The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

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broken harbour
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by broken harbour »

DanMagoo wrote: It is a known fact that the Xbox exclusivity of Cave games prevented them reaching a wider audience.
I kind of feel this way too, Xbox360 was DOA in japan, never seemed to catch on, and since the Japanese market is what kept them in the black, it seems logical. The Xbox360 was also region-locked, something the PS3 wasn't, while about half of the ports to Xbox360 were region free, some of the best ones weren't. While Cave fanboys like myself will seek out a 2nd Xbox360, most gamers, even shmup fans won't. This probably limited their audience to an extent. I dunno, perhaps if they'd ported everything to the region-free PS3, which was also way ahead of the Xbox360 in Japan, Cave might still be around. Not rolling in dough, but not dead either.

IMHO - PC/Steam ports don't play into this much, most people will either pirate the game or download the rom's in MAME for free. The whole reason people use MAME is so they don't have to buy overpriced PCB's (Cave was also notorious for that). It's too bad, I want more Cave goodness in my life, but the choice of Xbox360 over PS3 seemed like a huge mis-judgement.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about running a game dev studio.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by trap15 »

I would absolutely agree that picking X360 as their platform was not the greatest decision in terms of available market. I get the feeling that it was almost exclusively due to a Microsoft money-hat, and then other developers followed their suit because that's what all the die-hard shooting fans bought. I fully believe developing for PS3 instead would have given them an advantage, due to a bigger JP market. A casual fan won't buy a console just for a small handful of games. I don't see PC/Steam giving that advantage, considering how very small the PC player-base is in JP.

Alas, it's in the past now. I can just hope that the next generation of shooters don't end up on xbone for the same reason, though I'm sure MS has already money-hatted the previous generation's developers. Either that, or they considered that anyone who bought an X360 for shooters will deal with buying an xbone for it.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by cave hermit »

Given the announcements from Moss, Qute, and Triangle service, it seems like Microsoft has already gotten to the surviving shmup devs.

Of course given that Sony is no longer using the Cell processor, I would think that it's going to be much easier for next-gen shmups to get ported over to the PS4. At least I would hope so since I already invested in a PS4.


Also Cave is dead. Its soul has fled to M2 (allegedly), yet the empty husk it left behind continues to shamble on awkwardly as a
perverse mockery of its former self. From a quick glance it might look like it's still alive, but without a soul it will just make a few attempts at ravenously consuming the money of its former loved ones before finally decomposing.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by broken harbour »

Cave is dead, long live M2, the new Cave.

20 years ago we said "Toaplan is dead, long live Cave, the new Toaplan"

Scrolling shooters will survive.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by gameoverDude »

I like the idea of Cave on Steam. $10-15 digital releases would be more impulse-buy friendly than $50-70. Done on PC, these would be easy to port over to XB1/PS4 in turn. And I'd buy them again, even if they were verbatim ports of the 360 releases with nothing added except English translation of what few bits of Japanese text are in them.

Akai Katana Shin on NESiCA could go the same way Crimzon Clover did - IINM it has some tweaks over the 360 version of AKS. As AKS 1.5, this would make decent DLC.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Pretas »

broken harbour wrote:I kind of feel this way too, Xbox360 was DOA in japan, never seemed to catch on
With over 1.5 million systems sold in Japan, this simply isn't true. The 360 wasn't a resounding success there, but it made a name for itself in the industry and proved to be worthy competition to Sony for at least several years. They couldn't simply ignore its influence, as they did with the original Xbox. MS Japan was very proactive in moneyhatting a wide range of exclusives from Japanese developers early on (far more than just STGs), and they managed to keep Idolmaster games away from Sony for an extended period of time.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Squire Grooktook »

trap15 wrote: I don't see PC/Steam giving that advantage, considering how very small the PC player-base is in JP.
This is something that really should change then. Doujin/small business and non-physical is the future of shmups, and Steam is probably (one of?) the biggest digitial distribution services at the moment. I think there is some serious hope there (for the genre in general, not Cave), but it's not helping if the already small fanbase is fractured like that.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Pretas »

Japanese PC gaming always has been and is likely to remain largely a niche, otaku-oriented pursuit. Since at least the early years of the PC-98 (when Gainax's Cybernetic Hi-School was banned for obscenity), pasocon gaming has always been somewhat stigmatized in Japan, due to its longtime association with hentai games and sensationalized news stories about MMORPG addiction.

