Arcade Sticks VS Gamepads. + What makes a quality Stick?

[Sinful]

Hey, what about button tapping in a shmup and fire rates + consistent fire rates? I always put off tapping in shumps for the most part cause it really only seemed more proper for AC Sticks? And well, playing on a AC Stick now, it sure seems like I was right? (+ more fun or actually fun!) What you guys say?

For peak fire rate, I think I can hit both equal with just one button being pressed (no double button alternating trick)? Though I'm not as sure about endurance wise?

From what I've seen from fighting games, the absolute hardest techniques to master on a pad take maybe 1 extra month before you can do them consistently on a pad...which isn't that much of a big deal when you might be putting years into mastering a game or the genre. 1 extra month isn't what I'd call "varrying greatly".

That's just one move/technique/combo/whatever. And I still like to fully test & document something more simple as this too. And for something more simple, an extra month difference seems pretty great to me? But this still leaves me with some questions + how well and controlled was the test, and so on. But I'll except this as a good start.

But how about consistently dodging & performing very well at very complicated & fast bullet patterns of a higher loop in a bullet hell shmup? Then adapting to other games in same genre, the other genres, and such.

Then there is the quality of the gamepad & sticks too. Both have to be top notch & well documented. And so on.

And relearning an entire new control method after using the other one for your whole life usually takes at least 3 monthes. If you're going for time, logistically it seems like one would be better off just sticking with whatever control method they already love IMO.

No. I can never except this line of thinking for anything. I always have to test everything to make sure I'm not wasting my time with the worst and only with the best. Weird OCD thing, I guess? But yeah. It's how I am on the matter. Always on the lookout for the most efficient ways of doing things, always.

Not with keyboards, that's why keyboards are master race

We're talking about typing devices now...

[Ghegs]

No. I can never except this line of thinking for anything. I always have to test everything to make sure I'm not wasting my time with the worst and only with the best. Weird OCD thing, I guess? But yeah. It's how I am on the matter. Always on the lookout for the most efficient ways of doing things, always.

Then you should quit worrying about your input method and start playing the games, because that's more efficient in actually getting good results. There is no magical controller that will make you a good player, it comes with practice, practice, and more practice. Knowing the game, its quirks, stage layouts, enemy patterns, behavior, etc, is what really matters. The choice of controller much less so. If your main goal is to get good at a game, and you're going to spend countless hours/days/weeks/years getting people involved as test subjects, running tests, comparing results, defending your paper against a council...then that's the real waste of time.

[Squire Grooktook]

That's just one move/technique/combo/whatever. And I still like to fully test & document something more simple as this too. And for something more simple, an extra month difference seems pretty great to me? But this still leaves me with some questions + how well and controlled was the test, and so on. But I'll except this as a good start.

The point is, that "one move" is quite probably the hardest possible thing you can do on a pad. If you can learn to do that consistently on a pad, than you pretty much have it made and can do anything on a pad. Furthermore like I said, if you're going to spend 10 years in shmups trying to become the world record holder, than 1 extra month to completely master your control method isn't exactly a huge loss.

Anyway, if you're looking for irrefutable proof, you're probably not going to find it. The thing is that anything that can be done with one control method can be done with the other two as far as I know. So the only questions remaining are "how long did it take" or "how hard was it". Both of these are going to vary drastically based on the persons in question (let's not forget that different people often learn and improve at different rates), and even more so based on their own personal opinions on what counts as "hard".

There have been some pretty logical and convincing arguments made that sticks are very slightly superior to pads, or at least easier to learn in some ways, those are what tend to convince me. But as for tests... in this context those are no different from anecdotal evidence, which is what we've been talking this whole time.

Ps: Since we're talking controlled tests, and the question is regarding how long it takes to master something on pad vs stick...how exactly would you test that? By all accounts it can take years to even approach mastery of a genre. How exactly would you keep someone in a controlled test environment for that long?

