Is the Genre Seeing an Increase in Popularity?

[Cagar]

Guys, let us not pretend shit. The future of this genre is on phones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5R_pS0h5Qk

I could have sworn that link was gonna lead to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0

Why not this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iWWf6KqIQw

[Kiken]

I feel like too many people treat games like popcorn experiences to be completed once, enjoyed as a novelty, and than tossed aside when it's done.

"Disposable gaming".. which easily fits under "disposable entertainment" as a whole.

If cave would finally take the bait and move to PC. Steam or not, they could literally sell thousands. No costs for hardware, all digital. Easy cash on old IPs. Perhaps they are scared about piracy, or scared having their back cataloge on steam arcade perfect would unintentionally decrease the value of their pcbs i don't know. but looking at steam, it was only today that I realized that ikaruga and metal slug 3 are coming to steam. what a day it has been

Cave did the above bolded already with iDevices (and the 360 XBLA release of Guwange). Last I checked, their games weren't exactly flying off the proverbial shelf (simply making something cheap and accessible doesn't necessarily make it something that people will want to purchase). Emulation of older Cave games has been around for eons... it, along with vast majority of ports have done little to affect the resale value of the PCBs (the markets are radically different). Also, Ikaruga and Metal Slug 3 have been ported numerous times already to a variety of consoles and devices (it's nothing new for either title).

Shmups forum has like 3x higher post-rate than shoryuken.com forum's Street Fighter IV category, yet evo-tournament has 150k viewers, growing each year.

It's not really fair to compare us to the FGC. Fighting games are all about short, intense bursts of lunacy between 2 human players in a direct attempt to decide a victor. Add to that metric fuck-tonnes of drama from a cavalcade of e-celebs which give the genre a notoriety and visibility that our genre will just never be able to procure (despite various attempts by some ex-members here...).

[Plasmo]

The genre is dead since WW2 let's face it.

[EmperorIng]

Cave did the above bolded already with iDevices (and the 360 XBLA release of Guwange). Last I checked, their games weren't exactly flying off the proverbial shelf (simply making something cheap and accessible doesn't necessarily make it something that people will want to purchase). Emulation of older Cave games has been around for eons... it, along with vast majority of ports have done little to affect the resale value of the PCBs (the markets are radically different). Also, Ikaruga and Metal Slug 3 have been ported numerous times already to a variety of consoles and devices (it's nothing new for either title).

You are certainly right in that just because something is accessible doesn't mean it will significantly increase its sales numbers. But the problem then is Cave making games with little mainstream appeal. Obviously we're all here because we like a niche sub-genre, but this forum's hardly representative of a larger (profitable) gaming public. I may really dig Guwange but there's nothing about it that would guarantee anything but miniscule acceptance amongst genre enthusiasts. But all the same, wider releases don't hurt.

The genre is dead since WW2 let's face it.

It will remain that way until we find the Loop Master.

[Squire Grooktook]

Fighting games are all about short, intense bursts of lunacy

This part at least could be applied to shmups. The rest though, yeah you're probably right.

[Pretas]

Perhaps I phrased that poorly. More accurate to say I think that people don't see single player games as having any depth or replay-ability at all and see the idea of competition and dedicated play in single player as something impossible and alien. I feel like too many people treat games like popcorn experiences to be completed once, enjoyed as a novelty, and than tossed aside when it's done.

I must sadly agree. Achievements/trophies and the vapid, overly scripted and cinematic single-player campaigns in most modern AAA action titles have especially helped to feed the widespread perception of dedicated SP games as nothing more than disposable interactive movies. So when a game like Vanquish comes around that defies this norm, people have the wrong expectations for it, and don't want to practice to be able to play it well if there's no multiplayer.

[Kiken]

Cave did the above bolded already with iDevices (and the 360 XBLA release of Guwange). Last I checked, their games weren't exactly flying off the proverbial shelf (simply making something cheap and accessible doesn't necessarily make it something that people will want to purchase). Emulation of older Cave games has been around for eons... it, along with vast majority of ports have done little to affect the resale value of the PCBs (the markets are radically different). Also, Ikaruga and Metal Slug 3 have been ported numerous times already to a variety of consoles and devices (it's nothing new for either title).

