Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

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-S.L-
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by -S.L- »

Despatche, you need to lead people in a far more optimistic way.

There will always be some people who don't care much about scoring, they just play casual style, they are happy with that, but you can not neglect the fact that there is some people who actually play those games not only for the 1CC but also for the score , which is my case, I enjoy a lot more playing for the score and chasing my limits than just 1CC, and if the 1CC is followed by a high score, then i'm more than happy.

But by saying all the time, yeah, people don't care about scoring, they are lame and lazy blablabla... It won't make it better, it's not even encouraging. I know some player that were pretty lame, but they went to event like Stunfest, they liked what they saw, they realise how fun it could be to improve something from average playing to something more challenging, to their own level, their skills improved and they start to like it more and more and get involved into the race of the high score, without beeing crazy high, but they enjoyed a complete way of pliaying those games.

You got to show the way man, not blaming people who doesn't give a fuck but encouraging the people who actually really do :D

- Now back to Crimzon Clover !! :mrgreen:
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by mastermx »

I only care about scoring if I really love the game. I think many people are like that too. Learning scoring for some games means you have to learn the ins and outs and it could be very time consuming. Just because someone wants to play many different games instead of pouring hours into just one, doesn't make them a casual imo. There's so much choice and so many games to enjoy. Also some people have very little free time to play, so I can see how sticking to one game for a long period can get tiresome.

Clover is gonna be awesome. I normally use my pc for mame and Ikaruga, but now that this is coming out, I see good things for shmup pc gamers.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by endoKarb »

chum wrote:In Touhou land it's extremely rare for high level players to sometimes not share a top score (LYX is the only one that comes to mind) and also been part of the speed running community where it's pretty much a given that you need video proof for anything to be counted as real. In relation, non-touhou shmups is extremely backwards...
Touhou has automatic replay saving.

Saving and sharing replays on MAME, PCB or console is a lot more laborious. And that is actually kind of a huge problem, for the very reason you mentioned.
chum wrote:I understand what you mean now, but I don't agree with it, hehe. My personal preference for the scoreboards is to have one main board for all ships, and a sub board for each ship.
Oh right, I wasn`t suggesting to get rid of ship specific sub-boards completely. I`m just talking about the way in which information is presented to the players, at a glance.
Full ship-by-ship leaderboards, as well as many other interesting way to organize and display scores are possible with an automatic leaderboard with little effort.


By the way, talking about Crimzon Clover, maybe we should not repeat the SaiDaiOuJou fiasco, and actually seize to opportunity to generate some interest and activty in these old forums. It`s not like top quality shmups like this get released every other day.

Would there be interest in some kind of official competition?
Maybe something like a one or two months time trial. The players with the best scores in each catagory at the deadline get a permanent mention in the Crimzon Clover WI thread, with a little Hall of Fame scoreboard to commemorate the event.

Or maybe it`s a silly idea. What do you guys think?
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by -S.L- »

it's silly, but I'm in :D
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Despatche »

It's not silly at all, because you'll likely get people to play, simply because you asked. People are locked in this weird mindset that the only time to actually want to play games is in a tourney format, never mind that most people don't try much at all even then. I have been guilty of this for years years years and I still do better than about half of the other entrants.
-S.L- wrote:You got to show the way man, not blaming people who doesn't give a fuck but encouraging the people who actually really do
This is the way, and the people who actually care don't need encouragement; they would end up encouraging everyone else theoretically (they sure as hell encourage me). Yet it's hard to be optimistic about a genre that's mostly bad design everywhere, and about all these groups of people who pretty much think the concept of video games is "outdated".

I have to keep saying these things because people like you keep denying that it happens... except it doesn't do any good, since people like you also like to backpedal and/or change the subject when they realize that they're losing this silly little battle they've made up for themselves.
mastermx wrote:I only care about scoring if I really love the game. I think many people are like that too. Learning scoring for some games means you have to learn the ins and outs and it could be very time consuming. Just because someone wants to play many different games instead of pouring hours into just one, doesn't make them a casual imo. There's so much choice and so many games to enjoy. Also some people have very little free time to play, so I can see how sticking to one game for a long period can get tiresome.
Yes, that does make you a "casual" by this metric, and it also makes you the reason why noone cares about this genre. Why ignore most of a game so you can chain it into ignoring most of another game? These games are meant to be studied and practiced for over a seemingly long period of time, so why not accept that much and just leave the game alone? To put it another way, if you can't accept a game for what it is, please don't try to treat it as something that it isn't.

