And Treasure's new shmup is coming to... *drum roll*

[kidneythief]

xbox and the 360 are both based on Direct X, so compatibility can't be so hard...

[Nemo]

Sweet, nothing would make me happier than to see the failure of the ForemanGrillStation 3 so those arrogant A-holes at Sony get what they deserve for subjecting consumers to shoddy hardware and inane policies. Most developers never liked the PS2 to begin with, they just put up with it because it had the largest userbase, but that's irrelevant now that the next generation of consoles is coming.

Yeah, but the PS2 had better hw then the xb and so has the PS3 compared to the Xbb0x 360. So think b4 you write butthole.

Have you noticed how you write? Anyways, in terms of hardware both the GC and Xbox dominate the PS2. Not only is it inferior, but it's also harder to develop for. You got me.

If I do get a 360, it'll definately be an import 360. Because any shmups that come out here will come out in Japan, and Sonic and After Burner are the only American 360 releases I'm interested in at all-and I doubt there'll be any language issues with those two games!.

Why would you have decided this already, I'm just curious. I mean what games are only getting a JP-release that you know of that would make you want to pay more for an import console and not be able to understand anything in the games unless you can understand Japanese?

[ST Dragon]

What’s interesting is that with every next-gen console release, there are even less games that interest the average retro gamer. It is no accident that most modern games feel so boring & empty compared to the old school stuff.

There were more than 800 games for the NES/SNES/Genesis/PCE, which were more than worth getting the consoles for them.
There were about 400 must have games for the Saturn/PSX & about 60-80 games for the PS-2/X-BOX/GC.
I bet it will be less than 20 for the 360/PS-3/revolution for me at least.
There will a time where new consoles will simply not apply to the retrogaming community.

Anyone else share the same thoughts as well?

[kidneythief]

I think it will go in cycles. People will long for simple games, then they will long for complex games with plots, and the cycle will continue.

[Zigfried the Trizealot]

This is great news. I was on the fence, but I'll be getting an Xbox 360 now!

//Zig

[CMoon]

I can't believe we're having console wars before the freakin' consoles come out! Yay!

At this point, I'm not sold on any of the consoles. Ooooh, PS3 offers more of the same with what looks like a horrible controller, the revolution could be absolutely anything and is impossible to judge, while the xbox 360 seems to be TRYING to do something different. I probably won't buy any of these consoles until I see a substantial set of games I really want to play on them--and I'm not going to pretend that the 360 has to suck just because I found the first xbox was worthless. Who really knows? Maybe all three consoles will suck!

[Nemo]

If this is a sequel, I hope it turns out to be Sin & Punishment 2 (hey, the article said shooter not shmup), I know Treasure hinted in the past that they would consider doing another S&P.

[U K Narayan]

If this is a sequel, I hope it turns out to be Sin & Punishment 2 (hey, the article said shooter not shmup), I know Treasure hinted in the past that they would consider doing another S&P.

"shmup" Isn't an official term, it's merely slang.

[Specineff]

stuff

Yes, but what does that have to do with the looks or the controller? Kutaragi is an idiot, but that doesn't really have any relevance to what was asked.

Because it's all hype. Because at the end the hardware doesn't deliver. Jeez, it's not like my post was so cryptic.

[sethsez]

stuff

Yes, but what does that have to do with the looks or the controller? Kutaragi is an idiot, but that doesn't really have any relevance to what was asked.

Because it's all hype. Because at the end the hardware doesn't deliver. Jeez, it's not like my post was so cryptic.

And again, "the machine looks like a Foreman grill" has zilch to do with Kutaragi, or hype. I'm aware Sony hypes their machines to hell and back and never live up to it, but I don't see what relevance that has to the controller design.

What’s interesting is that with every next-gen console release, there are even less games that interest the average retro gamer. It is no accident that most modern games feel so boring & empty compared to the old school stuff.

I think you'll find many, many people who disagree that modern games feel boring and empty compared to old ones, though probably not here. However, beyond that, duh. Of course the heyday of retro gaming is in the past. That's pretty much the definition of "retro."

[Specineff]

Aw crud. Hello? Isn't the PS2 known as San Alias City? Laser failure? Isn't the Cube capable of even better looking graphics?

