Twin Tiger Shark - Android - PC - XBLIG - OUYA

[DJ Incompetent]

Even so, he has a point, since XBLIG games can't be played offline and may become unplayable when Microsoft discontinues XBL for the 360.

Without some kind of release that I could count on being playable for years to come, I can't make a purchase. Android could be okay but I'm not a fan of that platform's lag issues.

Stop being a tool. It's a dollar. Support your damn community!

[Ed Oscuro]

Really amazing the difference between mice's professional and courteous responses, and some people in this thread who think they actually should take control over somebody else's right to vote with their money.

Money going to mice is what I want; money supporting a service I object to is what I don't. I'm not asking for a boycott or anything - just stating my preference in the hopes that can help the developer find the right platform for me. If I had an Android machine I would jump at that offer.

p.s. I didn't waste my money on credits back in the day, I just bought baseball cards instead Guess they're still worth marginally more than nothing.

But, as you allude to,

You're a professional writer, why are you using this weaselly talk? I'm being explicit here: My harmless request didn't come with a complete manifesto because that wasn't appropriate. I probably should have seen this coming, but this is a Forum, damnit, not the ad section of the paper. Too many people just say "let's be cheerleaders for change" and don't think about what problems digital distribution will bring to preserving the history of games.

[DJ Incompetent]

Do you stand in front of Coca-Cola vending machines and have philosophical monologues?

[Ed Oscuro]

Do you stand in front of Coca-Cola vending machines and have philosophical monologues?

Yes, that's a brilliant analogy. The Forum is nothing but a vending machine. APPARENTLY.

mice isn't deaf and dumb here - he's even said that he prefers to get some feedback like this. Why can't we learn from his example? I assure you that developers with public email addresses have to deal with much worse on a regular basis.

And now I cede the floor back to mice!

[spadgy]

Honestly, I think this is a place to discuss the online-only pros and cons. Since it's a valid point.

If it helps you, then great! If this forum can help shmup devs then that's one of the greatest things we can achieve. On you go people!

But, as you allude to,

You're a professional writer, why are you using this weaselly talk?

Squirrelly talk, thank you very much. And being a professional writer doesn't stop me from being a meek, overly-diplomatic wimp from time to time.

But come on... I just used the word 'allude'. You really think I was being deceitful or treacherous in my choice of words? That seems a little mean in the context (unless you felt I was misrepresenting what you said?). Honestly, I think that post is among my lesser failings. And believe me, not every single one of my articles is a Pultizer-standard masterpiece of syntax and lexus, so the same's certainly the case for my posts here. (I do appreciate as I write the irony, in that I'm reacting to your objection of a word I've used by zeroing in on a word you've used.).

Lets all try and be nice while we disagree, or half-disagree!

More towards topic, I'm happy to pay under these circumstances when it's a handful of pocket change. And people who don't want to are absolutely entitled to do so. However, where I concede to your point Ed, and where you have me thinking about how my position may be a little idealistic, is around the issue of having to dance to the tune of the platform holder when you don't like their model. But such is the nature of games needing platforms. Happily, we're all free to decline a model, even if it does lead o arguing on the internet.

The issue of preserving history is an interesting one too, which I feel mixed about. I feel preserving the history of games is an important one as they are a bona fide cultural artefact, but then if their history includes them becoming a digital medium, a lack of permanence to the medium is part of that history. Will Twin Tiger Shark be able to be part of that history as readily as a cartridge based equivalent? Perhaps not, and that seems a real shame. But if it's a good or important game its legacy should outlast its platform regardless of physicality.

EDIT:

Do you stand in front of Coca-Cola vending machines and have philosophical monologues?

Yes, that's a brilliant analogy. The Forum is nothing but a vending machine. APPARENTLY.

I don't think this means anything in this context, but I feel compelled to post one of my favourite scenes from a film as a child.

[n0rtygames]

mice isn't deaf and dumb here - he's even said that he prefers to get some feedback like this. Why can't we learn from his example? I assure you that developers with public email addresses have to deal with much worse on a regular basis.

The thing is - this 18p rebellion against Microsoft actually damages his chances of future success on the platform. He has 1 week to get as much exposure as possible from the time of release otherwise his game is doomed. He needs to be in the top rated in at least one territory to even have a noticable tail on his game.

Recognition on XBLIG is gained through a few channels:
* Newly released (Here's your free week - GLHF)
* Top rated
* Top selling daily
* Top downloaded

As I'm sure you can imagine, these are incredibly difficult to achieve when you're up against Minecraft clones and similar. So really the only ones a STG developer can count on are top rated (i.e you give it 5 stars) and that there is enough love for the game to get more daily sales than a game that's been established for a while and is living off its tail. All it takes is for one dev with enough friends to downvote his game and boom - he's gone from that territory.