You are certainly right in that just because something is accessible doesn't mean it will significantly increase its sales numbers. But the problem then is Cave making games with little mainstream appeal. Obviously we're all here because we like a niche sub-genre, but this forum's hardly representative of a larger (profitable) gaming public. I may really dig Guwange but there's nothing about it that would guarantee anything but miniscule acceptance amongst genre enthusiasts. But all the same, wider releases don't hurt.

Cave have done lots of branching into different genres with wider mass appeal: Nin^2 Jump, Bug Princess Panic, Instant Brain, Steep Slope Sliders, Uo Poko, Princess Debut, Mushihimetama, etc. We've discussed this before at multiple MD/VA/DC shmupmeets... Cave simply have no fucking clue how to advertise. Like, at all. They have managed to create a whole slew of marketable IPs that they do next to nothing with. Let's take a for-instance: Deathsmiles. Five highly recognizable characters in the first game with 2 additional added in the second... their first console release to go international and that managed to produce fairly healthy sales for the genre. You'd think they would have done something with this popularity.. like gotten some baseline anime series made (say 13 episodes) or released a line-up of figures/dolls. Straightforward stuff like that to increase awareness and strengthen the IP. What did they release? Fuck pillows and Casper's piss in a bottle.

[Laurel_McFang]

There's a ton of shmups being produced for the iPhone (if you can call many of then shmups) and via indies in the PC marketplace, but what we're not seeing is quality shmups (present company excepted) we're seeing student games basically. Shmups aren't technically that hard to produce for an indie from scratch, but I played a free to play dragon shmup on iOS the other day (line dragon flight) which is more of an excuse to spend money on upgrades than a game. My point being there have been like 3-4 posts in the last 2 weeks from indie devs who have never chatted here and just made a shooter for the sale of making a shooter (it really is a good my first game genre). The genre needs Studios focused on making shmups close to exclusively people who love the genre and want to make more games. In the later case doujin approaches that. Touhou isn't pretty, but it is interesting mechanically. The genre in other words needs more quality developers and I do think the doujin scene is where those games are more likely to come from than Chillingo. Some of the free to play Asian shmups aren't bad. I like the for kako games and some of the free to play ios shooters are even ports of existing arcade games, but in the sense of gamers as a whole shmups aren't taken that seriously. It would take One of the doujin developers with an awesome idea and a good engine and assests to do that which we might get if Edelweiss, revolver 360, or any of the other doujin triple a looking games turn out to reinstate interest and relevance to the genre. It's a shame because as a genre shmups were a fairly unique and original type of game with new ideas crawling out of the gills. Edit: my apologies btw to indie shmups which do contain many quality games: the problem really is that unlike fighting games shmups don't seem to have the same relevancy to the gamer community as other genres do. We've seen a resurgence in point and click adventures and some interesting experiments (McPixel), but I don't see major gaming sites featuring indie, doujin, or even ios shmups as prominently as many indie attempts to breathe new life into older genres.

[CKR]

I would say shmups aren't getting more popular. I recently researched the amount of press coverage on many of the most popular shmups on this forum. The results were pretty bad. Crimzon Clover had a small article on indiegames.com, and that was all I could find on that game. There wasn't even a review to be found for it. This forum intrigued me enough to follow the genre, but I don't think that it can carry the genre into the future. The youtube and twitch streams of high level play are definitely a step in the right direction. STG Weekly commentary is helping to bring out the human element in these replays. I've recently noticed Chum and Soft Drink giving commentary on their channels as well. Great job!

