US Distributor - http://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=207
Worldwide - http://etim.net.au/shop/shop.php?crn=210
If you're hoping to install this in a 6 switch console, you'll have to wait until August 12th to order!
![Crying or Very sad :cry:](./images/smilies/icon_cry.gif)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07So_lJQyqwdarcagn wrote:The downside is that using Genesis cables means components (resistors/capacitors) will need to be on the RGB output cables so they'll pretty much have to be SCART output only for RGB out, but that's not a problem given that I use SCART-to-BNC and SCART-to-XRGB cables for my two gaming setups (a BVM and an XRGB-mini). And the 2600RGB will need to be modified appropriately.
Thoughts?
Problem with that is that I can only use that off-the-shelf cable to connect an XRGB-mini, if I want to use my BVM (and I will likely want to use both at different times) then I need a separate cable. And if I want to use composite sync for sync then I lose the ability to use composite video for situations in which I take the console elsewhere (as unlikely as that may be).RGB32E wrote:Tim hit the nail on the head with his explanation you linked. If you want to connect to a XRGB-mini, you can use a real off the shelf cable, or one of the SCART cables he sells on his site.
I'm aware of what the pinout is for both the MD2/SG2 you linked and the MD1/SG1 that I am talking about using. Like I said, "the 2600RGB will need to be modified appropriately" i.e. I can do the necessary component removal (I did with the NESRGB already, after all).RGB32E wrote:It's one thing to double up a SHVC-010 style cable with the NESRGB without component removal, it's another thing to use a Genesis cable. I have to SMH every time I see someone's brilliant idea to use the MD2/SG2 pin out.
What's unacceptable for Tim to use for a general purpose kit might be completely acceptable for me in my personal setup, though. I'm in no way saying that I think Tim should have used the Genesis cable as the basis for his kit.RGB32E wrote:To repeat what has already been stated, the Neo Geo AES pin out is a good alternative to the 8MDIN as no "unacceptable" components are involved.
The thought had crossed my mind for a short moment but it's impossible to find female 10-pin mini-DIN connectors. I haven't tried looking for any myself but I've known people who've tried to no avail. I do have some dead Saturns that I could harvest one from, though, but I think I'd feel awful doing that when there are other alternatives and nothing particularly special about that connector.RGB32E wrote:Heck, even a 10 pin mini din (Sega Saturn) would be great - enough pins for RGBS, S-Video, Composite, and two audio, with no unacceptable parts!
Sure, trust me, I get that, I've been doing this long enough and own a wide array of different RGB cables for different RGB-capable consoles. I practically know the SCART pinout variations for all of the major consoles by heart at this point.RGBE32 wrote:To use the term "off the shelf" is a misnomer given the consoles involved and the many cable variations and configurations. Given that NTSC and PAL consoles can have different external components added to the respective cables, it only complicates using what is referred to as "off the shelf" even further, not to mention the wide range of build quality. Official game console RGB cables that do not have extra components end up being relatively pricy when sold on eBay, so that doesn't help that goal.
I don't disagree with you there, the Neo Geo AES pinout is indeed a good alternative, and IMO is the connector Tim should have based his kits on (I can't understand from his page why he didn't do that in the end anyway), but my personal reason against it is that I don't own one and don't ever plan on owning one, I want to consider all my options here before I decide to use a cable type that I have no re-use for. That and Genesis cables are much, much more common around here than Neo Geo AES cables. I can get in my car right now and go to the store and buy a Genesis composite cable, for example, but I can't say the same for the Neo Geo AES. Hell, I've never actually known a single person locally who's owned a Neo Geo AES, nor have I ever seen one in a store, or heck, nor have I actually ever seen the console in real life at all.RGB32E wrote:Hence, if you want a 8 pin DIN connection to mimic a game console use the Neo Geo AES - it's what I'm planning to do! Inline 8 DIN female connectors are easy to obtain, and will allow for a "wire" out solution like the original consoles had for RF.
Funny you say that because the AES can use a model 1 Genesis/SMS composite cable.darcagn wrote:I can get in my car right now and go to the store and buy a Genesis composite cable, for example, but I can't say the same for the Neo Geo AES.