No, there's nothing wrong with treating "the 1CC" as a first step, but nearly everyone treats it as the end-all and will often refuse to play the game ever again. That's a real problem, because that kind of thinking is what led to the throwaway culture that surrounds the video game these days.
Last edited by Despatche on Fri May 23, 2014 11:16 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Chaos Phoenixma »

Touhou isn't automatic as you have to choose to save the replay. MAME is just as easy to save a replay as Touhou is, just you have to do it before you start the run instead of after, but it's still not any worse since resetting the run will restart the replay. PCB and console is definitely going to be harder as you need additional hardware for that, not including console games with upload replay option.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Despatche »

Yeah, I never got that. People make a really big deal about having to click "save input" before the run for some reason. I can understand some annoyance, but I cannot understand treating it as some impossible request.

I think there's even a way to make it automatically save whenever you start a game, I can't remember.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by WizardYuuka »

Pressing Shift+F3, wait through a loading or nag screen, insert coin, start, and select ship (if applicable) takes longer than pressing Esc-R. Loading a state the moment after ship select is like MAME's Esc+R, but unfortunately doesn't keep the replay. Basically the big deal is that restarts take longer and the title screen takes the place of Stage 1 as your arch-nemesis.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by -S.L- »

I think I got your point more clearly now Despatche :)

Somehow, deep inside you are right, so i won't ask optimism, but enthusiasm could do good too :)

See you on the leaderboard ? ;)
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by mastermx »

Despatche wrote:
mastermx wrote:I only care about scoring if I really love the game. I think many people are like that too. Learning scoring for some games means you have to learn the ins and outs and it could be very time consuming. Just because someone wants to play many different games instead of pouring hours into just one, doesn't make them a casual imo. There's so much choice and so many games to enjoy. Also some people have very little free time to play, so I can see how sticking to one game for a long period can get tiresome.
Yes, that does make you a "casual" by this metric, and it also makes you the reason why noone cares about this genre. Why ignore most of a game so you can chain it into ignoring most of another game? These games are meant to be studied and practiced for over a seemingly long period of time, so why not accept that much and just leave the game alone? To put it another way, if you can't accept a game for what it is, please don't try to treat it as something that it isn't.
can't you read dude. I'm not against scoring. I'm just saying, that for me I only practice scoring in a game if I really love it. At the same time I acknowledge that some people enjoy shmups for survival. You can't call all of these players casuals. these are games, if people are having fun, then they have served their purpose. If it ceases to become enjoyable, whether for score or survival then clearly the purpose of this hobby has been misunderstood.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Erppo »

WizardYuuka wrote:...wait through a loading or nag screen...
I never understood why people are so reluctant to fast-forward through all these. With proper use of the insert key, MAME restarts won't really take any longer. Also you should bind the hard reset to something that doesn't require pressing two keys.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Despatche »

WizardYuuka wrote:Pressing Shift+F3, wait through a loading or nag screen, insert coin, start, and select ship (if applicable) takes longer than pressing Esc-R. Loading a state the moment after ship select is like MAME's Esc+R, but unfortunately doesn't keep the replay. Basically the big deal is that restarts take longer and the title screen takes the place of Stage 1 as your arch-nemesis.
Unless you're using WolfMAME, you should be able to just turbo your way through any of that stuff. You may as well, it's not like even WolfMAME doesn't require the honor system. oop ninja'd by erppo because of this guy:
mastermx wrote:can't you read dude. I'm not against scoring. I'm just saying, that for me I only practice scoring in a game if I really love it. At the same time I acknowledge that some people enjoy shmups for survival. You can't call all of these players casuals. these are games, if people are having fun, then they have served their purpose. If it ceases to become enjoyable, whether for score or survival then clearly the purpose of this hobby has been misunderstood.
I can read just fine, thank you. "I'm not against scoring, except I encourage people to be so.". That is exactly what you've said, and that exactly means you are against scoring. Again, you can't like "the game" if you don't like "scoring".