[CaptainAhab]

As someone who started playing video games in the early 2000s, I figured I should just go with a pad because that is what I have been used to for video games for many years -- I have been in maybe three or four arcades in my life.

However, I complained to a number of friends who enjoy fighting games about constant thumb soreness (I have monster hands), and they recommended I try an arcade stick so a lot of pressure is not on my thumb making small precise movements, but rather, on my entire wrist. With that in mind, now the only question is which stick. $100 seems really steep but it is what it is I guess.

I feel like some of one's decision should be based on comfort as well. I know it is a pretty huge factor in my decision, and I'm sure it is for others out there too -- whether comfort means physicality, mentality, etc.

[Sinful]

Then you should quit worrying about your input method and start playing the games, because that's more efficient in actually getting good results. There is no magical controller that will make you a good player, it comes with practice, practice, and more practice. Knowing the game, its quirks, stage layouts, enemy patterns, behavior, etc, is what really matters. The choice of controller much less so. If your main goal is to get good at a game, and you're going to spend countless hours/days/weeks/years getting people involved as test subjects, running tests, comparing results, defending your paper against a council...then that's the real waste of time.

Oh, I play games, games alright. Proabbaly more then you? Gaming & gaming realted stuff (like this forum, researching for more games to play, organizing my rom folders, organizing my games shelf, going to my local trading game store right after boxing everyday to make sure nothing big slips by, etc, etc.) is just about all I freakin do. And I do game a lot too, not just collect & write shit reviews about games barely touch like everybody else on the dam net does. But that alone don't fix my OCD behaviour of finding & testing the best, easiest & most fun ways to get things done in life. It's not just in games. It's in everything I do in life, really. I always have to find the most efficient ways of doing things. This OCD behavious really dirves me nuts cause just about nobody is a perfectionist and seeing how nobody puts any thought into even the simplest of things drives me off the wall!!!.. Ahem. Yes, I have to surpress these feeling around others too, otherwise I'll drive em nuts too. ... "Hey you! What's the matter?! You watch to many dam Flinstones cartoons? Shut the dam door behind you & take those ugly muddy shoes off!... ahem.. er, don't move. I'll do it all for you. "

Oh, and I actually LOVE comparing ports of games too + really going into great detail about it too. But I actually really love doing this... wait... I love doing all of this doing stuff I do?! So yeah, it's no work on my end. But fun, fun, fun in the sun!

As someone who started playing video games in the early 2000s, I figured I should just go with a pad because that is what I have been used to for video games for many years -- I have been in maybe three or four arcades in my life.

However, I complained to a number of friends who enjoy fighting games about constant thumb soreness (I have monster hands), and they recommended I try an arcade stick so a lot of pressure is not on my thumb making small precise movements, but rather, on my entire wrist. With that in mind, now the only question is which stick. $100 seems really steep but it is what it is I guess.

I feel like some of one's decision should be based on comfort as well. I know it is a pretty huge factor in my decision, and I'm sure it is for others out there too -- whether comfort means physicality, mentality, etc.

Well, how you know your wrist won't be an issue either? ... You can't. So you gots to try it.

At first playing with a stick you'll feel like a dam drunk playing games. Nothing will feel tight & precise at all. So the urge to say "Screw this" will be very strong. Why you're gonna right off the bat have to make a serious commitment to stick to it for quite sometime, otherwise it'll only end up being a dust collector like mine was for the longest time (well, I kept it covered). But in the end, you may end up liking playing with a stick a lot more? And if not, well, now you know for sure.

[chempop]

At first playing with a stick you'll feel like a dam drunk playing games. Nothing will feel tight & precise at all. So the urge to say "Screw this" will be very strong.

Haha, so true! At least it was for me. I went straight back to using a pad for years. Then I attempted the leap when I got a JPN 360 and HRAP-EXSE. Huge difference compared to the janky saturn stick I had bought before, I fell into the groove after a month or so of practice. Haven't looked back ever since.