Ha, I didn't even think of that, if it's not fully pinned.ApolloBoy wrote:Funny you say that because the AES can use a model 1 Genesis/SMS composite cable.darcagn wrote:I can get in my car right now and go to the store and buy a Genesis composite cable, for example, but I can't say the same for the Neo Geo AES.
There's nothing wrong with having a separate cable! Complicating an install to conform to a proprietary cable is just... inane.darcagn wrote:Problem with that is that I can only use that off-the-shelf cable to connect an XRGB-mini, if I want to use my BVM (and I will likely want to use both at different times) then I need a separate cable. And if I want to use composite sync for sync then I lose the ability to use composite video for situations in which I take the console elsewhere (as unlikely as that may be).RGB32E wrote:Tim hit the nail on the head with his explanation you linked. If you want to connect to a XRGB-mini, you can use a real off the shelf cable, or one of the SCART cables he sells on his site.
It's just a bad practice to remove those parts. They're supposed to be in the circuit to begin with. Trying to mimic the "cost cutting" decision Sega made with the Genesis and Master System is just backwards!darcagn wrote:I'm aware of what the pinout is for both the MD2/SG2 you linked and the MD1/SG1 that I am talking about using. Like I said, "the 2600RGB will need to be modified appropriately" i.e. I can do the necessary component removal (I did with the NESRGB already, after all).RGB32E wrote:It's one thing to double up a SHVC-010 style cable with the NESRGB without component removal, it's another thing to use a Genesis cable. I have to SMH every time I see someone's brilliant idea to use the MD2/SG2 pin out.
Reminder: Tim sells appropriate cables. I know you are adverse to not using the same cable for every console if at all possible. Perhaps you should go with this, and mount that on all your consoles.darcagn wrote:What's unacceptable for Tim to use for a general purpose kit might be completely acceptable for me in my personal setup, though. I'm in no way saying that I think Tim should have used the Genesis cable as the basis for his kit.RGB32E wrote:To repeat what has already been stated, the Neo Geo AES pin out is a good alternative to the 8MDIN as no "unacceptable" components are involved.
You would have found them if you'd actually searched for them.darcagn wrote:The thought had crossed my mind for a short moment but it's impossible to find female 10-pin mini-DIN connectors. I haven't tried looking for any myself but I've known people who've tried to no avail. I do have some dead Saturns that I could harvest one from, though, but I think I'd feel awful doing that when there are other alternatives and nothing particularly special about that connector.RGB32E wrote:Heck, even a 10 pin mini din (Sega Saturn) would be great - enough pins for RGBS, S-Video, Composite, and two audio, with no unacceptable parts!
If that is the case, I'm even more shocked at your irreverent obsession with the Sega 9MDIN pin out!darcagn wrote:Sure, trust me, I get that, I've been doing this long enough and own a wide array of different RGB cables for different RGB-capable consoles. I practically know the SCART pinout variations for all of the major consoles by heart at this point.RGBE32 wrote:To use the term "off the shelf" is a misnomer given the consoles involved and the many cable variations and configurations. Given that NTSC and PAL consoles can have different external components added to the respective cables, it only complicates using what is referred to as "off the shelf" even further, not to mention the wide range of build quality. Official game console RGB cables that do not have extra components end up being relatively pricy when sold on eBay, so that doesn't help that goal.
Actually, when it comes to the 2600RGB, it might not be such a good idea to use the AES pin out if you're connecting kit audio to it, as it appears to require dual mono for a safety feature.darcagn wrote:I don't disagree with you there, the Neo Geo AES pinout is indeed a good alternative, and IMO is the connector Tim should have based his kits on (I can't understand from his page why he didn't do that in the end anyway), but my personal reason against it is that I don't own one and don't ever plan on owning one, I want to consider all my options here before I decide to use a cable type that I have no re-use for. That and Genesis cables are much, much more common around here than Neo Geo AES cables. I can get in my car right now and go to the store and buy a Genesis composite cable, for example, but I can't say the same for the Neo Geo AES. Hell, I've never actually known a single person locally who's owned a Neo Geo AES, nor have I ever seen one in a store, or heck, nor have I actually ever seen the console in real life at all.RGB32E wrote:Hence, if you want a 8 pin DIN connection to mimic a game console use the Neo Geo AES - it's what I'm planning to do! Inline 8 DIN female connectors are easy to obtain, and will allow for a "wire" out solution like the original consoles had for RF.