[Laurel_McFang]

I would say shmups aren't getting more popular. I recently researched the amount of press coverage on many of the most popular shmups on this forum. The results were pretty bad. Crimzon Clover had a small article on indiegames.com, and that was all I could find on that game. There wasn't even a review to be found for it. This forum intrigued me enough to follow the genre, but I don't think that it can carry the genre into the future. The youtube and twitch streams of high level play are definitely a step in the right direction. STG Weekly commentary is helping to bring out the human element in these replays. I've recently noticed Chum and Soft Drink giving commentary on their channels as well. Great job!

I am fairly confident that the problem is not enough writers covering that scene. Perhaps you could review doujin games for them?

[CKR]

I am fairly confident that the problem is not enough writers covering that scene. Perhaps you could review doujin games for them?

I'm considering building a website to promote shmups.

[Cagar]

Shmups forum has like 3x higher post-rate than shoryuken.com forum's Street Fighter IV category, yet evo-tournament has 150k viewers, growing each year.

It's not really fair to compare us to the FGC. Fighting games are all about short, intense bursts of lunacy between 2 human players in a direct attempt to decide a victor. Add to that metric fuck-tonnes of drama from a cavalcade of e-celebs which give the genre a notoriety and visibility that our genre will just never be able to procure (despite various attempts by some ex-members here...).

fair to compare

uhhh?
Of course we can compare, and like I explained, that reason you mentioned is exactly why shmups won't reach the public eye.
Unless I start working on the PvP shmup i've been thinking about some day, (< good game, promise)
not like twinkle star pepsis or PoFV.

[seraph]

For what it's worth, I was 19 when I discovered Touhou less than two years ago, and I hardly knew anything about shmups until less than a year ago, but I have a large and growing shmup collection now. It was a very nice surprise, how artful this genre is and how dedicated the fans are. If a teenager like me with a totally different concept of what games were supposed to be could become a fan in such a short time, I'm sure there are plenty of others. I also think the popularity of Touhou has opened a door for younger people, so to speak.

[system11]

Touhou is a powerful gateway drug - it can lead you to shmups or lolicon.

[mastermx]

Cave did the above bolded already with iDevices (and the 360 XBLA release of Guwange). Last I checked, their games weren't exactly flying off the proverbial shelf.

I think the sales of deathSmiles speaks for itself. Deathsmiles sold extremely well on 360, and would warrant another look into the popularity of shmups even amongst the mainstream.

As to the ports on iDevices ... That's precisely the problem. If they are a niche as everyone says, then that was one of their biggest flaws. Releasing shmups on phones was imho a terrible decision. A shmup isn't a shmup with 1:1 touch controls, it is a joke. Plus if they are a niche, then why not port the games to the most open platform availible (PC). I don't have a 360, and couldn't afford to get one with shmups at the time. If they wanted to test the console market they should have gone for ps3 as well as 360.

In addition to all of this, I have an android, and will never move to iphone. I actually purchased the android ports of their shmups, and it is one of the worst ports I have ever had, mainly because the thing won't even start, and neither g-gee nor cave respond to emails. They used G-gee which in my opinion is one of the worst android platforms.

You see, they should by now know of our presense here on the net. We all come from many backgrounds and different ways of life. Their mistake was that, though the games were tailored to us, they did not tailor their marketing nor their ports to us. I tweeted them plenty of times a couple of years back. If they had ported to PC with or even without DRM, I strongly believe they would have done much better as well as expand and grow the shmupping community.

In hindsight, I think they were doing O.K. when they were releasing to the japanese market, considering most of us import anyway, so shmups did not destroy them as a business. It's corporate greed that drove cave down this rabbit hole. This ever need for expansion. In the begining it was all about the shmups, and now it's all about expansion and avarice. As mentioned earlier in another thread on the forum, they had a massive amount of employees in a company that needs but a few to do what they do. Asada was the last to even care about shmups, now it's this iphone social app crap with IAPs that they are pushing.

I believe shmups are gaining popularity. They are a staple of gaming. But being stuck in one's old ways, and not adapting to the new digital revolution will destroy shmup devs.

[Neptas]

I'd like to add a small thing I didn't see in this thread yet.