[quash]

What makes a quality stick is weight, something no commercial arcade stick (with the only exception of the VSHG) has gotten right.

Thankfully, it's easy enough to buy adhesive lead/steel weights and stick them all around the inside of your stick. My HRAP weighs a ton, probably 15 lbs or so lol. Also, adhesive felt for the bottom if you're like me and use your stick on your lap.

[Aquas]

The Hori Soul Calibur V stick is heavier than most (8.6 pounds) and I use it on my lap. I recommend it. The Hori VX-SA on the other hand is quite light (4 pounds). I own them both. Best of both worlds.

As for the cost of a quality stick, well, it's worth it. Just make sure you're gonna play some damn games.

[emphatic]

If an arcade stick is too light it can quite easily be weighed down by putting rolls of coins, metal washers or whatever inside the casing.

[Formless God]

I personally find it hard to [...] quickly switch to opposites

How come? You have one finger for each direction. It's as quickly as lifting one finger and depressing the other. Heck, you can even switch to right while moving left (compared to dragging the analog/stick all the way from one side to another.)

Always on the lookout for the most efficient ways of doing things, always.

I appreciate your enthusiasm but in this case there isn't one.

what if prometheus had played with an arcade stick from the very beginning? Would he have done even better scores and runs?

It's simple. Look for a player who a) uses stick b) has the same playtime as him.

[Sinful]

You know, I'm quit shocked to hear many play with their sticks in their lap... er yeah, think about it. ... I did it cause I really didn't feel I had a choice since I lay lenghwise on a bed for all my gaming & PC needs. Figured since most gamers I assume play from a chair or a couch that they'd for sure have it on a table setup so that it don't budge. Hence the weigths idea. But no, folks still put a ton of weights in it + slap that heavy beast in their lap too?! That even comfortable?

I appreciate your enthusiasm but in this case there isn't one.

I can't base it on just the little eveidence brought on in this topic or anywhere else I've seen. So sorry. The testing must go on or at least not come to conclusions based on just little eveidence & assumptions. It's just not the way humanity made huge leaps in advancements to where we are today. What you're saying is the same thing as telling that buddy who assumed the world is round to stop thinking crazy and play more in a wonderful flat world. Er, no.

And if I'm still having fun + actually playing games, then what's it matter? I get my cake & eat it too. ... But yay, many folks sure are very easily satisfied on matters like this & stuff, like I've said... good thing there still some folks like Randorama & his super detailed/all out guides (see how it can be a very good thing?).

[Obiwanshinobi]

Right bottom triggers of PlayStation pads (before DS3 anyway) are good for tapping. The inability to map fire onto R2 in Baraduke is the worst thing about that port. Liked Baraduke better with a stick (even though it wasn't a good one), but that was just liking. I have no evidence I performed any better one way or another. Fun factor, however, is the only one that matters here. You need to enjoy playing games to practice a lot.

[Aquas]

You know, I'm quit shocked to hear many play with their sticks in their lap... er yeah, think about it. ... I did it cause I really didn't feel I had a choice since I lay lenghwise on a bed for all my gaming & PC needs. Figured since most gamers I assume play from a chair or a couch that they'd for sure have it on a table setup so that it don't budge. Hence the weigths idea. But no, folks still put a ton of weights in it + slap that heavy beast in their lap too?! That even comfortable?

At first I couldn't quite do it and played with a stick setup on a table. But after a couple years of playing Street Fighter 4 with stick in lap got me used to it. I was reluctant to play STG on my lap but now it's no big deal at all and is my preferred way because I don't have a good way to set something up on a table. Heavier stick probably helps in the lap, but 15 pounds would be too heavy on the lap for me! You know, your ass might start hurting after a 2 hour session.

[Formless God]

What you're saying is the same thing as telling that buddy who assumed the world is round to stop thinking crazy and play more in a wonderful flat world.

Whoa, you are blowing this way out of proportion.

Keyboard: Dodonpachi WR 2-ALL.
Stick: Dodonpachi WR 2-ALL.