What's the point of having a powerful piece of hardware (if it lives up to the hype) when the controller cripples your input? Granted, I haven't held it, but I doubt they spent half the time they did when creating the original PS pad, which is great, minus the D-Pad. About 30 prototypes, IIRC, for the first pad.

That's what I meant when I say the hardware doesn't deliver. Because the controller is, of course, hardware too.

[ST Dragon]

Yes, but what does that have to do with the looks or the controller? Kutaragi is an idiot, but that doesn't really have any relevance to what was asked.

Because it's all hype. Because at the end the hardware doesn't deliver. Jeez, it's not like my post was so cryptic.

And again, "the machine looks like a Foreman grill" has zilch to do with Kutaragi, or hype. I'm aware Sony hypes their machines to hell and back and never live up to it, but I don't see what relevance that has to the controller design.

What’s interesting is that with every next-gen console release, there are even less games that interest the average retro gamer. It is no accident that most modern games feel so boring & empty compared to the old school stuff.

I think you'll find many, many people who disagree that modern games feel boring and empty compared to old ones, though probably not here. However, beyond that, duh. Of course the heyday of retro gaming is in the past. That's pretty much the definition of "retro."

Even some modern games that try to imitate the "old-school retro" feel, fail imo.
Some examples:

Contra - Shattered Soldier - PS-2
Focuses mainly on heavy level memorization rather than fun paced game play.
How good is NEO Contra on the PS-2 compared to Contra (NES/SNES/Genesis) by the way?

As for newer ones, I tried Batman Begins (PS-2) yesterday at a shop.
Graphics were incredible for PS-2 standards, probably the best 3rd Person graphics you'll see on the PS-2. (Haven't played God of War & CastleVania LOI though) But the game play was so boring & linear.

Rygar on the PS-2 also fails to deliver the old school feel of the 1986 arcade classic imo.

Same for Zone of The Enders 2. (Zone 1 had better gameplay imo, as it was not linear like Zone 2)

[ST Dragon]

Aw crud. Hello? Isn't the PS2 known as San Alias City? Laser failure? Isn't the Cube capable of even better looking graphics?

What's the point of having a powerful piece of hardware (if it lives up to the hype) when the controller cripples your input? Granted, I haven't held it, but I doubt they spent half the time they did when creating the original PS pad, which is great, minus the D-Pad. About 30 prototypes, IIRC, for the first pad.

That's what I meant when I say the hardware doesn't deliver. Because the controller is, of course, hardware too.

After having a second look on the PS-3 joypad, it looks incredibly similar to the Ikaruga ships!
Maybe the guys at the SONY tech department are Treasure/Ikaruga Fans?



I think it looks awesome.

The original PS-1/2 joypad was my least favorite pad ever, mainly due to the "stiff & hard" D-PAD.
I hated the fact that the D-Pad had 4 buttons instead of a standard "Cross" like the Saturn, Genesis, SNES, NES, etc...

Judging by the pics of the PS-3 pad, it looks as if it's using the same four buttons D-Pad…
Lets I hope it's not as "Stiff' as the older ones.

And speaking of Joypads...
The XBOX 360 Pad doesn't look any better to me. Infact it looks like the same old bulky X-BOX pad.



The Revolution Pad looks more promising than the 360 pad imo.
The idea of turning the Pad on its sides to play the old NES/SNES games is great!

[Rob]

I think it looks awesome.

Yeah, and also "wide mode."

That controller design is just modern gaming in a nutshell. It's the exact same thing as before, only worse.

[sethsez]

Even some modern games that try to imitate the "old-school retro" feel, fail imo.
Some examples:

Contra - Shattered Soldier - PS-2
Focuses mainly on heavy level memorization rather than fun paced game play.
How good is NEO Contra on the PS-2 compared to Contra (NES/SNES/Genesis) by the way?

As for newer ones, I tried Batman Begins (PS-2) yesterday at a shop.
Graphics were incredible for PS-2 standards, probably the best 3rd Person graphics you'll see on the PS-2. (Haven't played God of War & CastleVania LOI though) But the game play was so boring & linear.

Rygar on the PS-2 also fails to deliver the old school feel of the 1986 arcade classic imo.