I know you want to take the wind out of Microsoft's sails and I fully respect what you're saying about voting with your wallet here - but in reality the turbulence which you will cause is far more like a fart in a jacuzzi : Short lived, silly and really everyone is wondering why you did it.

FYI the cut is 70/30 - Mice/MS.

I just do not think that you can argue 'principals' when really the only person you're hindering is Mice. Because you sure as hell aren't going to stop Microsoft. Lesser of two evils!

Just trying to help you make an informed choice. If you still don't wanna buy it - we have to respect the integrity of your principals by seeing no difference between support of 1 penny versus a hundred pounds. But honestly I do have to at least speak up and say there are more factors here than simply flipping a middle finger to the service.

[n0rtygames]

I don't think this means anything in this context, but I feel compelled to post one of my favourite scenes from a film as a child.

DJI is merely stating that the cost of the game can be likened to a can of coke.

Here's what happens when you rebel against the price of a can of coke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2YRMixW9u8

[spadgy]

DJI is merely stating that the cost of the game can be likened to a can of coke.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear (maybe ed has a point about me and words!). I meant my vending machine video contribution likely didn't mean anything. I certainly wasn't suggesting ed deserved to be pelted with cans of coke. If such a thing happened, I'd throw my squirrely body in front of him, The Bodyguard style.

[Ed Oscuro]

At the risk of prolonging the pain, I'll say that there are many cases where society (or at least some members within it) demand that best practices be followed, and in fact this is the way things should work. I don't think that saying "it's just games (it doesn't matter)" or "the games are too cheap to care (surely developers wouldn't like to hear this!)" has anything to do with assuaging my concerns about the future of digital media and preserving things we are making right now so they can be enjoyed in the far future. The protests surrounding the Xbox One's disastrous unveiling was really about many of the same issues.

It sounds like a lot of noise over not much, but this is how profound anti-consumer changes sneak by - when people fail to set any boundaries on content services other than delivering instant gratification.

It would have been too easy just not to say anything and carry on, but this is a transaction (potentially) between mice and myself - and the service provider taking a cut. It's hard to see why other people think they should butt into that transaction, when my goal is to make things better for everyone.

@ n0rtygames: Almost all of that, like the 70/30 balance, is completely irrelevant. If you don't like the idea of community feedback on issues people hold dear, maybe you should take out a print ad instead. There's also a very apparent inconsistency between saying it's a "silly" and "small" concern while admitting that these sales are lifeblood - I totally agree with that last bit, which is why I said I'm not calling for a boycott. Good Old Games hasn't displaced Steam, and Steam hasn't eliminated the consoles - but it's important all the same.

Thanks for the kind words, Spadgy, I'm afraid your furry little body won't hold up too well to a few cans of coke though - I've been scratched bashed around with all kinds of things recently, so I'm sure I'll manage.

[BIL]

If such a thing happened, I'd throw my squirrely body in front of him, The Bodyguard style.

Oi spadgy, did you just spoil the ending of the 1992 Kevin Costner masterpiece, which gained him an MTV Movie Award for Most Desirable Male nomination?! Bloody squirrels, should've never given you the internet! now to sit back and watch the flames erupt in earnest! ^_~

[spadgy]

If such a thing happened, I'd throw my squirrely body in front of him, The Bodyguard style.

Oi spadgy, did you just spoil the ending of the 1992 Kevin Costner masterpiece, which gained him an MTV Movie Award for Most Desirable Male nomination?! Bloody squirrels, should've never given you the internet! now to sit back and watch the flames erupt in earnest! ^_~

Oh lord. I have, haven't I? If I remove the capitalisation, does that make it better? Then I'm talking about a bodyguard.

[BIL]

Unfortunately his unforgettable performance forever made the profession synonymous with his manly charm, so no dice. As penitence, please meditate on his inimitably masculine glory for a few hours.

[Ed Oscuro]

Wait, what? Russell replaced Costner in Django, but is he now traveling back in time to replace Costner in the title role?! Maybe he can do something about my BILLG PROBLEMS while he is there. Pew pew indeed! ^_~

[BIL]

*knock knock*

"Are you Bill 'XBLI' G?"
"WHO WANTS TO KNOW ASSWIPE"
*beard decapitation*

[amdiggywhut]

I bought the game and played it for awhile yesterday. Not familiar with the source material but I definitely enjoyed my time with it. Great cover art too.