Hence they are all the same shit. When it comes to performance, the eyes and hands matter more than the input device. There does not exist a magical tool that suddenly gives you a huge advantage over the other players. Go and beat PROMETHEUS by yourself using something other than a keyboard and I will admit to being a close-minded ape.

[Sinful]

Your still not looking at it from a much bigger perspective, like it usually always is. There really are a lot more variables to this then what many may think. And quite a few that wouldn't even cross anyone's mind to begin with.

Anyone took science class in High School? You know, where you learn about doing a hypothesis, how you'd go about to prove/test it, what you think the results would end up like, then doing the experiment while writing down everything that happens, and finally you writing your concludsion. Anybody remember this?

[trap15]

Yes, how about you actually do it instead of babbling incessantly about things that people don't care about.

[drauch]

Your still not looking at it from a much bigger perspective, like it usually always is. There really are a lot more variables to this then what many may think. And quite a few that wouldn't even cross anyone's mind to begin with.

Anyone took science class in High School? You know, where you learn about doing a hypothesis, how you'd go about to prove/test it, what you think the results would end up like, then doing the experiment while writing down everything that happens, and finally you writing your concludsion. Anybody remember this?

God, shut up and just fucking play.

[RegalSin]

Arcade sticks are just novelties, and for hardcore arcade players. I have a couple console to Arcade, I don't know how they are nowadays, but again, these are novelties.

They were was always hard on my hands. I would hold that ball and press the buttons with precision, not realizing I was giving my palm a workout? Like how sitting on the ground or floor might annoy, like standing up for long periods of times. Being older now it still feels the same way.

You can build you own stick, as somebody mentioned. Not big of a deal, Their is all kinds mechanisms.

Game controllers are much more relaxed compared to sticks.

Again it is more about just playing the game.

[Squire Grooktook]

I'm still not getting what kind of "tests" Sinful wants, especially considering the topic is reaching mastery with control set ups.

Kind of a funny thought to imagine a bunch of stereotypical scientists in labcoats sitting behind glass watching two people play Dodonpachi for 5 years to see who can reach a world record score first. Not to mention even that wouldn't really prove anything since there would still be a lot of "variables" with each player that you couldn't know about.

Like I said, you can't really "prove" something like this. The best you can do is anecdotes.

[gray117]

- And what makes a quality Arcade Stick? I heard someone say they only had the new Street Fighter IV Arcade Stick then when they bought a certain Japanese brand Arcade stick, it was way better and made the SF one seem like crap by comparison? Why? What made it better? Is there less play in the actual stick itself (so to move right in a shmup, you barely have to move the physical stick to the right to trigger that movement)? Ditto for the buttons. Does the weight of it all matter much? etc.

Assuming you've got your preferred stick and buttons type it's basically build quality and stability. Generally for most people that's weight and proportions - can be effected by the surface your planning on using - eg. table/lap. Generally people want more weight and wider stick to help keep it stable - something at odds with usual retailing/packaging/shipping wants

I don't think anyone's going to call the recent 'street fighter tournament edition stick' crap - unless they talking specifically about seimitsu rather than sanwa stock stick preference - in which case their talking about a small [but perhaps important to some] play in the stick]. Beware the over the top wording of some forum opinions

The white, boxier 'street fighter fight stick' maybe called a crap sf stick, and maybe even some are referring to the old happ style xbox original [maybe ps2 too?] sf anniversary stick.

As for manufacturers in this game there's really madcatz, hori, qanba and razer that spring to mind....

...So I'd assume the references to a japanese manufacturer is going to be hori - and likely also some of their premium priced limited edition releases, but again perhaps just their HRAP 'SE' specific variants if people are talking about their preference for seimitsu sticks.

Qanba [presume chinese or hong kong, don't think they are japanese] are popular because they're kind of a custom (or rather under the counter - I don't think they're paying license fees , but off the shelf solution for good multi-format sticks using authentic sanwa parts.