Same for Zone of The Enders 2. (Zone 1 had better gameplay imo, as it was not linear like Zone 2)

Yes, gaming sucks for retro fans these days. But again, that's pretty much the definition of retro. It's something that has passed on, something that was popular once but not any more. Rygar wasn't intended to feel like the 1986 game, it was intended to feel like a modern game. This is not a bad thing, and it's not a good thing, it's just a different thing. If it doesn't suit your tastes, that's too bad, but you can't expect a constantly changing medium to stop when it reaches a point you enjoy. Time marches on, things change, and sometimes fans get left behind. Happens with music, happens with movies, happens with games. To put it another way, it might suck to be a fan of the Eagles these days, but does that mean music is objectively worse? Enjoy the stuff that still caters to your taste, and either try to develop a taste for newer games, or stick with the older ones. But companies can't devote the majority of their energy, time and money to a group that is, by definition, niche.

And of course Batman Begins sucks. Did you expect anything good from a cheapie licensed cash in? These have always been terrible.

[Ganelon]

Even some modern games that try to imitate the "old-school retro" feel, fail imo.
Some examples:

Contra - Shattered Soldier - PS-2
Focuses mainly on heavy level memorization rather than fun paced game play.
How good is NEO Contra on the PS-2 compared to Contra (NES/SNES/Genesis) by the way?

Come again? Contra has always been about heavy stage memorization to know where to stand, what to avoid, boss patterns, etc. Pretty much all sidescrollers focus on memorization.

Neo Contra doesn't really compare to the other Contras in any way. Think of the overhead levels in Contra III nearly all game long with bosses that feature almost shooter-like attack patterns with you strafing and shooting.

[ST Dragon]

I wouldn't say most sidescrollers focus on level memorization like Shattered soldier does.

The NES/SNES & Genesis Contras weren't that heavy on level memorisation as Contra Shattered soldier imo.

[Ganelon]

Well, maybe not that heavy. But those games weren't that difficult either. On the other hand, Hard Corps, a complete boss-fest, required a large amount of memorization to remember what each boss did. A great example is Magician Lord. If you're just randomly playing around, the game seems like an unbeatable nightmare. Once you bother to memorize which tiles you should be stepping on in boss fights, which powerups to take and which to leave, and how to proceed through the mazes, the game becomes quite straightforward.

IMO, it's just like an old-school shooter like Image Fight. You're guaranteed to die your first time since you don't know where you need to move to stay alive and shoot down enemies. Once you remember, you get used to it.

[dave4shmups]

What’s interesting is that with every next-gen console release, there are even less games that interest the average retro gamer. It is no accident that most modern games feel so boring & empty compared to the old school stuff.

There were more than 800 games for the NES/SNES/Genesis/PCE, which were more than worth getting the consoles for them.
There were about 400 must have games for the Saturn/PSX & about 60-80 games for the PS-2/X-BOX/GC.
I bet it will be less than 20 for the 360/PS-3/revolution for me at least.
There will a time where new consoles will simply not apply to the retrogaming community.

Anyone else share the same thoughts as well?

I'd have to disagree, I mean, a Next-Gen console is almost worth owning just for all of the old-school gaming compilations that have come out. You've got Midway Arcade Treasures 1, 2 (and 3 is on it's way), Atari Anthology, Activision Anthology, Capcom Classics Collection, Tecmo Classic Arcade, Taito Arcade Classics, Sonic Mega Collection Plus, various Namco Museums, and Sonic Gems-and these are all US releases.

I consider myself an old-school "classic gamer", but that's all the more reason why I'm interested in next-gen hardware. And I think a lot of classic games have made great tansitions to 3D, Metroid Prime, Castlevania LOI, and PS2 Rygar are all great games, IMO. Even RPG's, both action and non-action, have made great strides into the the next generation. Heck, I just got Star Wars: KOTR yesterday, and I love it!

[ST Dragon]

edit...

[dave4shmups]

Aw crud. Hello? Isn't the PS2 known as San Alias City? Laser failure? Isn't the Cube capable of even better looking graphics?

What's the point of having a powerful piece of hardware (if it lives up to the hype) when the controller cripples your input? Granted, I haven't held it, but I doubt they spent half the time they did when creating the original PS pad, which is great, minus the D-Pad. About 30 prototypes, IIRC, for the first pad.

That's what I meant when I say the hardware doesn't deliver. Because the controller is, of course, hardware too.