Shmups are known to be difficult. Even if you can find some Shumps that are not hard at all (and have easy mode, etc.), most of them will need practice to finish them. This is like that because Shmups directly descends from arcade games (contrary to almost any other kind of games, except Railshooter and Fighting games). I think this is the main reason why most people know doesn't like Shmup.

You actually need to play smart and a bit more than expected to make progress in it. It's not like your (Totally random example NOT) Casual-FPS, that you can charge with your automatic rifle in the middle of an army. You die, who cares in fact? You will re-start 5 seconds ago, and you have infinite life, all ammo / health are restored, etc. You don't see that in Shmups, you're given 3 lifes, and you deal with it. Of course, you can go credit spam, but each time you lose one credit, it will be writin in huge in the middle of the screen "GAME OVER, CONTINUE?". A person who sees Game Over right at the second level will immediately stop playing, and never try it again ("This game sucks and is f***ing too hard, I died on first stage pfffffffff").

Games now lead toward easy access to every player, so global difficulty have considerably dropped. Shmups are considered old games that have made their time, and old games are also quite known to be extra-ordinary difficult (compared to nowadays games). If you ever played World of Warcraft, just look at it how much in changed in the years, because of casual players.

So wait, I'm not against casual-players, I think games are for everyone, even people who doesn't really want to invest time / energy, and just need a time-killer. But we can't deny that they made games a lot easier than before, at a point that now, difficult games are considered bad (I read many test over the internet, giving bad grades to games, simply cause they didn't finish it in their first try. Sad).

If you feel the genre is increasing, I think that's majoritarly due to some Shumpers (hardcore or simply just interested in it a bit), or even more aged gamers, who missed that era. Some of them managed to do their own Shmup. Also, Shmups are technicaly not hard at all to do, so for new programmers, it's a very good way to train while making a game. You will always see Shmups in flash games on the internet, or small games to download here and there, but except from companies like Cave, and some others indie developpers, I doubt we will see many "serious" Shmups.

(I wrote that a bit in a hurry, I hope it's still readable )

[XoPachi]

I'm back.
...

I hope some of you weren't that dense to honestly think by "more popular" I meant CoD/Uncharted/Nintendo level AAA spotlight popular. That's what I'm getting from some responses. lol

But the discussion on the general state of the industry as a whole is going nicely actually.

[Blackbird]

It's not like your Casual-FPS, that you can charge with your automatic rifle in the middle of an army. You die, who cares in fact? You will re-start 5 seconds ago.

Rant time! Yeah, this is a pet peeve of mine in modern games. I go friggen nuts when I watch some mongo LP'er clumsily stagger about a level while a half a dozen enemies shoot him, then grumble when a half minute later the enemies finally kill him. Then of course he respawns just before he entered the room. As a game developer, why even allow the player to die at all if you're just going to respawn him in place with no consequences?

If you're going to be that casual about it, just take death out of the game entirely =P.

[KAI]

You want to increase the popularity? Try the Blazblue solution, just add a lot of dialogs/story between the fights/stages. It works perfectly. Thousands of people are going to play the game for the wrong reasons but, who cares, it will be popular.
Shmups Visual Novel, that's the future.

[RegalSin]

On the subject of casual gamers. Lets be realistic, many spouses have nothing in common, or very little to talk about, asides what goes on in the bedroom, or little do together, and while most if not all men, typical ideal views towards women is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoeXh-0QLEs

Most men ( I mean men who are not into videogames at all, or really cares about anything to do with it ) in general see their women like the above example, with sewing, church, photography, illustration, and anything else a woman could hold intrest in. Videogames have become like that, nowadays.

It is like how the television media made fun of synth musicians, or how phucking Marvel ( owned by Disney ) just decided out of nowhere to make the Green Latern a non-heterosexual. People will constantly do things to attack the things we love, and hold holy, like the rainbow, or the color purple, or the rose.