What makes Sega's cable any more or less "proprietary" than the 2600RGB/NESRGB/XRGB pinout? (Or the Neo Geo AES's, for that matter) Both cables are made out of inexpensive standard parts; however, one was used by a legendary major gaming company that shipped millions of consoles worldwide whereas the other was used by an obscure Japanese video processing hardware designer and an Australian mod kit designer.RGB32E wrote:There's nothing wrong with having a separate cable! Complicating an install to conform to a proprietary cable is just... inane.
I do know how much it costs and what it takes to build these cables. I've done 2 NESRGBs for myself and the first one I did I actually made the Tim cable design.RGB32E wrote:It's just a bad practice to remove those parts. They're supposed to be in the circuit to begin with. Trying to mimic the "cost cutting" decision Sega made with the Genesis and Master System is just backwards!The parts to make many different cables are out there if you actually look for them and cost less than you make them out to be. Ultimately, by going with a Sega conforming pin out, you're perpetuating bad decisions (in retrospect) of the past.
I'd rather stick with the native/unmodded look where possible on my consoles, and then when the native look cannot accommodate what I want to do, then I go for re-using existing stuff (hence the idea to use the Genesis pinout).darcagn wrote:I know you are adverse to not using the same cable for every console if at all possible. Perhaps you should go with this, and mount that on all your consoles.Quality 8MDIN plugs that accommodate relatively thick cabling for that type of connector do exist...
link?RGB32E wrote:You would have found them if you'd actually searched for them.No need to harvest a PCB mount from a Sega Saturn either. Sounds like you need to take a look for yourself!
The Genesis model 1 uses a 8-pin DIN, not a 9-pin mini-DIN. But either way, I have no "obsession" with the Sega output. I'm still not yet completely sure what path I'm going to take for this install, but so far you haven't said much to convince me against it.RGBE32 wrote:If that is the case, I'm even more shocked at your irreverent obsession with the Sega 9MDIN pin out!![]()
I saw that, and if I'm reading that correctly, it's only applicable if you're using the included 3.5mm TRS connector for audio. Remember, the Atari 2600 uses a 3.5mm TS connector for its power supply, so when this kit is installed in its default configuration it would be really easy to accidentally plug the power into the audio jack and fry the 2600RGB, so Tim is wisely including a protection feature to prevent that very realistic scenario. It appears that protection feature doesn't kick in if the ring and sleeve contacts are wired together. But if I'm not using that connector in the first place then I won't need the protection feature. That is, if I am indeed reading that correctly; hopefully Tim can perhaps chime in and confirm that for any of us who are interested in deviating from the default configuration.RGB32E wrote:Actually, when it comes to the 2600RGB, it might not be such a good idea to use the AES pin out if you're connecting kit audio to it, as it appears to require dual mono for a safety feature.
http://etim.net.au/2600rgb/2600rgb_wiring.pdfSpoiler
Not quite right, our PAL friends can go ahead and order it.RGB32E wrote:The 2600RGB is now listed on Tim's online shop:
If you're hoping to install this in a 6 switch console, you'll have to wait until August 12th to order!
I think the 6-switch PAL adapter board was put up after RGB32E posted.ckong wrote:Not quite right, our PAL friends can go ahead and order it.RGB32E wrote:The 2600RGB is now listed on Tim's online shop:
If you're hoping to install this in a 6 switch console, you'll have to wait until August 12th to order!