Otherwise, I think you must be talking custom made sticks - for which I'm sure there's many domestic [albeit premium] suppliers as opposed to Japanese [who will be premium too +shipping +taxes].

Upshot - there's no mystery here - standard seimitsu or sanwa parts in a decent case is what you are after. It's a shame these tend to cost you, but it is a niche, large box, build quality focused thing that isn't retailer friendly... Buttons matter less in general, but perhaps note hori tend to swap in their own buttons on their general models - some people have questioned their endurance...

[Sinful]

Hmm, you say the black Tournament Edition SF Stick is the prefered one? And the white SFIV one is the crap one? Seen one of the black ones once... when I see it again I'll give it a quick check (since I'll most likely find it used and untouched at that too, lol).

And yes, little stick movement is very important to me. The white SFIV Stick I have seems to have pretty small movement, but are the sticks with even less movement? And Sanwa makes tight stick movement sticks then? Cause if so, then they look like my #1 choice for import? Also looking for very touchy and little movemt to trigger the buttons. Sanwa a great choice for these too?

Also read quare shape for the outer edge stick movement is better then the other ones too... would't mind trying all either way to see for myself (white SFIV one is square). Gonna be buying a lot of sticks soon (and why not, I'm having much fun with them right now and it it lasts...), so might as well get in some variety too. Plus nothing beats hands on testing things yourself. As folks have a lot of varied & peculiar tates out there, so what may perfect for one person may be totally wrong for another.

I'm gonna mess with customizing things eventually too (not just yet, though), as I doubt I'll find a stick perfectly made for my needs. Plus as I try things out, I'll start discovering what I prefer and not so as to have a better idea on how to customize?


PS - No one answered how Arcade Sticks and buttons where like in Arcades for various STGs yet? Anywhere from mid 80's to around 2000. As these are the STGs I play most. Also for Japan and Overseas. Just pick a game or more you can recall playing at an Arcade and how it felt. Simple. And thanks in advance.

[chempop]

PS - No one answered how Arcade Sticks and buttons where like in Arcades for various STGs yet? Anywhere from mid 80's to around 2000. As these are the STGs I play most. Also for Japan and Overseas. Just pick a game or more you can recall playing at an Arcade and how it felt. Simple. And thanks in advance.

I remember playing 1942 at a Pizza Hut when I was maybe 4 or 5. I could barely reach the controls, but it felt very good. An event burned deep into my memory.

[finisherr]

Pads and sticks are great. Pads are cheaper and you don't have to spend much to get a decent pad. However, pads will have your thumbs hurting and it can be difficult to hold down certain button variations with one thumb as opposed to a few fingers.

Sticks are great because they are very comfortable and accurate. You have to spend a little more to get something decent, but you have the benefit of playing a shooter with the input device naturally made for shooters. If you've ever grown up playing on arcade machines, you will immediately love the experience. I'd say, if the stick isn't sanwa or seimitsu, don't bother. Also, if the stick is less than $100, it's probably isn't made very well.

I'd recommend buying a stick and trying it out, especially if you have $160-200 in your budget. If you don't like it, sell it here in the forum.

[gray117]

And yes, little stick movement is very important to me. The white SFIV Stick I have seems to have pretty small movement, but are the sticks with even less movement? And Sanwa makes tight stick movement sticks then? Cause if so, then they look like my #1 choice for import? Also looking for very touchy and little movemt to trigger the buttons. Sanwa a great choice for these too?

Sanwa sticks are good but seimitsu have an even tighter movement. Given your preferences it sounds like, in an ideal world, you may prefer a seimitsu stick and sanwa buttons.