[MOSQUITO FIGHTER]

The QR code score score upload thing is so slick. Why hasn't anyone else done this before?

[n0rtygames]

The QR code score score upload thing is so slick. Why hasn't anyone else done this before?

Lack of smartphone

Also there's some BS in rules and regulations on XBLIG about not directing users to websites etc etc - but it seems nobody is that anal anymore. (You used to get some serious beard stroking peer reviewers on XBLIG)

[mice]

regulations on XBLIG about not directing users to websites etc etc

I acutally searched for that before submitting and couldn't find any. I was sure I had read it somewhere some time ago but I must have mixed it up with the customer-data-collection part...I think.

Great cover art too

Game wouldn't be half as good without the music and cover art to go with it.

[n0rtygames]

I acutally searched for that before submitting and couldn't find any. I was sure I had read it somewhere some time ago but I must have mixed it up with the customer-data-collection part...I think.

99% sure there used to be something about not requesting that users go and do things such as clicking websites, giving votes here and there etc. Probably had a case of someone unreasonably failing a game for including a link or something daft and thus it was reworded.

Ultimately it comes down to whether the peer reviewer is feeling psychotic on that particular day... you know how it goes..

[CloudyMusic]

Ultimately it comes down to whether the peer reviewer is feeling psychotic on that particular day... you know how it goes..

"Excuse me, sir, but I attempted to save the game to a memory unit which was full, removed it while it was trying to save, signed out of my profile, and poured hot coffee into the disc tray all at the same time. The game didn't actually crash, but it did take me back to the title screen which was confusing. Voting to reject."

I haven't been involved in the XBLIG scene in about 5 years, but it sounds like not too much has changed

[Jeneki]

Oh man, definitely have to hook up the 360 tonight and check this out.

[Despatche]

unfortunately i have no 360. your game's graphical style reminds me slightly of ghost pilots; not exactly a bad thing by itself.

not understanding the call for continues... just have a nice stage select instead, that's the real solution.

[spadgy]

not understanding the call for continues... just have a nice stage select instead, that's the real solution.

Yeah; that seems a great solution; could even implement a practice mode as with some Cave releases, where you can tinker with some settings to set the bomb stock, rank etc to a point that matched your typical performance by the given stage in a normal credit.

I think, in terms of getting people to understand how the genre is meant to be played (and best enjoyed), and avoid reviews where credit-feeding novices say 'rubbish, I completed it on my first go', a 'no continues' approach is a good one.

[n0rtygames]

I think, in terms of getting people to understand how the genre is meant to be played (and best enjoyed), and avoid reviews where credit-feeding novices say 'rubbish, I completed it on my first go', a 'no continues' approach is a good one.

Unfortunately Spadgy - I wish this was the case. I gave a full practise mode in CB (excluding second loop because I'm an asshat) - single credit on score attack and 2 credits on arcade which I felt was sufficient to complete normal difficulty.

http://www.fateofthegame.com/indie-review-chronoblast/

Posted that on IRC and half the dudes piled on.. (which btw, is sort of cool - but also highly uncool. Try not to do that guys - makes us look kinda psychotic!)

Some people genuinely believe credit feeding to be a part of the arcade experience. Which it is... but that only really counts if you are actually exchanging coin for credit when in a game over state.

[Despatche]

wow, i can't believe that was only half a year ago... err... only two other people posted there. but uh

Imagine not being able to put in a quarter after you die — what a ripoff.

any reasonable human being should go to war over such a statement. it really has nothing to do with the genre, or with gaming

in fact let me just pull out this giant block of text

first off, super star soldier is absurdly easy, no matter what skill level you may put yourself at. most compile (and friends) games are. i am absolute dogshit at these games and i get bored by compile.

continues are not “extended play”. extended play is throwing those continues away and learning the game. that’s not elitist, that’s the whole point. continuing isn’t even the “arcade experience”, really; the previous aside, many earlier games had no such mechanic… and the entire industry was better for it.

if chronoblast has no continues (keep in mind that it does), it would then be the satisfying experience; adding them would turn it into the time waster. that is what continues /do/; not encourage people to learn the game, but to rush through it and never touch it again.

i like that you find autobomb insulting, though. it is indeed as much of a crutch as lives or bombs themselves… but so are continues. continues are that ultimate crutch that make the entire game self-defeating; there’s no point in getting to the end of a game if you haven’t actually done anything for it. lives and bombs are similar, but far less so, and some games have been creative and turned both into resources you can actually use, as opposed to marks against you.

the only reason continues exist is because it was easy money in an arcade setting. it's a really poor mechanic in that context, it got even worse when games started "ending", and even in ports it's completely unbearable out of the arcade context

[n0rtygames]

Ah, sorry - I guess I read your "not understanding the call for continues" as "I don't understand the call you made regarding continues". I see now you are not advocating continues - but rather a way to practise stages so you can do a proper run right?

