Invader Attack 2

[CoderGamesIsBack]

Think whatever you want, I'm telling you how it is. It's hilarious for me what you're saying.

[Cagar]

Just curious:
If it's so easy to make games, why haven't you developed a very succesful game yet?

[Shmuppet]

Take a look at this

That's a nice shmup, but really excessive in like, everything...
And I like it! Not a standard example of what EVERY shmup should be, but one should definitely take notes.

7 years IS a long time to complete such a great game though, but the developer was busy with real-life stuff(Japanese people are always busy) so it's kind of understandable.

EDIT: The game you provided link to is not demanding in terms of graphics. Those are simple sprites, pre-drawn, nothing really going on during runtime in terms of math and processing. It's a simple classic shmup with predictable patterns and waves, no AIs nothing.

Crimzon Clover practically pushes the limits of graphic processing, just from looking at it! But it STILL runs smooth!

And when I mean process, I mean drawing, updating, collision, animating, batching etc. Then multiply that by how many entities are on-screen! In my game, there's a minimum of 20 enemies and gets as much as 50-80 enemies on screen. Add bullets/particles and at any time, you have as much as 300-500 "things" present on-screen! Now do that 50-60 times A SECOND! Every second, over 3000 different process are already completed. And that's not including bullet and targeting physics.

That kind of gameplay takes A LOT of optimization to keep everything in check and not have the game completely choke on its own processing demands.

But your game Invader Attack 2 takes a simple scene and over-processes it. It's not even the fact that most people should be able to run it - but the fact that such a simple game like yours even requires such high specs, and it's not even complete yet.

[CoderGamesIsBack]

7 years IS a long time to complete such a great game though, but the developer was busy with real-life stuff(Japanese people are always busy) so it's kind of understandable.

Exactly what I was saying, it took him 2-3 months of development to make the game and another 2 weeks to make up achievements and integrate the Steam API.

Crimzon Clover practically pushes the limits of graphic processing, just from looking at it! But it STILL runs smooth!

There's zero graphic processing, it's just blitting sprites onto screen. As a matter of fact the game can probably work on video cards with no GPU (Graphics Processing Unit).

And when I mean process, I mean drawing, updating, collision, animating, batching etc. Then multiply that by how many entities are on-screen! In my game, there's a minimum of 20 enemies and gets as much as 50-80 enemies on screen. Add bullets/particles and at any time, you have as much as 300-500 "things" present on-screen! Now do that 50-60 times A SECOND! Every second, over 3000 different process are already completed. And that's not including bullet and targeting physics.

That's CPU not GPU. And it's not that intense, there are no 3d models, no textures, no skeletal animations, nothing, really. No AI, just predictable brainless waves. It's a classic shmup.

That kind of gameplay takes A LOT of optimization to keep everything in check and not have the game completely choke on its own processing demands.

Nope, old CPUs and graphic cards can handle 10000 sprites simultaneously on the screen, as each sprite is just a blit and collision detection is very simple, as it doesn't check everything against everything, but only groups of entities that are nearby and since it's 2D not 3D it's way less demanding.

But your game Invader Attack 2 takes a simple scene and over-processes it. It's not even the fact that most people should be able to run it - but the fact that such a simple game like yours even requires such high specs, and it's not even complete yet.

Movements in my game are realistic, collisions are realistic and much harder to process as there are more things to check and process. The development of my game would have taken 4 times less if I wanted it to make a classic shmup, but I didn't want that, I wanted to make an original game and I succeeded in that. I might make a classic shmup one day, same graphic style, but at this point I'm not interested.

[CoderGamesIsBack]

Just curious:
If it's so easy to make games, why haven't you developed a very succesful game yet?

Because I released my previous games unprotected or with light protection. My new custom made protection, I'm calling "a puzzler", will make sure no one will crack it, which I'm sure you guys already realized hence this entire discussion.

[Lord Satori]

Protection? How does that equate to a successful game? If you mean protection against piracy, then you're safe because people only pirate games that they actually want to buy.

[Cagar]

stuff

What are "predictable brainless waves" anyways?
You can't make a game like crimzon clover in 2-3 months, that's a fact that you can't deny. Yotsubane himself said that with everything that he learned, he could make a similiar quality game in probably 1-2 years. It took him 7 years because he started as a beginner.
Just out of curiosity, how old are you?
The claims that you're making are so out-of-this-world that I seriously suggest you to consult a doctor.

Also, I hope that you really don't mean that your previous games weren''t succesful just because they didn't have proper "protection"... well, let's just say that you're going to have a sad future with invader attack 2.

[CoderGamesIsBack]

My previous games were pirated. For each game sales stopped once the pirated version came out. So, yes.

If he was a beginner, then that explains. I'm very experienced developer. I developed information systems, desktop applications, web systems, web applications, did and do some database administration, but by vocation I'm an information system / software engineer, not a game developer. However, since I worked many years in gaming industry, for smaller companies and individuals, also freelanced a lot in my spare time, I gained a lot of experience, so I'm not a beginner and what you're saying now makes sense. He was a beginner so it took him that long. Yeah, that explains the time. But, I would make that game in 2-3 months, including the music. I'm 39.