You also have to understand that a large part of enjoyment is determined by the expectations of others, and that's something you've got to fight.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by WizardYuuka »

Erppo wrote:
WizardYuuka wrote:...wait through a loading or nag screen...
I never understood why people are so reluctant to fast-forward through all these. With proper use of the insert key, MAME restarts won't really take any longer. Also you should bind the hard reset to something that doesn't require pressing two keys.
Even with fast-forward it's still too slow. I want my restarts in 30 frames or less.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Patashu »

Despatche, it's pretty weird to say that achieving something that only a tiny fraction of all gamers will ever achieve (1CC in a tough shmup) makes you a 'casual'.
Maybe once you've been playing shmups for years, you'll have so much built up experience that you'll forget how tough survival is to learn. Don't forget that it's really, really hard for a long time.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Cagar »

Despatche wrote:stuff
"Automated and fast scoreboards would encourage more people to post scores and therefore start competing with others, after seeing how rewarding it is to beat someone in the said scoreboards"
I'm not saying that this would completely fix the situation, but it's just absolutely ignorant to skip this point completely. Especially after our dear friend SL gave us a good story about what happened in the French community.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Patashu wrote:Despatche, it's pretty weird to say that achieving something that only a tiny fraction of all gamers will ever achieve (1CC in a tough shmup) makes you a 'casual'.
Maybe once you've been playing shmups for years, you'll have so much built up experience that you'll forget how tough survival is to learn. Don't forget that it's really, really hard for a long time.
Definitely agree. Whether it's shmups or other genres, it always makes me cringe when experienced players act like challenging games are easy simply because they've surpassed that skill level. Yes, it's somewhat relative, but it's still incredibly deceptive to newcomers to blindly lump games in as "easy" just because you're too good for them.

Anyway only skimmed over the rest of this convo, but honestly there's nothing wrong with only playing for survival. Do whatever you personally enjoy. There are some games I like to play for score and some I like to play for survival, I'm certainly not going to let anyone else's expectations tell me to do something that I find less enjoyable.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by n0rtygames »

Despatche wrote:Yes, that does make you a "casual" by this metric
Can you take this to another thread dedicated to discussing the deep philosophies of shmups the universe and everything? Please? Casual players exist alongside hardcores. Deal with it. But please deal with it elsewhere. It's really fucking hard to spot the posts actually talking about the game amongst all this.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Despatche »

This is ridiculous.

There are no posts about the game. We have nothing yet. You may as well lock that thread until something else actually gets released about it. I think this is the third time I alone have said this.
Patashu wrote:Despatche, it's pretty weird to say that achieving something that only a tiny fraction of all gamers will ever achieve (1CC in a tough shmup) makes you a 'casual'.
Maybe once you've been playing shmups for years, you'll have so much built up experience that you'll forget how tough survival is to learn. Don't forget that it's really, really hard for a long time.
Squire Grooktook wrote:Definitely agree. Whether it's shmups or other genres, it always makes me cringe when experienced players act like challenging games are easy simply because they've surpassed that skill level. Yes, it's somewhat relative, but it's still incredibly deceptive to newcomers to blindly lump games in as "easy" just because you're too good for them.

Anyway only skimmed over the rest of this convo, but honestly there's nothing wrong with only playing for survival. Do whatever you personally enjoy. There are some games I like to play for score and some I like to play for survival, I'm certainly not going to let anyone else's expectations tell me to do something that I find less enjoyable.
Half of my posts are dedicated to how garbage I am at these games, so it's kinda sad to keep seeing this claim come up. The majority of these games are extremely forgiving for a 1CC and allow you to cheese your way on through. It's not that the games are particularly difficult by that metric, it's that you flatly refuse to try. It makes me furious to know just how little people care about this genre and how to play it, as that is a far bigger deception than anything I could possibly think of.

