Framemeister Transition Screen change.

[Fudoh]

If you combine a XRGB-2 with a VP30/ABT102 combo you end up with about 9ms of total lag.

[juji82]

What I was wondering about it is something cheap, even not perfect of course, before the Framemeister

[BuckoA51]

I don't see why you couldn't chain an XRGB2 before the Framemeister if you wanted to.

[Fudoh]

I don't think you would gain much by doing so. The 480p upscaling of the Mini isn't this great and you maintain the same lag (24ms) you would with 15khz sources.

[BuckoA51]

You would potentially gain compatibility with games that switch 240p->480i on the fly. Potentially, someone would have to check this to be sure of course. Do you have an XRGB2 anywhere Fudoh?

[Fudoh]

But why add the Framemeister ? A XRGB-2 plus VGA to HDMI converter would do the same thing.

No, I don't have a XRGB-2 any longer and don't feel like getting another one just to try this.

[akumajo]

so XRGB2 dont have the same problem likes XRGB3 ? Are you 100% sure ?

Someone said that XRGB2 had the same issue likes XRGB3... it changes all the time... I dont believe it unless you prove it

[Xyga]

Okay so could you guys please help drawing a list of games with nasty transitions to test on the following consoles ?
I'll try everything I can this week-end.
- PS1
- PS2
- GC
- Saturn
- MD/Gen/MCD

Unfortunately both my N64 and SNES are unsusable at the moment (lost N64 cables, and more cable trouble with the SNES).
Also got Famicom & Master system but I don't know if those could help in the testing.
PCengine is far away at a buddy's place.

Currently available flat panel displays:
- Sony W6
- Belinea 2080 S2

Currently available scalers/doublers:
- XRGB-2
- XRGB-3
- Comm-Tec UP 1280 FD
- Vigatec Dune F with old shitty firmware and not working right anyway
- DVDO VP30 + ABT102 with latest firmware
- DVDO EDGE non-Green with latest firmware
- GBS8220
- Hd Box Pro ... er, out of order
- Hori Upscan Converter 2

[akumajo]

the most horrible game to play for me is biohazard 2 nintendo 64 with ram pack
resolution change if you switch from game to inventory

you can also try 240p-test-suite on dreamcast

[BuckoA51]

But why add the Framemeister ? A XRGB-2 plus VGA to HDMI converter would do the same thing.

If it's anything like the XRGB3, that just flat out wont work on most TV's.

Okay so could you guys please help drawing a list of games with nasty transitions to test on the following consoles ?

That'll be a fun experiment I think the last game I encountered that did it to an annoying degree was Micro Machines V3 on the PS1. On the Saturn, Radiant Silvergun does it on the title screen, but it's not that annoying since it doesn't happen in game. Virtua Fighter 2 I think does it going from character select to main game.

[Fudoh]

If it's anything like the XRGB3, that just flat out wont work on most TV's.

this possibly depends on the source system connected. I just recently went through half a dozen VGA to HDMI converters with the XRGB-3 (SNES as a source) and it worked fawlessly with every single converter.

[Fudoh]

PS2: EPSGaluda & DDPDOJ - just go into the options menu and switch between Yoko & Tate.

[BuckoA51]

this possibly depends on the source system connected. I just recently went through half a dozen VGA to HDMI converters with the XRGB-3 (SNES as a source) and it worked fawlessly with every single converter.

Have to say that does surprise me. I will have to grab one of those converters and try that myself at some point.

[Xyga]

Thanks !

Forgot I have a DC as well so I'll add the 240p test suite to the list.

I can begin the testing on Friday.

- Micro Machines V3
- Radiant Silvergun title screen
- EPSGaluda & DDPDOJ switch btw yoko & tate
- VF2 character select
- 240p test suite on DC
- Sonic 2 two player split-screen mode
- Silent Hill menus & map

If you can think of other games...

[BuckoA51]

Sonic and Knuckles is it? The one with the 2 player mode, on the MD.

[Xyga]

I think you mean Sonic 2.

EDIT: added.

[ryu]

isn't sonic 3 the one with splitscreen multiplayer?

PS1: silent hill (maps and menues in 480i)

edit: i take that back, didn't know sonic 2 had a similar multiplayer mode

[Xyga]

IIRC Sonic and & Sonic Knuckles 2p vs mode is 240p (or 224p dunno) with tiny sprites.

[broken harbour]

Doesn't Battle Garegga switch resolutions if you change the options menu to english?

Killer Instinct on N64 I think swaps 240p/480i quite a bit. (If I recall what I read a few weeks back.)

[cfx]

.

[EmperorZelos]

Is there any device that can turn 240P and make it 480i without any significant lag? I want just some thing inbetween the game and the framemeister

[Fudoh]

no dedicated device, but a few DVD/HDD recorders do this when a signal is passed through them.

[EmperorZelos]

no dedicated device, but a few DVD/HDD recorders do this when a signal is passed through them.

oh? such as?

[Fudoh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGeDS0cr7o8

check the video description.

[Xyga]

Okay so here are the first results, this stuff is kind of time-consuming so I quickly gave up on testing with games and switched to the 240p Test Suite on a DC with scart rgb out (much more convenient).

I miss a few cables and converters to be able to put everything to test, so for now it's only:
XRGB-2
XRGB-3
Comm-Tec UP 1280
- VGA direct to lcd monitor Belinea 2080 S2
- Via VP30 HDMI to Sony W6

Turned out I was wrong about the XRGB-2 always being able to do immediate transitions by itself (well... you'll see), in the end to make sure you really have to push the thing, experiencing issues or not while playing casually doesn't show the bad stuff (or it does but you won't necessarily notice).