A digital-only PC distribution platform run by an American company is therefore going to be even more marginalized in Japan.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by R79 »

I think (hope) at some point down the line, and it may be many years, we may see some sweet retro arcade packs appearing on PS4 (hard to see much obscure JP stuff going onto Xbox again). It would merely be a case of someone willing to licence the titles from them, if they are willing, and porting them superbly... yup.
See also Mitchell Corp, IREM, Raizing, SEGA Model 3 stuff and so on.

Cave as a developer, well, they probably ran out of steam seeing as during the 360 era they seemed to have a 2nd (very hectic) life, and if you factor in Batsugun, they had like a 20 year run anyhow.
The games won't die, that's for sure. We have the discs, the boards, the files, the dreaded 'dlc' etc., clips online of masters weaving through the incredible 2d grids. The interest will always be there. Only the really rich and/or super skilled on this forum will have become jaded with what's already out there at this stage.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

broken harbour wrote: The whole reason people use MAME is so they don't have to buy overpriced PCB's (Cave was also notorious for that).
No almost all arcade kits are expensive as fuck when they first come out. Cave was notorious for having them retain value in the used game market.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Pretas »

R79 wrote:I think (hope) at some point down the line, and it may be many years, we may see some sweet retro arcade packs appearing on PS4 (hard to see much obscure JP stuff going onto Xbox again).
Hamster is already dumping a large number of 1980s arcade games with easily obtainable licenses onto the PS4 under their Arcade Archives label; Rygar, City Connection and Terra Cresta among them. These are really quick and sleazy ports like their PS2 Oretachi Game Center releases (which were literally MAME on a disc), though.

Regarding future arcade compilations on console, it would be quite the event if SNK Playmore could finally get around to porting the Hyper Neo Geo 64 catalog...
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Casey120 »

Did shmup releases that made it to the PS3 like Ketsui sell so much better than the 360 version then ?

I believe that Sony wasn't interested in 2D games early in the gen, MS welcomed them and the fanbase just followed, there´s hardly interest in full price shmups outside that hardcore fanbase so I doubt games would have sold so much better on PS3 .

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:Cave was notorious for having them retain value in the used game market.
How exactly did CAVE have influence on the used market value of their older arcade boards ?
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Mero »

Casey120 wrote:, MS welcomed them and the fanbase just followed, there´s hardly interest in full price shmups outside that hardcore fanbase so I doubt games would have sold so much better on PS3 .
+1
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Jenseits »

Casey120 wrote:
Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:Cave was notorious for having them retain value in the used game market.
How exactly did CAVE have influence on the used market value of their older arcade boards ?
I guess because of sheer production quality. Design/style and mechanics...

Now waiting for the poor soul to jump in on how Cave is total shit and all of their offerings lack everything.
Last edited by Jenseits on Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by ptoing »

^ +1

Also, on the PS3 the ports would probably have been worse, given the Cell Processor being somewhat harder to program for. I also doubt there would be many people who would buy shmups and don't own a 360 anyway. Or that number would be pretty small.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:Cave was notorious for having them retain value in the used game market.
Casey120 wrote:How exactly did CAVE have influence on the used market value of their older arcade boards ?
I wasn't meaning to imply that they did, though they actually did in supply vs. demand - they did keep production numbers down and sometimes sent out ads that said shit like "limited to 150 copies". I just used "notorious" because it was used in what I was replying to. Anyway vs. other arcade games with similar production runs, the games kept their value basically because of how great they are.

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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Vetus »

chronicdog wrote:CAVE isnt some Touhou like art project, its a for profit company that sells videogame software internationally.
It is NOW that they release their games internationally. With console ports (PS2, Xbox360) they never bothered except from 1-2 XBLA releases. It was a huge mistake to make their games in psychical copies only exclusive in Japan. With digital, international releases and PC ports they would easily earn more money.
chronicdog wrote:CAVE has to do what they have to do to make money, thats the purpose of their existence. We should root for all their projects to make money, cause cash ins like this can fund real games.
Nope. They will just keep making smartphone games since they are easy money.
chronicdog wrote:Look at what SNK did with Metal Slug Defense. They took an aging if not vintage franchise and turned it into a decently fun tower defense game for mobile which sold 15M+ copies. Think about that.
No offense but nobody uses the term "vintage" for video games except from hipsters and ignorant people who think that this word is fancier than saying "retro". And for your information, Metal Slug series has aged very well.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Skykid »

He used the term vintage correctly. He wasn't referring to Retro as a bracket.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Vetus »

Still it's wrong.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Skykid »

Vetus wrote:Still it's wrong.