After having a second look on the PS-3 joypad, it looks incredibly similar to the Ikaruga ships!
Maybe the guys at the SONY tech department are Treasure/Ikaruga Fans?



I think it looks awesome.

The original PS-1/2 joypad was my list favorite pad ever, mainly due to the "stiff & hard" D-PAD.
I hated the fact that the D-Pad had 4 buttons instead of a standard "Cross" like the Saturn, Genesis, SNES, NES, etc...

Judging by the pics of the PS-3 pad, it looks as if it's using the same four buttons D-Pad…
Lets I hope it's not as "Stiff' as the older ones.

And speaking of Joypads...
The XBOX 360 Pad doesn't look any better to me. Infact it looks like the same old bulky X-BOX pad.



The Revolution Pad looks more promising than the 360 pad imo.
The idea of turning the Pad on its sides to play the old NES/SNES games is great!

I think the 360 controller looks like the most comfortable of the 3. It's got a nice big D-Pad, just like the current XBOX controller. It pisses me off that, once again, Sony has gone with a tiny-ass, disconnected D-Pad. New Gradius? Big friggin' deal when this controller, like the Dual Shock 2, will suck big time for shmupping. Unless, of course, PS2 controllers, like the Saturn one and the Neo Geo Joystick, will be compatible with the PS3.

[theevilfunkster]

A friend of mine who had been play testing Xbox 360 games assures me that the pad feels very much like the Controller S only with a slightly worse dpad

[ST Dragon]

Yes, the D-Pad as I stated earlier has always been the "Achilles Heel" for Sony's consoles so far.
But at least they were comfortable on the palm unlike the bulky X-Box pad.. And no I don' have small hands.

The best D-Pad I've used so far, was the Genesis & Microsoft Sidewinder.
Very nice for shooters. The SNES D-Pad doesn't fall too far behind either.
The Saturn D-Pad was soft but very sensitive & the slightest hitch could trigger a wrong movement which could lead you to your Doom.

I don't know, but I think I'll like the Revolution pad.

But, after having a closer look of the Revolution Joypad pics, I can't seem to spot the "Y" & "X" buttons for the SNES?

How are you supposed to play Super Mario World or Axelay without those 2 buttons?

[ST Dragon]

A friend of mine who had been play testing Xbox 360 games assures me that the pad feels very much like the Controller S only with a slightly worse dpad

What's the "Controller S" by the way?

[theevilfunkster]

A friend of mine who had been play testing Xbox 360 games assures me that the pad feels very much like the Controller S only with a slightly worse dpad

What's the "Controller S"?

Official Xbox pad

[sethsez]

But, after having a closer look of the Revolution Joypad pics, I can't seem to spot the "Y" & "X" buttons for the SNES?

How are you supposed to play Super Mario World or Axelay without those 2 buttons?

I think every article on the Revolution controller needs to have the following:

THE REVOLUTION CONTROLLER CAN PLUG INTO OTHER SHELLS TO ADD BUTTONS OR FEATURES, AND THE SYSTEM ITSELF ALSO SUPPORTS GAMECUBE CONTROLLERS

on the top in big red letters.

[CMoon]

I think it looks awesome.

Forget everything else. The d-pad is tilted. That more or less kills the controller for me. Their pc sidewinders did the same trick and it made them more or less unusable. Thanks...

[Rob]

I think the problem with the Sidewinder's pad is that it's a thick "SLAMMER POG"-like disc with muddy movement (which is a great d-pad according to ST Dragon).

I really can't believe Sony chose a dressed up Sidewinder for a controller. And they kept the select button! Well as long as it's more round! I hope the games can live up to Sony's standard for improvement.

[ST Dragon]

Yeah, I got 2 Microsoft 10 Button Sidewinder PC Pads, which have been serving faithfully my 2D shmuping needs, since 1998!

I have 1'CC Carrier Air Wind in MAME, using those exact pads. Their D-Pad is a bit "circular" in comparison to the traditions "Cross' Shaped D-Pad of the SNES/NES/Genensis, etc... but they're very responsive, accurate & very durable. They can with stand hours of harassment, which is very frequent especially when playing some manic shooter like DoDonPachi, or others that require reparative tapping of the fire button like Carrier Air Wing.

[Zigfried the Trizealot]

The new Xbox pad is a Dreamcast pad in disguise.

//Zig