Yes, the really sad part is that, again, someone else's expectations are exactly why you think the way you do, and you refuse to think about them.
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Despatche wrote:stuff
"Automated and fast scoreboards would encourage more people to post scores and therefore start competing with others, after seeing how rewarding it is to beat someone in the said scoreboards"
I'm not saying that this would completely fix the situation, but it's just absolutely ignorant to skip this point completely. Especially after our dear friend SL gave us a good story about what happened in the French community.
But it's not a point. Again, I don't have a problem with automated scoreboards, but I really don't see how you could say it solves the actual situation of people flatly denying the concept of scoring in any possible way. Allow me to amend what I said earlier: shmup.com isn't even an exception, as they never had this problem in the first place, and their particular system changes even less than you're thinking the whole system does.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by CStarFlare »

Obviously, I'm a proponent of automated high score boards.

- Want a scoreboard for Dodonpachi Type A Shot? You can have it, even if you're the one person in the entire community who cares.
- Make it simple to get all of your records in one place. Statistics are cool too.
- No more users posting their scores in the wrong format.
- The automated scoreboard thing. Curating a high score thread is boring.

If you think there's not enough interest in scoring a new system for tracking scores won't do much to help that. But I've found that it's a nice tool to have when I'm in a scoring mood - I occasionally go back and look at my list of scores to see what I haven't touched in a while, if any of them have been beaten, and so on. It's easy to do that when you have an organized, dated list of every score you post ready at the click of a link.

One thing I imagined people could use Restart Syndrome (or any automated system) for is to keep something of a journal of their play. I wouldn't mind if people entered every single credit they played into the system; it's no trouble for a database to record it all and the site can easily be built to report it all back if you want it. It looks like highscores.shmups can even chart it out for you. (I don't know that people would actually be interested in doing this. It seems like a lot of work, but I'm not as serious as a scorer as some people. I recall someone talking about keeping a play journal in a google document, though.)

I really like the French community has done with their high score system. Back when RS launched people had suggested designing it to work similar to what they've put together, but I lack the skills or the dedication to build something more complicated than I can make with guidance from PHP for Dummies.
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Cagar wrote:Why aren't people using restart syndrome?
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Squire Grooktook »

Despatche wrote:T
Half of my posts are dedicated to how garbage I am at these games, so it's kinda sad to keep seeing this claim come up. The majority of these games are extremely forgiving for a 1CC and allow you to cheese your way on through. It's not that the games are particularly difficult by that metric, it's that you flatly refuse to try. It makes me furious to know just how little people care about this genre and how to play it, as that is a far bigger deception than anything I could possibly think of.

Yes, the really sad part is that, again, someone else's expectations are exactly why you think the way you do, and you refuse to think about them.
I honestly disagree. Even if it is easy to "cheese" through them with some dedication, the amount of effort to do even that is still vastly above the vast majority of games out there. Even a simple 1cc of Contra Nes first loop probably requires more legitimate effort and is more likely to make some low level players give up than completing the average hack and slash or action game today. I'm not saying they are the hardest thing ever, but almost everything in this entire genre is above the average game out there in terms of difficulty, so I'd definitely call most shmups hard.

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the "someone else's expectations" thing though, or if that's even directed at me.
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by LordHypnos »

Icarus wrote:Using excuses such as "I only play for survival as I'm a noob" doesn't fly with me either, considering you can get pretty decent scores just going the distance - and posting your score would give you a visible marker for progress, and would start some kind of discussion with other players that could lead to better play.
Not that anyone really cares what I have to say, but I actually do this. I've posted a score in pretty much every game that I've put a decent amount of time into, except Gunbird 2 (only because I wasn't on the forum when I was playing that, and I haven't for a while). I find that it encourages me to try harder, which is cool. but I gotta say that I feel kinda intimidated doing so b/c I feel like people are getting mad that some n00b is posting his kusoscores. I am the sort of person who cares little enough about that that I still do it, but I imagine that other n00bs don't post for similar reasons. I doubt automation would make much difference. Also, after reading this topic, I suspect that there are more people on this forum who think you shouldn't post scores unless you're seriously playing for score than otherwise (hence the intimidation felt is warranted).

