. So you don't have as much of these weird, almost arbitrary habits and movements that come with more involved/contrived scoring systems. But it still serves as a reminder of progress, and elevates the game above "if you survive, you score," which is the case with a lot of older shooters that are only fun for survival.

I'm sure that Eschatos had a comparatively tame budget, but I also am frequently in awe of how feature-rich it is. It comes with two free games, and the main game has a ton of unlockables and options that allow players to tinker with it how they want. I've turned off the enemy altitude meter, for example, because I think it just looks junky in-game. To me, Eschatos is incredibly robust, and all its options and extra features highlight that Qute had their priorities straight. And I think it looks pretty good anyhow.

Give it a couple credits when you're able, and make sure to play through the whole thing if you haven't already. Try out the different modes, etc. And if you still don't like it, no big.

[TransatlanticFoe]

I've had this for a while but only ever played it once before I got distracted by other 360 games (shmup wise, chiefly Triangle Service) and forgot about it. This thread inspired me to give it a go again.

There are a couple of memoriser moments which, like those in Thunder Force III, feel a bit out of place and are rage-inducing first time out. I don't mind being point-blanked because I get cocky but I do object to being rammed by a giant ship or dumped from a swish camera angle into an area with collidable not-background objects. I made it to stage 26 (easy mode) and lost all my remaining lives as the boss smashed into me a few times.

Those moments aside (let's face it, like TFIII they're trivial once you get through the initial anger and remember they're there for next time) it was good fun. The sheer number of times you think a suicide wave is going to break through your shots really gets the blood pumping!

Graphically it makes Trizeal look like a PS4 title and it does come across as cheap as a result. Can't say I noticed much in the heat of battle though. Is it just me or does the music sound very Triggerheart Exelica in a few places?

Doubt it'll be one of my favourites but I now feel suitably bad for neglecting it for so long.

[Squire Grooktook]

Another thing that I don't think has been mentioned about this game, but is very important, is the pace.

The way the game breaks up each stage into little "waves" that can be killed faster to advance the game faster, and the way waves become longer and more numerous as the game progresses, is great. It kind of reminds me of the "boss game" style stuff Treasure used to do, except with normal combat instead of boss combat, but it does the same thing for pace, keeping things accelerating and varied.

[RHE]

It's a real shame that this game is not region free and was never localized by a western publisher.

Is there a "region free disc" for 360 like DC-X for Dreamcast?

[Squire Grooktook]

It's a real shame that this game is not region free and was never localized by a western publisher.

It's been region free from the beginning.

[RHE]

It's a real shame that this game is not region free and was never localized by a western publisher.

It's been region free from the beginning.

Wow thats good news to me! Play-Asia didn't list it to be region free.

I'll buy it now.

Edit: Ahhh my mistake http://www.play-asia.com/eschatos-wonde ... /13/704ojt and http://www.play-asia.com/eschatos/13/7044aa

makes sense now

[Special World]

Yeah, I think that was a holdover from when we didn't know if it was region free or not. I think I remember checking on it.