Did you read my post in: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=47777

Videos of the sticks and buttons that may help you:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Akihabarashopdotjp/videos


Street Fighter sticks:

Bad 'fight stick':
http://www.ps3informer.com/playstation- ... adcatz.png

Good 'tournement edition':
http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/art ... 624507.jpg
or
http://www.ps3attitude.com/wp-content/u ... tstick.jpg
or
http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/art ... 624507.jpg

PS - No one answered how Arcade Sticks and buttons where like in Arcades for various STGs yet? Anywhere from mid 80's to around 2000. As these are the STGs I play most. Also for Japan and Overseas. Just pick a game or more you can recall playing at an Arcade and how it felt. Simple. And thanks in advance.

In the uk we got a mix of Japanese ball top sticks (sanwa/seimitsu style) with convex buttons and american bat top sticks (happ style) with concave buttons. Honestly I remember the beat up/bad machines more :/

However; three good memories I do have was playing r-type at a camp site arcade with happ style controls and just throwing down with them - almost certainly more lucky than skill. A couple of neo geo cabinets which had ball tops but convex buttons - probably my most played cabinets not 'big red' cabinets, most likely some lordsvale/electrocoin makeup - I remember thinking these felt so much better than most other cabinets. Finally no shmups - all fighters - but I played a fair amount on candy cabinets during my university years; all ball tops and convex buttons - probably mostly sanwa, except some super neo cabinets which probably had seimitsu sticks - and it was then that I really thought these felt great: beat the shit out of claw styling playstation pads and was my reason to pick up a namco stick for home use. In all, far more responsive and tactile than my previous frankly slightly spongy memories of arcade games from my youth.

... Nowadays I prefer sanwa sticks and buttons. Whether or not these are accurate equivalents I don't know - probably fairly faithful to my uni years. Anyways, it is how I want to relive what I remember

[Sinful]

@gray117: Yeah, I read those posts there & the other one about customizing. Must of slipped my mind already? And you sure have added a lot of detail too. Here and there.

Thanks for the memory lane trip of yours too. And you too hate the PS style D-Pad. Never heard anyone call them "the claw style" before? I hate them so freakin much since day one of PS1 era. Luckly I bought some spare PSP D-Pad overlays, and now I slap one on my PS3 too. Turns the Sony D-Pad from the worst to like the best. Love it now, but... I want a stick for my PS3 too now.

And crap. I have the bad SFIV Stick. >_< Gonna search real hard for the other one now. One more quick question for you; but what makes this white SFIV one bad? Everything I said I don't want? Or what others don't want?... How much better are the black ones? (Just curious, as I'm very sold on getting the black ones no matter what)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QytcbzZmXaI

No way?! In this vid you pointed me out to, he made the play in the stick so little and so nice. Is this possible for my white SFIV Stick? And where any Arcade Sticks in the Arcade made by default to have this little play in the Stick? Or is the norm always a lot of play in the AC Sticks? Cause if not, dang, I'd almost feel like cheating by having such little play in a stick.

I remember playing 1942 at a Pizza Hut when I was maybe 4 or 5. I could barely reach the controls, but it felt very good. An event burned deep into my memory.

Wow!! What knowledge. And cased closed everyone! Mission is acomplished. I repeat. Return to base. We've got some hot co-co and hot babes awaiting for you's there. ... What? Cocaine & babes instead? Er, sure. Just not a peep to the higher ups.

That's a pretty cool memory trip there too, though. Makes me smile. So mission acomplished indeed.

[emphatic]

And crap. I have the bad SFIV Stick. >_< Gonna search real hard for the other one now. One more quick question for you; but what makes this white SFIV one bad?

There's nothing wrong with that stick, it's just as easy to modify as the larger one. Just stick a Seimitsu LS-58 in it and it's good to go for shmupping.

[gray117]

And crap. I have the bad SFIV Stick. >_< Gonna search real hard for the other one now. One more quick question for you; but what makes this white SFIV one bad?

There's nothing wrong with that stick, it's just as easy to modify as the larger one. Just stick a Seimitsu LS-58 in it and it's good to go for shmupping.