Other points:

I tend to agree with Despatche, I think, about seperating different ship styles. Part of the appeal of a game like Gunbird 2, to me, for example, is that it's kind of actually several games, because each of the characters plays notably differently. I feel like I probably will never actually use all of the characters, but I'd like to be able to see how I'm doing compared to other people playing as Morrigan, or Tavia, or whatever. Probably just personal preference. Also: having a combined high score list and individual ones, as suggested by chum, strikes me as a good compromise, especially for games that are not as popular as Gunbird 2, for example, and therefore don't have a significant number of people playing each ship

On the other hand I can't agree with Despatche about games being easy. Have you tried getting through stage 4 of Mars Matrix or Gunbird 2? That takes dedication in its own right. Probably the only games I've put enough effort in to be able to definitively say are really hard to clear (especially as a n00b), but I bet most arcade shmups are similarly difficult to get the 1cc on.

As far as human maintained score threads goes, I must say that I've gotten a lot of useful information from reading the discussion, mostly in the Mars Matrix thread. Unfortunately I can't really participate since nobody plays the same games as me [/emo], but it's definately a significant thing. Surely there could be discussion in the strategy thread, but it seems like there's a good kind of dynamic when people are playing the same game and trying to help eachother with what they're struggling with for good discussion. A bit like arcades probably used to be.

Finally, I've only had one instance where my score didn't update (Trap15, but I don't particularly care about my Blade Buster 2 minute score, anyway, so it's not really worth PMing), and that includes both times that I posted new scores in the Mars Matrix thread, and Rob doesn't even post anymore. This may be because I haven't posted that many high scores, but IDK. still seems worth noting
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by Icarus »

LordHypnos wrote:but I gotta say that I feel kinda intimidated doing so b/c I feel like people are getting mad that some n00b is posting his kusoscores. I am the sort of person who cares little enough about that that I still do it, but I imagine that other n00bs don't post for similar reasons. I doubt automation would make much difference.
And why would anyone get mad at you posting scores? At least you're posting them and contributing something.
Everyone started somewhere on the ladder.
LordHypnos wrote:Also, after reading this topic, I suspect that there are more people on this forum who think you shouldn't post scores unless you're seriously playing for score than otherwise (hence the intimidation felt is warranted).
See reply above. The tiny amount of people who could possibly think this are far outweighed by the vast majority who would welcome new players joining in score threads and adding to the discussion. There are players of all skill levels here, and if someone feels that there is a rivalry going, they're probably going to be more supportive of your efforts in order to nurture that competition.
I think you read too much in to it. Either that or you're negative by default.
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Re: Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

Post by chum »

I love seeing score submissions for the games that I play. It just gives me the sense, more than anything else, that wow, someone else on here actually appreciates this game.

Nobody is going to get mad because you post a score. If anyone ever gets mad at someone else in a score thread it's probably rather because of something they said.

Threads not getting updated is definitely a problem. It discourages people from posting and very few people want to put in the effort of taking over an abandoned score thread.

What they're doing over at Shmup.com is excellent. The system in no way discourages discussion just because of the submission process. If you look at the score threads, they are full of discussion. I think that's proof against the idea that an automated scoreboard would destroy the community aspect. In my opinion we could try to learn from them. We don't need to copy them but they're definitely doing a good thing over there and it's something to think about.

And yes, Restartsyndrome is a good alternative to the scoreboards on here. Not enough people use it in comparison to view it as a leaderboard in the same sense, but it gives you a good overview of what you've done so it's kind of like a journal as previously mentioned.
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Re: Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

Post by Icarus »

chum wrote:What they're doing over at Shmup.com is excellent. The system in no way discourages discussion just because of the submission process. If you look at the score threads, they are full of discussion. I think that's proof against the idea that an automated scoreboard would destroy the community aspect. In my opinion we could try to learn from them. We don't need to copy them but they're definitely doing a good thing over there and it's something to think about.
The problem here is convincing the powers-that-be here to implement it, even as a test. I personally think automation would be quite welcome, as the HS forum and its threads would at least start to move more regularly.

The only issue as you hinted at is the problem of verification. There should be a simple and effective way to flag scores as they approach the upper tiers of the table, and there should be an easy way to add verification data eg screenshots, replay links etc. This is as much a database schema problem as it is a user interface and user experience problem, though, and would need a little bit of thought and some suggested ideas to put something concrete together.