*facepalm*darcagn wrote:What makes Sega's cable any more or less "proprietary" than the 2600RGB/NESRGB/XRGB pinout? (Or the Neo Geo AES's, for that matter) Both cables are made out of inexpensive standard parts; however, one was used by a legendary major gaming company that shipped millions of consoles worldwide whereas the other was used by an obscure Japanese video processing hardware designer and an Australian mod kit designer.And neither are industry standards.
Yes, there are reasons why you should not remove those parts. Tim has explained this already in this forum. Go fetch if you're curious.darcagn wrote:Is there an actual downside, electrically speaking, or quality-wise, caused by Sega's decision to put the resistors in the SCART connector? If it's functionally the same, then I don't see it as a big deal and at most a minor inconvenience during the installation process.
Given the size of the 9MDIN connector, adding resistors of any size inside that connector is a challenge, and could decrease reliability of the connection.viletim wrote:It's all very well to say that you have a thick shield ground conductor, but what does it actually measure? The only important property of the ground connection is the resistance. It should be less than 0.3 ohms from one connector to another. You can measure it with a multimeter if you null out the test lead resistance. The ground is shared by the audio and video and any voltage drop across the ground wire caused by the (relatively high current) video signals will be picked up by the audio amplifier.
There's also the capacitance between the wires. The noise from this can be significantly reduced by placing the 75 ohm resistors in series with the R, G, B lines right where the video comes out of the console, at the mini din connector end. The capacitors can go into the SCART end. This way the video will be at 0.7 Vpp throughout the length of the cable, instead of 1.4 Vpp until right at the SCART end.
Exactly this... lol.darcagn wrote:I'd rather stick with the native/unmodded look where possible on my consoles, and then when the native look cannot accommodate what I want to do, then I go for re-using existing stuff (hence the idea to use the Genesis pinout).
And besides (and I know I'm reaching here) but the Atari 2600, Master System, and Genesis all share the same controller pinout. Why not all share A/V pinout too?![]()
This looks promising...darcagn wrote:The thought had crossed my mind for a short moment but it's impossible to find female 10-pin mini-DIN connectors. I haven't tried looking for any myself
...
link?
I don't believe you!darcagn wrote:I have no "obsession" with the Sega output. I'm still not yet completely sure what path I'm going to take for this install, but so far you haven't said much to convince me against it.
Makes sense given the type of power connector used on the Atari 2600.darcagn wrote:I saw that, and if I'm reading that correctly, it's only applicable if you're using the included 3.5mm TRS connector for audio.
Thank you. Finally real reasons not to use the Sega Genesis configuration.RGB32E wrote:*facepalm*
Given that the RGB encoders are supposed to have the resistors and capacitors connected within close proximity of it's outputs, your comparison is just absurd! Go read a datasheet! Sega HW engineers redeemed themselves with the Saturn - from a RGB standpoint at least.
Yes, there are reasons why you should not remove those parts. Tim has explained this already in this forum. Go fetch if you're curious.
Genesis RGB cables are notorious for audio buzzing due in part to missing components you like to remove:Given the size of the 9MDIN connector, adding resistors of any size inside that connector is a challenge, and could decrease reliability of the connection.viletim wrote:It's all very well to say that you have a thick shield ground conductor, but what does it actually measure? The only important property of the ground connection is the resistance. It should be less than 0.3 ohms from one connector to another. You can measure it with a multimeter if you null out the test lead resistance. The ground is shared by the audio and video and any voltage drop across the ground wire caused by the (relatively high current) video signals will be picked up by the audio amplifier.
There's also the capacitance between the wires. The noise from this can be significantly reduced by placing the 75 ohm resistors in series with the R, G, B lines right where the video comes out of the console, at the mini din connector end. The capacitors can go into the SCART end. This way the video will be at 0.7 Vpp throughout the length of the cable, instead of 1.4 Vpp until right at the SCART end.