[n0rtygames]

Honestly, you would not make a game to the quality of Crimzon Clover in 2-3 months.

But then they said elite couldn't be done...

Please don't come in here giving us the "I'm a big developer" act because there are plenty of established developers here and people who work for both large and small yet well known games companies and we simply choose to keep our work and shmup lives as two separate things. Egos at the door please...

You are not talking to a crowd of idiots here. You are among people who have scored large contracts with xbox live, moved between various clients and companies contracting their services, you are talking to artists who know exactly how long it takes to produce both 2D and 3D assets and you are ALSO talking to aspiring hobbyists who look up to many of the developers here for advice and ideas. Things do get fiery from time to time, but that's more to do with the competitive arcade aspect of what we do. What you're doing now is just shitting where you eat.

If you seriously believe you could put together a game to the quality of Crimzon Clover in a mere 3 months - then do it. Show us how it's done and we will all start throwing money at you as the next jesus of shmups.... but if that's all just talk (I strongly suspect that it is) then please just hit the reset button and start over before this turns horrible

[Shmuppet]

Access to the GPU for the purposes of saving CPU load isn't possible for all developers. It depends on the tool's capabilities and whether or not you really wanna deal with HLSL. For example, XNA GS allows GPU access while Blitzmax developers have to delegate ALL operations to the CPU. That's how it's been for a while, for many game developers.

VR Vicious Reality took 1.2 months to make. Then another month to bugfix/optimize/pipeline/protect assets properly. That's not bad considering how the game is, but I've been making shmups for a long time.
I made the graphics/gameplay, but not the music. If I had to do music myself though, that'd be another month and a half as I'd have to write it all out.

Crimzon Clover would probably take me a year at the quickest.
I'm getting better everyday at developing shmups. But I highly suggest you improve your games for the player instead CoderGames. They are gonna be the ones who buy your games.

[CoderGamesIsBack]

It's on! I'm first going to make a shorter prototype. Since I don't like the game you're showing I'm going to do something similar to Ikaruga, but not the same in terms of gameplay as then you'd say I copied Ikaruga original gameplay with two different types of bullets that destroy specific types of enemies. The game will be 3d, but classic shmup in every other way. Once I finish the prototype I'll show you the gameplay. I do not intend to spend 2-3 months working on the game if that's something you would not want to support financially, as classic shmups are not that popular and I'm not a big fan of those kind of game either. Invader Attack 2 is my masterpiece, the game I always wanted to play, but it never existed.

I started working on the prototype, a shooter again, but with robots, so I'm going to postpone that. It's 11:11 here. I need to get up early tomorrow. Will let you know when it's done.

[Lord Satori]

My previous games were pirated. For each game sales stopped once the pirated version came out. So, yes.

How exactly do you know this? Did you see sales drop and assume it came out, or do you actually run frequent searches for pirated version of your games?

It's on! I'm first going to make a shorter prototype. Since I don't like the game you're showing I'm going to do something similar to Ikaruga, but not the same in terms of gameplay as then you'd say I copied Ikaruga original gameplay with two different types of bullets that destroy specific types of enemies. The game will be 3d, but classic shmup in every other way. Once I finish the prototype I'll show you the gameplay. I do not intend to spend 2-3 months working on the game if that's something you would not want to support financially, as classic shmups are not that popular and I'm not a big fan of those kind of game either. Invader Attack 2 is my masterpiece, the game I always wanted to play, but it never existed.

I started working on the prototype, a shooter again, but with robots, so I'm going to postpone that. It's 11:11 here. I need to get up early tomorrow. Will let you know when it's done.

I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

[n0rtygames]

Well, good luck! Will be interesting to see what comes of it.

However let's not forget that it was you who said you could pull off a whole game like Crimzon Clover in 2-3 months. Not just a 'short prototype'

I feel you're kinda doing a 180 here but whatever. So long as a good game comes of it..

[Cagar]

If it's anything near Crimzon Clover's quality, then why on earth do you even question that it wouldn't be worth it financially?
You know, as an example, Dodonpachi Saidaioujou sold ~10,000 copies during the first week.
I don't know about Crimzon Clover on steam, but I'd estimate at least few thousand copies already.
Good luck on this then, but for christ's sake, make it using 2D sprites so you can't use your 3D as an excuse.

[smasher501]

Interesting how he posts this on a forum that favours 'classic shmups', then proceeds to tear them apart as if they're nothing. This forum, and all these people are here for a reason. They love shmups. It's a slap in the face to come out with this relatively unimpressive game, and claim yourself messiah of the genre. You should accept the feedback and work on it. At least people have taken the time to download your demo and play it, that's more attention than you deserve. Take their advice, work on your game, and you might end up with something great.

Either way, I look forward to seeing Crimzon Clover 2 (or something of an equivalent quality) in the next 2-3 months.