Stock parts make it not so good 'out of the box' - stick in particular is not as good as sanwa. General build is good, but not as good as the TE/black version. However, as emphatic points out, if you are happy with modding and you find it a comfortable size, you can turn it into a good stick by adding your own stick and even buttons should you wish -

Seimistsu example:
http://pineconeattack.com/2009/08/06/ho ... tsu-parts/

Sanwa example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4wDobtOmY0#t=23

^ if you'd want to do the mod as per the video it seems you could certainly modify your white sf stick in this manner - good luck - and no its not cheating; modding is all about not only having it good but also exactly as you want it

[TrevHead (TVR)]

I like those cheaper Madcatz sticks due to their easy moddability and it's size is good for my small desk, I have the Wii T&C version (I payed £18 new) and the 360 Brawlstick (£50 new)which (the latter has atleast) has one or two upgrades to the std SFIVSE which I've heard has a PCB prone to shorting out IIRC.

If I was to buy a 3rd stick however, it would be a Quanba but the Brawlstick are great budget buys if you can find one cheap they only problems is the SS mounting plates don't fit many sticks and there is no PC drivers for it, even if it's fine with MAME

I use a pad for most of my serious shmupping, unless it's Guwange which I can only play with a stick. That said I've a LS-32 in mine which is fine as a general stick but I could do with putting in a LS-56 which is the only other Seimistsu stick that will fit SS plate apart from the LS-40.

It would be nice if there was an addon for the LS-32 which took away the play it has, like a cap for the bottom of it's shaft, or even better have it fit to a hollow shaft.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I feel like some of one's decision should be based on comfort as well. I know it is a pretty huge factor in my decision, and I'm sure it is for others out there too -- whether comfort means physicality, mentality, etc.

I felt tempted to buy a Logitech steering wheel for the GameCube so I could play F-Zero GX (and possibly Burnout 2) without touching the 'Cube pad's triggers. But then I would have to keep it on my lap any my feet on pedals. That would give me too little room for moving my legs mid-run. The way I imagine it, I don't feel like enduring such practice on a daily basis, which would be necessary to get anywhere in such a demanding game. On top of that, I find Burnout 2 perfectly playable on PS2 with a DualShock 2.
All in all, being almost certain that wheel wouldn't be as comfortable to use as I like my console games, I didn't bother trying.

Another aspect of comfort is the storage space. If I had as many arcade sticks and steering wheels as I have joypads, the former would just sit there staring at me most of the time, while spare gamepads rest peacefully in cardboard boxes and closets.
The more tat you collect, the harder it may be to get rid of, so it had better at least not be eyesore.

[Sinful]

Alright, awesome. Lots of options available. But still want to grab the TE one if it's available. And the one mod that really impresses me the moat by far is the one that tightens the stick movement from here on this forum. Though this SF stick I have seems to have little movement by default, I want it less. So hopefully this and the TE SFIV Stick can take those mods? Depending one which size I end up prefering between the two sticks) If not, I'll just order a new Sanwa Joystick part to replace with (or for the white SFIV one, replace no matter what if it turn out much worse then the TE one).



One quick question. It's about my left arm. It's really starting to kill me like hell. If it weren't for some A535 cream and light stretching I did the one day to it to help ease it off, I thought I would of been forced to stop gaming for a bit? But It's not premamently going away, so A535 is a must still. I know I really messed up my shoulders from boxing that I use to help cut up (so bad & tight it got that I could barely bring a barbell press down to my chest + with pain involved). But I took a break from that stuff since middle of December (was gonna start again today but slept in >_>). So I'm guessing I still might me really tight in my arms? Bicep too (fun fact; Bicep muscle contribute to turning your writs. I knew this since I include wrist turning into my biscep workouts). At first I thought I sleep wrong one day + being tight from gym, but then it hit me. The Arcade Stick!! Even if it s damage from before, the Stick is without a doubt adding to it. Any of you guys notice it? Or is it exclusive to the position I use when I play with it? (ie. I lay flat on a bed with 3 pillows holding my head & part of bacb up, and with AC Stick in my lap angled by a bit toward me by two towels. One for each leg)