What is a casual gamer? A person who plays videogames, if the option is right in front of thier face like a cell phone, or look WiiSports is a "smart" choice as a videogame. Lets not forget about the blasfamy of the PS4 and it's "Prime Time" gaming efforts.


On the subject of shooters being download pay only

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3ubag7dtn4

or maybe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zxGZYqmo4M

Another thing I want to mention, is that in Japan, many of these digital download copies, are made in hard copies at some point.

On the subject of Tohu, and other great ficitonal works. Keep in mind it was youth culture ( ten times better then the rubbish we have to deal with now ) back then, and people were submerged into normality, for that DAD fan, who was also a Pinku fan, things worked out. If it was not for that same youth culture, every single thing would look like G.I. Joe, or some variant of Red China.

On the subject, of games being usable once. How many people really enjoyed going thru a Resident Evil more then once? In comparison to something like "Beyond Good and Evil" a Resident Evil game, is like going thru insanity, standing still shooting or dodging hordes of Zombies, I mean it is insanity, to go back. So they have make extra modes, and hidden characters to make you want to go back. Then of course Zelda OOT64, which many people did buy, but then they all returned the N64 and the game, when they were done with it.

With shooters, the fun of the game is being able to challenge score, challenge five minute mode, to see how far you will get. Even get access to extra ships. Take Star Soilder N64 ( while I will admit the earlier hudson games is infinity better , this game has secret paths, and very creative enemies, while the ships are not too hot. Then of course is the attack carrier, the moves you from place to place, or affecting the big battle in the background, or switiching paths. The same could be said about "Sin and PUnishment 64" I mean damn, Treasure. Then thier are the level creativity, and originalism. From themes, to all sorts of interactions. Also with a shooter, you can play it, while waiting for your spouse to finish changing, and drop it, and pick it back up for later.

Shooters are not going anywhere. About ownership of real games. That is not going anywhere anytime soon. Videogames have finally reached thier limit, because of the lack of respect for the genre, it is final freed of any negative vibes or abuse from political and news media gain.

[kid aphex]

A few weeks ago, I was dragged to Anchorman 2. It was a terrible movie, but to me it's greatest offense had nothing to do with the acting, script or direction, but with the set design.

The movie took place in the late 70's/early 80's, but every scene was decorated with modern furniture that modern humans interpreted as "vintage looking". This was immediately noticeable to me and, I imagine, to anyone with a modicum of interest in interiors, or design in general. At first I interpreted the transgression as the result of laziness--- but then I began to wonder how difficult it must be to find genuine vintage articles in screen-worthy condition.

Point is,

The sad, disappointed 'disgust' I felt at the anachronistic design of the movie is similar to how I feel about most games nowadays, particularly STGs. So many socio-cultural (and beyond) variables in such particular constellation are reflected in the creation of ANYTHING, that it becomes increasingly difficult to reproduce the purity of that THING as time marches on. Most modern STGs are mere shadows of a STATE of the genre I subjectively understand as archetypal.

If STGs at their most popular were once the dinosaurs of the videogame softwarescape, then their modern descendants are birds: Efficient, agile, and less energy intensive refinements.

As indie development explodes (a reflection of the decreasing energy requirement in the production of certain games) STGs will experience (are experiencing) an injection of creative will. But do these creators really even understand the nuances of the the genre? The zeitgeist out of which these games were born?

Not really. Most devs are too young to understand the genre. Occasionally there's a game or two that "gets it", but they're few and far between.

SO, the answer? Yes. Lots of new STGs ... few of them worth anyone's time.

[trap15]

On the subject of casual gamers. Lets be realistic, many spouses have nothing in common, or very little to talk about, asides what goes on in the bedroom, or little do together, and while most if not all men, typical ideal views towards women is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoeXh-0QLEs

Most men ( I mean men who are not into videogames at all, or really cares about anything to do with it ) in general see their women like the above example, with sewing, church, photography, illustration, and anything else a woman could hold intrest in. Videogames have become like that, nowadays.