[CoderGamesIsBack]

Like I said I prefer Ikaruga over Crimzon Clover. My focus are 3d games not 2d games. I'll do my best, but need to emphasize here that I'll not be working full time and if I get too tired it might get more time for me to finish the whole game. I will first provide a prototype, one level with full graphics full game play, full effects, bonuses and whatnot to get feedback from you. If you give it a green light I'll proceed, if not, well, it will be yet another unfinished prototype I might finish one day.

EDIT: Well I said short prototype, so expect it in 2 weeks or so. I will definitely not invest 2-3 months of my time in a game no one wants to play, that's why I'm making a prototype first.

[Cagar]

My conclusion about this guy is that he's not a gamer.
He thinks that making game is just as simple as making it. He doesn't understand even the very very very basics of game-design or anything game-feel related. These concepts don't exist to him, crimzon clover is just "2D sprites and brainless waves, a classic shmup", that's all he can say about it.
I seriously think that he might have some sort of autistic mental problems, that he's incapable of feeling good when playing games. All he sees and cares about is the math and the code, and when someone gives feedback about his game (for example, says that it's shit) he basically thinks that that the player means that his code is shit/wrong somehow.
In short: He doesn't understand what video-games are about.

I'm really looking forward to your prototype though, but I don't have high expectations as it might just prove this post true.
(Unless it really is equal to crimzon clover quality)

[n0rtygames]

EDIT: Well I said short prototype, so expect it in 2 weeks or so. I will definitely not invest 2-3 months of my time in a game no one wants to play, that's why I'm making a prototype first.

Sorry, but you came in here - pissed all over the "simplicity" of the genre this forum is about and on top of that say that you can recreate the most popular doujin STGs in 2-3 months.

Look, if you invest 2-3 months of your time and you create a game like Crimzon Clover. You haven't created a game nobody wants to play. You've created a game that everyone here will buy. If you come up with a game after 2-3 months that nobody wants to play, then you have not managed to do what you set out to do.

So basically you'll make a prototype, it will suck and then you'll just convince yourself that you COULD have made this legendary game if there had been enough interest to justify it financially - but we're just not worthy of your time. Okay.

[CoderGamesIsBack]

Something like that. I don't like the Crimzon Clover, but I do like Ikaruga. So, I'm going to make a game better than Crimzon Clover. It will be in 3d with my cool looking graphic style. Woo, I'm so doing this shit, I'm so doing it! I'm so excited. So, all the 3 of you will purchase the game if it's cool, even if it's better than Crimzon Clover?

[n0rtygames]

Something like that. I don't like the Crimzon Clover, but I do like Ikaruga. So, I'm going to make a game better than Crimzon Clover. It will be in 3d with my cool looking graphic style. Woo, I'm so doing this shit, I'm so doing it! I'm so excited. So, all the 3 of you will purchase the game if it's cool, even if it's better than Crimzon Clover?

No.

[Cagar]

Have you even played crimzon clover?

[CoderGamesIsBack]

Of course, not this latest release though.

So when you say "no" you mean you won't buy my cool game?

[n0rtygames]

I have nothing more to add to this nonsense.

[CoderGamesIsBack]

Let's be serious for a moment. Let's assume I made the best shmup ever. Will you or will you not buy best shmup in the history of shmups? And how many of you are there? 5? 6?

EDIT: if I'm going to work for freaking 2-3 weeks on the prototype, the prototype that will show graphic style, music style, gameplay style, etc. to you, don't you think I deserve to know how many of you are there?

[Cagar]

What? If you made the best shmup ever, there would be hundreds of thousands of purchases, not just "maybe 5 or 6".
Of course I would buy it, just like the rest of the users in this forum.

[CoderGamesIsBack]

Others don't know about me making the game, so how many are there of you here who do?

[Cagar]

If it's the best shmup in the history, don't you think that it would spread pretty fucking fast across all gaming-sites and the internet?

[n0rtygames]

There are plenty of silent people who read this forum and don't comment.

There's also the 'shmups chat' area where you can announce the game when it's done.

You will never get the full feedback of the entire shmups community here in dev forum. Only a select handful of psychotic types like us to give you a hard time.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/re ... -dreamcast

[smasher501]

Others don't know about me making the game, so how many are there of you here who do?

Okay then, it doesn't even have to be literally the greatest shmup ever, if it's even COMPARABLE to the quality of Ikaruga and Crimzon Clover, I'll buy it for $10, since that is the price you can buy both those games for right now. The quality will be judged not by me or you, but by the others in this thread, just to make it fair.

Really I can't believe this is actually happening...

[CoderGamesIsBack]

Mmm, I do not think so. I made the best Invader / Galaxian / etc. alike shmup in the history and I was banned from the number of websites.

I'm also not allowed to open my own kickstarter project. Why? You tell me.

$10 for a game that will be better than those 2? No. Only if you're willing to pay $19.

EDIT: slash that, only if you buy for $19.99, because 1999 is the year NATO bombed my country.