(And while we're on the subject of forum modifications, would it hurt to have a responsive mobile-friendly theme available?)
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Re: Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

Post by LordHypnos »

Well it's good to know that people don't get upset. Not like it would have stopped me, anyway (hasn't yet). I hope some other n00bs are reading this, then. Although, maybe leaderboards just don't appeal to a lot of people, too. I think I am reading too far into it. It's just that so much of communication is nonverbal, so it's hard to know how people feel on the internet.

Where would people discuss with automated leaderboards, though? I feel like the way it usually works is that people submit scores along with some analysis of what they did well, what they struggled with, etc, and if a lot of people are playing the game that's when discussion happens. You could maybe have a thread dedicated to this for each game (in the ST forum or something), but IDK that people would post analysis of their progress like they do in popular high score threads, without actually needing to post the score. I could be wrong, and am willing to be swayed.

Getting replays is easy with 2hu games, and maybe MAME games, but I feel like it's a bit unreasonable of an expectation for console / PCB. This would likely discourage people who don't have decent recording setups from actually posting scores even if they still can post them. Could be wrong about this, though. Maybe a proof pic could be considered adequate for such games, but it doesn't really prove all that much. I don't think that most people care enough to actually post fraudulent scores. I mean, not that many people actually care if you can get however many points in an STG. Pretty much just our tiny ass niche community. Who cares what we think except for us?

EDIT: one more question: what about games with scoring that is really unusual. The only example I can think of is rRootage. In rRootage you have one score for each stage, and then the current maintainer also adds all clear scores together to get a combined score. Idiosyncratic stuff like that might be difficult to implement in an automated board
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Solunas wrote:How to Takumi your scoring system
1) Create Scoring System
2) Make it a multiplier for your actual score
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-S.L-
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Re: Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

Post by -S.L- »

Nobody is getting upset at anyone for posting a score, this is kinda... ridiculous ?

It generates discution and it's fun !

@Icarus, I agree about the verification. We, at Shmup.com, are in a complete trusting code. We know each other, and there is no point of cheating on score. We know who's is able to score like crazy high (i.e if BOS is posting a Ketsui URA 2-ALL we won't argue or find it suspicious), we also know the casual gamers that are not at the top of a board, but we encourage everybody to post anyway as it make this alive and really good fun. Therefor they progress on their side and they do enjoy the genre a lot more than if it was manually updated.

Now of course, if a nobody/new comer arrives and post a Pink Sweets ALL Clear western record, we are gonna ask some kind of prof, leaderboad, replay, vidéo of screen, screenshot (yes easy to manipulate), and eventually, one day or another, cheater will be known from something anyway.

Now what i'm gonna say is fairly important so everybody please pay attention :

I do believe that Shmups.com (here) is and should be THE reference in terms of scores. I mean this is an English speaking board, so it makes it easy for everyone to understand, it's a worldwide place with players from around the world. If you want to know who is the WR holder on X game or if you wanna know where you are rank wise in the shmup world, this should be the place to go and look for those infos.
Now if topics or boards are not up to date, what's the point ?
You guys should evolve in the right direction and not stay in the old fashion way and do it here, for the good of that genre that needs attention, help and developement. (and eventually not spamming our automatic system at Shmup.com :lol: )

If people don't want to play for score, fine ! Leave them having fun this way, nothing wrong at all about this. But cannot hold prisoners all the others from sloppy update (no offence), like seriously, this can do ONLY good for players and Shoot Them Up's in general.
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CStarFlare
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Re: Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

Post by CStarFlare »

When I first joined, I had the sense that board maintainers preferred scores to be of a certain quality, or were a reasonable improvement over your last one. Some of the more popular boards set a cap how many people they'd allow on the board, and in any case if you're taking time out of someone's day it's easy to just feel weird about posting a score for a run that ended in stage 3 when everyone else is throwing up ALLs.
EDIT: one more question: what about games with scoring that is really unusual. The only example I can think of is rRootage. In rRootage you have one score for each stage, and then the current maintainer also adds all clear scores together to get a combined score. Idiosyncratic stuff like that might be difficult to implement in an automated board
This is something I occasionally struggled with on RS, rRootage being a classic example. Usually I just find a "good enough" solution. For something like rRootage, probably just having one board with your combined score would be the solution.
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chum
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Re: Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