Thanks for the English language lesson.


Vetus wrote:psychical
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Astraea FGA Mk. I »

The Japanese XBOX division should be commended for what they did for CAVE. Sony rejected them.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Bee Cool »

broken harbour wrote:Cave is dead, long live M2, the new Cave.

20 years ago we said "Toaplan is dead, long live Cave, the new Toaplan"

Scrolling shooters will survive.
Could someone point me to the articles that talk about Cave passing the torch to M2? I've been out of the loop for a bit.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Muchi Muchi Spork »

There's no such article or thing. Some x-Cave programmers got hired into M2 and some people think that means they will make 2D shooters.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by Pretas »

Muchi Muchi Spork wrote:There's no such article or thing. Some x-Cave programmers got hired into M2 and some people think that means they will make 2D shooters.
And M2 has been working with Iuchi on a PS4 game called Ubusana that is assumed to be a spiritual successor to RSG/Ikaruga. Nothing else is known about it, though.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by DragonmasterDan »

Bee Cool wrote:
broken harbour wrote:Cave is dead, long live M2, the new Cave.

Could someone point me to the articles that talk about Cave passing the torch to M2? I've been out of the loop for a bit.
I'd also like to see as I wasn't able to find much in searching (but it's likely all covered in Japanese press sites perhaps).
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by AntiFritz »

If I was cave I would never have made SMT Imagine. Seriously that game being an mmo must have cost a lot of money to make and consumed a lot of resources. Instead I would have kept the company much smaller, and worked on making only shmups. If smaller shmup devs like Moss, Qute and GRev can stay in business I don't see why cave couldn't. Considering they were far the most popular.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by drunkninja24 »

It always weirded me out that Cave of all companies was chosen to develop SMT Imagine. Like, who at Atlus said "you know who we should get to develop an MMO? Those guys we published STGs for all those years ago!"?
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

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AntiFritz wrote:If I was cave I would never have made SMT Imagine. Seriously that game being an mmo must have cost a lot of money to make and consumed a lot of resources. Instead I would have kept the company much smaller, and worked on making only shmups. If smaller shmup devs like Moss, Qute and GRev can stay in business I don't see why cave couldn't. Considering they were far the most popular.
Atlus commissioned Cave to develop Imagine, and footed the bill for development. It is unlikely that Cave lost any substantial amount of money from it. It's not like with DDP and Esprade, where they made a game on their own but turned to Atlus because they needed a publisher.
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by ptoing »

drunkninja24 wrote:It always weirded me out that Cave of all companies was chosen to develop SMT Imagine. Like, who at Atlus said "you know who we should get to develop an MMO? Those guys we published STGs for all those years ago!"?
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Re: The Future of CAVE in the Videogame Industry

Post by S_Fang »

As a person who bought the Sony and Nintendo's consoles, I manage to miss those games. :(
Despite I used to not being interested back in the day, today it really stinks that most of the "treasury" is on X360 and iOS, therefore spending a lot of money and tribulations just for those games.


Regarding the MAME's emulation, it still has issue with some games and some of them are really NASTY, like the save/load state which compleately destroys the game. Myself and some other people are willing to pay for a decent version of those games with all those extra modes and stuff exclusive to consoles.
Speaking of which, making a bland PC port shouldn't be that expansive as well dangerous, considering that games like eXceed and Crimzon Clover received a warm and impactful receptions among PC players. Even Ikaruga was ported on Steam without big issues (although, it was notorius in the west beforehand).

I'm aware it will not be of any relevance, but on GOG there's a wishlist of games that people want. Among those, there are the DonPachi's series, Ketsui and Mushihimesama's series (requested by me). Again, I know GOG is not strong and influent enough to accomplish such requests (people are afraid of its DRM-Free nature), but we can at least try something effortless like voting; commenting; sharing on those pages and hoping for the least.

DonPachi:
http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games#search=Donpachi

Ketsui:
http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games/ketsu ... goku_tachi

Mushihimesama (Bug Princess):
http://www.gog.com/wishlist/games#search=mushihimesama
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