NB: I did several rounds with and without v-sync or time compensation options where available. None made a noticeable difference.
Only the VP30's unlocked output turned out to be necessary.

First setup: DC (scart) > XRGB2 > LCD Monitor (vga)
Screenshot: http://i62.tinypic.com/avk090.jpg
01:14
02:07
00:23
02:02
00:21
02:03
00:21
02:07
00:21
02:15
Gave it several rounds with similar results. Sometimes it's almost immediate (at 00:21 you can barely notice a black screen 'flash'), sometimes it lags a bit (02:**) and it is noticeable. Not really a problem if it's just to visit some option menu screen, it didn't really bother me with Silent Hill (option & map screens).
Now I can picture this to be a real problem in the middle of an action game/sequence.

Second setup: DC (scart) > XRGB3 > LCD Monitor (vga)
Screenshot: http://i62.tinypic.com/33ykltz.jpg
02:13
02:03
02:04
02:06
02:04
02:04
02:03
02:05
02:18
No noticeable speed variations in the XRGB3's behaviour... bearable if it's not in the middle of action.

Third setup: DC (scart) > UP 1280 > LCD Monitor (vga)
Screenshot: http://i58.tinypic.com/2n0r5o4.jpg
00:22
03:38
00:16
03:49
00:25
03:32
00:17
03:32
00:16
03:35
Well that was unexpected, the UP 1280 behaves a bit like the XRGB2, only the long transitions are really annoying. 03:** is really too much.

Fourth setup: DC (scart) > XRGB2 > VP30 > Sony W6 (hdmi)
Screenshot: http://i60.tinypic.com/2wgi42s.jpg
00:07
00:08
00:05
00:06
00:05
00:02
00:05
00:07
00:06
The fastest setup. I was able to push the button repeatedly without having to wait for the picture to come back.
Black screen does happen, but so fast that you could say it just flickers.
NOTE: This only works with VP30's unlocked output !
With 60Hz locked output transitions are much longer and signal is unstable.

Fifth setup: DC (scart) > XRGB3 > VP30 > Sony W6 (hdmi)
Screenshot: http://i57.tinypic.com/2gxgvlt.jpg
00:45
00:46
00:42
00:45
00:41
00:45
00:40
00:44
00:41
Below 01:** and steady, but not as fast as the previous setup. Black sreens are noticeable, very quick, but noticeable.
NOTE: Again this only works with VP30's unlocked output !

Sixth setup: DC (scart) > UP 1280 > VP30 > Sony W6 (hdmi)
Screenshot: http://i61.tinypic.com/qx9qnm.jpg
00:29
04:13
00:22
04:10
00:23
04:08
00:20
04:15
00:44
Okay so that was awful, the long transitions became even longer and the VP30 was losing the signal. Out.


Conclusion of first round of testing: I'm gonna grab a beer now.
*gulps*
So yeah the only thing that was fast enough not to interrupt gameplay right in the middle of action was the XRGB2/VP30 combo (but only with unlocked output ).
It's too bad the XRGB2 alone cannot do 00:20 all the time, I just don't know why sometimes it takes more time... never noticed before, which is why I believed it was okay.
Only game I tried is Silent Hill (ntsc), funny thing is if the timings match what you have just read, the black screens do not necessarily happen at the same places/times.
For instance on the XRGB2 (without VP30) the black screen happened only when getting out of the option menu or map, On the XRGB3 there were black screens both while getting in and out.
So it's a bit early to tell this but I guess it also depends on how the transition is brought by the game and how each scaler will handle it.

I'd like to try the same stuff with the EDGE but I need to build a cable first. Wonder if this will work okay with locked output this time...
I also want to try the Hori Upscan Converter 2 but I think it handles everything as 480i so I don't even know if it's worth the try.

[akumajo]

Thanks for sharing, interesting numbers.

Two things about VP30.
First, as far I remember unlocking frame rate increase input lag.
Second, I didnt need to unlock frame rate on my setup. I will retry to confirm that. Also, my benchmark is not the same as yours (n64 + pak + biohazard 2).

[Fudoh]

thanks as well !

Yes, unlocking the output on the VP30 boosts the lag by nearly 3 frames.

Short/not-so-short transitions: as you can see on XRGB-2 the transitions from 240p to 480i are fast, but the ones from 480i to 240p are slower. One time the first line is shifted to the right, the other time to the left. I guess one just throws the processor more off than the other.

With the VP30 buffering so many frames in unlocked state and by watching the cadence (repeated frames) it's likely just able to compensate for whatever the XRGB-2 does on the input.

Requirement for unlocking: that's certainly partly the TV's fault. On my VP30 setup it changed with the source as well. With a NES or SNES through the XRGB I could not keep it locked, while it worked with other sources.

[Xyga]

I see.

I'll try with the VP30 outputing RGBHV to my monitor and locked output to see if it works fine.
But I'm short a BNC>DB15 cable so it will have to wait until I get another one.

And of course other sources !

[ryu]

i think just using the vp30 for 15khz might actually wield the same results as having an xrgb-2 in-between...

in any case, when i played silent hill directly through my vp30 i also noticed that 240p to 480 transitions were quick, but the other way around was a nightmare. i also had the sync problems when using locked framerate output. didn't test unlocked though

[Fudoh]

yes, somebody mentioned it before. But then again the VP30 does not recognize 240p, but just handles it as 480i.