It is like how the television media made fun of synth musicians, or how phucking Marvel ( owned by Disney ) just decided out of nowhere to make the Green Latern a non-heterosexual. People will constantly do things to attack the things we love, and hold holy, like the rainbow, or the color purple, or the rose.

Man, you're fucked. Get help.

[EmperorIng]

STGs ... few of them worth anyone's time.

This is an accurate statement.

[wariomona]

The goal should only be to make shmups more popular than they are. Comparing them to other genres is stupid because that would involve changing what we love.
Whenever I see shmups brought up on a more "mainstream"-oriented website, everyone seems to prefer the euro games like Tyrian 2000. RPG elements are what's "in" now for video games. But do we want shmups to go more typically euro, no! I don't want that! You don't want that!
I repeat, our goal is to beat the "mainstream" kids with full STG force, not appeal to their unmotivated tastes! We must fight for credits, for score-based gameplay, for that delicious adrenaline rush and most importantly for the honorable name and heritage of "Shoot'em up"!

[Kollision]

how phucking Marvel ( owned by Disney ) just decided out of nowhere to make the Green Latern a non-heterosexual.

man, you seriously need to know what you're talking about

[Formless God]

I repeat, our goal is to beat the "mainstream" kids with full STG force, not appeal to their unmotivated tastes! We must fight for credits, for score-based gameplay, for that delicious adrenaline rush

Only rational post in the thread.

[Squire Grooktook]

You want to increase the popularity? Try the Blazblue solution, just add a lot of dialogs/story between the fights/stages. It works perfectly. Thousands of people are going to play the game for the wrong reasons but, who cares, it will be popular.
Shmups Visual Novel, that's the future.

I kinda think this would be interesting. Maybe something like Ginga Force where the game and stages would be really long, but you don't necessarily have to play them all in one sitting.

[pegboy]

It's not like your Casual-FPS, that you can charge with your automatic rifle in the middle of an army. You die, who cares in fact? You will re-start 5 seconds ago.

Rant time! Yeah, this is a pet peeve of mine in modern games. I go friggen nuts when I watch some mongo LP'er clumsily stagger about a level while a half a dozen enemies shoot him, then grumble when a half minute later the enemies finally kill him. Then of course he respawns just before he entered the room. As a game developer, why even allow the player to die at all if you're just going to respawn him in place with no consequences?

If you're going to be that casual about it, just take death out of the game entirely =P.

I agree with you about deaths have exactly zero consequences in modern games today. There is literally no challenge at all with most modern mainstream games. You get infinite lives, infinite continues, save-anywhere at any time, etc. They've basically found a way to take the player completely out of the experience and still call it a video game.

[Laurel_McFang]

You want to increase the popularity? Try the Blazblue solution, just add a lot of dialogs/story between the fights/stages. It works perfectly. Thousands of people are going to play the game for the wrong reasons but, who cares, it will be popular.
Shmups Visual Novel, that's the future.

I kinda think this would be interesting. Maybe something like Ginga Force where the game and stages would be really long, but you don't necessarily have to play them all in one sitting.

1. The BlazBlue VN segments... Ahh well I haven't finished any of them. The challenges are what attract me. I am not so sure people buy that game for the VN style story lines. Especially because the anime ranked didn't it?

2. A shmup with a lot of storyline? That reminds me of Sine Mora. Did love the story in that one.

[Squire Grooktook]

You want to increase the popularity? Try the Blazblue solution, just add a lot of dialogs/story between the fights/stages. It works perfectly. Thousands of people are going to play the game for the wrong reasons but, who cares, it will be popular.
Shmups Visual Novel, that's the future.

I kinda think this would be interesting. Maybe something like Ginga Force where the game and stages would be really long, but you don't necessarily have to play them all in one sitting.

I am not so sure people buy that game for the VN style story lines

The fighting game fans bought it for the gameplay, the anime crowd bought it for the visual novel. It's like Touhou in that regard except you don't have to turn to fan fiction to make the story interesting.