Post by chum »

CStarFlare wrote:When I first joined, I had the sense that board maintainers preferred scores to be of a certain quality, or were a reasonable improvement over your last one. Some of the more popular boards set a cap how many people they'd allow on the board, and in any case if you're taking time out of someone's day it's easy to just feel weird about posting a score for a run that ended in stage 3 when everyone else is throwing up ALLs.
These are great points. I was always a bit puzzled by the capped boards. Shouldn't we be welcoming every player?

Every time you post a score on this board, you are directly inconveniencing someone else. Of course it might feel like you're just being an annoyance when you update your own score over and over... Automatic scoreboards solve that too.
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endoKarb
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Re: Crimzon Clover: World Ignition Announced at Stunfest

Post by endoKarb »

Chaos Phoenixma wrote:Touhou isn't automatic as you have to choose to save the replay. MAME is just as easy to save a replay as Touhou is, just you have to do it before you start the run instead of after, but it's still not any worse since resetting the run will restart the replay. PCB and console is definitely going to be harder as you need additional hardware for that, not including console games with upload replay option.
Choosing "save input" before the run instead of after makes a ton of differences. But the real reason why saving input in mame can be hell is because of the NVRAM. Some games don't have any problem with it, others will desync continuosly.

Getting Gunbird 2 .inp to work was a nightmare for me and I still haven't figured out how to get Aine replays to playback correctly (without having to enter the secret code everytime).

Also, about console versions with an upload replay option. It still doesn't doesn't solve anything, since only people who own that particular game in that particular region can watch it. There is no way to put, I dunno, an Akai Katana replay on an online automated scoreboard easily.
CStarFlare wrote:One thing I imagined people could use Restart Syndrome (or any automated system) for is to keep something of a journal of their play. I wouldn't mind if people entered every single credit they played into the system;
This so much. That's exactly why automated scoreboard are so great. If you keep track of everything you do it's a lot harder to get discouraged. You cannot see your progress if you don't keep track of it.

We could really just have a forum section where people can keep track and talk about the games they are playing, with each player having his own topic. Then people could chime in and comment and ask question and stuff like that.

I remeber reading eMuseR DDP log and really enjoying it. It'd be great to see more stuff like that.

I don't think everyone would find it useful, but personally I would love it, and it really wouldn't take much effort at all to implement, now would it?
Icarus wrote:The only issue as you hinted at is the problem of verification. There should be a simple and effective way to flag scores as they approach the upper tiers of the table, and there should be an easy way to add verification data eg screenshots, replay links etc. This is as much a database schema problem as it is a user interface and user experience problem, though, and would need a little bit of thought and some suggested ideas to put something concrete together.
Pretty much agree. If something like this actually gets implemented though, I would jut ignore the problem at first. Getting everything to work correctly and in a user-friendly way is a billion times more important than preventing cheating (even though cheating really really sucks).
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LordHypnos
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Re: Automated scoreboards (split from CC:WI thread)

Post by LordHypnos »

Yeah, that's a good point about maintainers being inconvenienced by frequent score posting. That kinda makes me inclined to get a restart syndrome account. It would be nice to still be able to up my high scores as I get them without bugging some maintainer about every hundred point increase. Weird that I never saw it that way, before.

As for discussion: I still don't know that individual member topics would quite do it. I mean, how many people are gonna be like "Oh hey look! Lord Hypnos posted again, lets check out which game he was just playing" It might be better to have them be on a game by game basis, so that the other people who were interested in playing Mars Matrix, or whatever, would see my posts every time they had made some progress. I'm not really sure, though. I mean, there's still the issue of unpopular games. Maybe people would be more inclined to read about *my* progress rather than Mars Matrix progress in general

Also note that that idea is very much like a blog, not that that makes a difference one way or another.
YouTube | Restart Syndrome | 1cclist | Go Play Mars Matrix
Solunas wrote:How to Takumi your scoring system
1) Create Scoring System
2) Make it a multiplier for your actual score
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