I actually agree with you on this. My preferred format would be:

* Single credit run for actual gameplay
* Stage select based practise menu with a few settings
* and nothing else

I have had a whole bunch of requests on my facebook page though from people outside of the forums begging for the ability to continue so they can 'complete' the game. Something you really have to stand firm on.

Personally I'm in the same camp as Spadgy of not really using savestates/practise 99% of the time. I just do single credit runs on the game and get as far as I can. Takes longer, but meh - not everyone sees the fun in this

[spadgy]

Unfortunately Spadgy - I wish this was the case. I gave a full practise mode in CB (excluding second loop because I'm an asshat) - single credit on score attack and 2 credits on arcade which I felt was sufficient to complete normal difficulty.

http://www.fateofthegame.com/indie-review-chronoblast/

I see. I guess it's wishful thinking to assume a sudden unquestioning adoption of our fixation on the single credit (I was kind of recognising that when I mentioned Twin Tiger Sharks' 'no continues' model being brave/bold earlier in this thread). The whole single credit thing is a tough one in terms of implementation, I guess; perhaps because player enforced rules/mechanics that (in most shmup cases anyway) exist outside the coding of the game are a relative rarity in the medium. If more genres did it, perhaps getting the message across would be easier.

At least you tried!

Some people genuinely believe credit feeding to be a part of the arcade experience. Which it is... but that only really counts if you are actually exchanging coin for credit when in a game over state.

That's interesting indeed. For some people it's all about credit feeding. To each their own, I guess!

EDIT: I just spotted your sig text n0rtygames. I've no idea if it's meant to mean anything, but I love it!

[Alfred]

Word of mouth will help sales on XBLIG marketplace. I recommended it to two of my friends on xbox live a Scotsman and a Japanese man and they both liked it and bought it. I will try to get others to try/buy it thank you for releasing it on Xbox mate.

[n0rtygames]

Spadgy, perhaps we just need to replace the "CONTINUE?" message with "PAY TO WIN?"

It's not just the credit feeding aspect of it that's hard to get across, it's the entire competitive mindset. Most people here, whether they're at the level of some of the real high scorers on here or right down the bottom of the skill ladder on shmups forum - all of us tend to 'get it' in the sense that we recognize it as a skill based game requiring a block of time to be put aside. Games these days tend to be very handholdy, developers are afraid of making you go back to the start of a level or even present you with an actual gameover state. People are used to checkpoints that have next to no penalty. You just eventually muddle your way through.

Now I can fully understand this for games where the focus is on story and getting a more movie like experience out of it. You wouldn't want to rewind a DVD 15 minutes and watch the same part over and over. But for skill based games it's important to reset the conditions and block the players progress. That said, on the old c64 version of Bubble Bobble I recall being much younger and credit feeding my way through the game because I had the coordination of a drunk walrus. Even to the point of having two joysticks plugged in and thinking I was super smart for tagging in player 2 before I died (Don't ask.)

The point of the Bubble Bobble example is that I have fond memories of that game despite being only 3 feet tall and quite rubbish at it. I think the first objective of a developer should be to make a fun game and your goal is never to block the player from doing what they want to do. So one fair way to go about this is actually to keep a credit system but just do not record scores past the first credit.

Short of ending the game with "You used more than 1 credit - you suck! Have a bad ending!" (Which I've done) - I dunno how else to best try to convey this message without completely disregarding casual players who despite what many of us will want to believe - are extremely important to the growth of the genre. So for now I'm pretty settled on a credit system with limited credits for unranked play or just discounting score past the first credit.

</rant>

[spadgy]

I used to credit feed Bubble Bobble as a youngster and have a jolly old time, so there's a place for credit feeding games and having fun! Indeed, me and my wife enjoy playing it 2-player once in a while theses days, and credit feed when we do that. So suddenly I'm taking the side of allowing multiple credits. It certainly an interesting challenge for devs. TxK's structuring handled it gracefully with Classic mode.

I'd like to see, just to see the way it was played and the response, a 'free-to-play' shmup where it was free for credit one, but you paid each time you hit continue. I'm not here to praise or demonise F2P, but it might make for an interesting approach to credit use.