It does look promising but I don't believe the pin spacing on those Pan Pacific connectors are the same as the ones on the Saturn. I could be wrong though. You can quote me saying I haven't searched for myself and provide an image and not a link to be oddly withholding all you want, but the reason I'm asking is not because I can't use Google or other search engines, but because I know other people have had issues getting this connector in the past, and Tim Worthington's page specifically says it's extremely rare and difficult to find the proper connector. Your original post implied you knew something he and I don't, so it seemed appropriate to request a link from you, no? Unfortunately the MD-10S-P is mysteriously absent from the Pan Pacific website so I'm guessing it isn't produced anymore and I can't find a datasheet.RGB32E wrote:This looks promising...darcagn wrote:The thought had crossed my mind for a short moment but it's impossible to find female 10-pin mini-DIN connectors. I haven't tried looking for any myself
...
link?Spoiler
People using the Sega 8DIN and 9MDIN connections for projects is a pet peeve of mine and this is not the first time I've expressed this. Please understand.darcagn wrote:I don't know if I've ever done anything on here to piss you off, but if I have, then I sincerely apologize.
Absolutely! I wouldn't have made so many postings about my experiences if that were not the case.darcagn wrote:We're all here to help one another and discuss how to get the best out of our favorite consoles
darcagn wrote:so let's try to cut down on the snark, eh?
That was something that I was happy to see when I modded my Atari 2600 for S-Video several years back. SO much space on a flat panel's surfacedarcagn wrote:In addition, the 2600 has that space on the back that's untextured where mounting ports would look fairly stock-ish anyway.
Well...you *could* modulate your RF signal externally after output from the console and run the video to your TV from the modulator and the audio directly from the console's output.darcagn wrote:I can't put it through my normal video chain, and I have to set my TV up to play audio instead of feeding everything through my receiver.
I believe the 2600RGB doesn't rid of RF output completely. In fact in Tim's instructions for the 4 switch 2600 it says to keep original RF output be sure to solder back on the orange inductor variable coil. You could always hook up using composite video so the image isn't as pixel perfect as RGB but still a little fuzzy like RF.BuckoA51 wrote:Weren't an awful lot of 2600 games designed around the inherent fuzziness of the RF signal though? I mean, when the Stella emulator introduced filters to put that all back in again, it was widely celebrated, now we're hacking RGB onto the original console and taking that out...
Honestly I prefer the RF version, even with all that noise![]()
(likely the first and last time I ever say that, but the 2600 is a special case)
Smashbro29 wrote:Why not make one for one of the later Ataris that are fully backwards compatible?
viletim wrote:I do plan on making a 7800 version eventually. I think it is possible... I'm not about to attempt it right away. First I need some time to forget how much of a bastard these kind of mods are to develop.Now I know the 7800 was talked about on the AtariAge fourms, and I'm willing to bet it would be a bit more challenging being it has two separate video processors. Maybe Tim could develop a board that does the same thing as the 2600 board with the TIA but also adds the 7800 MARIA processor on board as well and when in 7800 mode it keeps the TIA active for only sound and uses the MARIA for graphics. Sounds like it can be done, maybe in the next couple of years, one can dream
The that filter in the screen shot doesn't look like Atari RF video. It's more like RGB with Vaseline smeared over the screen. Characteristics of the Atari's RF are low colour saturation, colour distortion on leading and trailing edges, and noise in the audio. At least it's true for the PAL consoles I've used. Maybe the NTSC version looks different?BuckoA51 wrote:Weren't an awful lot of 2600 games designed around the inherent fuzziness of the RF signal though? I mean, when the Stella emulator introduced filters to put that all back in again, it was widely celebrated, now we're hacking RGB onto the original console and taking that out...
It doesn't prevent the RF from working, but there may be a bit more work required to install the board without reducing the quality of the RF output. First you will need to hold down the palette switch when switching the console on to disable the 2600RGB video outputs. The noise from the switching power supply might also get into the RF signal. If this is a problem the only solution is to put the linear 7805 back in place with a larger heat sink and switch to a larger power adapter (such as the one from the Mega Drive).zakruowrath wrote:I believe the 2600RGB doesn't rid of RF output completely. In fact in Tim's instructions for the 4 switch 2600 it says to keep original RF output be sure to solder back on the orange inductor variable coil. You could always hook up using composite video so the image isn't as pixel perfect as RGB but still a little fuzzy like RF.