Shmups where recovery after dying is annoying/too difficult

[alpachinko]

Of all the games for me it has to be Darius 2 and Gradius games. Make a stupid mistake on either and I can never seem to recover from them.

[Sinful]

It all depends on the Gradius game in question. Some of them have unwinnable recoveries, some don't. Some are pretty fun even when you're fully powered up, some aren't.

No. All Gradius games are recoverable, with the exception that with part III you have to be insanely good. I'm just a shmup newb, and even newer when playing the Gradius games at full steam ahead, and I can make all these recoveries outside of part III. If you can't, you're not trying and giving it enough of a chance. Which I can understand, as you have to be in a certain mood to really enjoy doing recoveries, something even I'm not always in the mood for as sometimes when I die in these games I just reset too, lol.

But yeah, remember reading HG101 article on part II and he said if you die on the second part of the Crystal stage you might as well restart all over. BS. I wish BS like this would stop cause it's based on taking out of your ass (what that Kurt guy does best, which is why is annoys me at times, cause his articles read like he don't even play the games at all even at times + why's he doing so many shmups & Arcade games when he clearly not a shmup fan at all & finds all AC games way too hard?). Cause I almost believed it until one day I decided to try it for myself, and yep, once I figured out what to do, not that hard at all. ProTip; don't pull a Rambo with a pea shooter breaking all them ice chunck into even more ice chunks to avoid. So see? You just have to use you head. There's always an answer. And that falling ceiling bit in the last stage? I figured it out on my first try.


I even loved proving wrong that Fatty Glutton in Darius 1 can be beatin with a lazer. I mean, it sure seemed impossible for quite some time, to the point where I almost folded myslef, but not giving up showed a pretty easy solution. And the feeling from overcoming what seems inmpossible is such a great feeling. One of the best things about playing shmups/videogames. If anyone don't get it yet, I hope they do one day.

[Chaos Phoenixma]

are there vids for the recoveries in III or the other Gradius games?

And I would agree with second half of the Gradius II Crystal stage. There's a bit of RNG with how those things bounce, and you can't really destroy them easily in a recovery state. Obviously you'd only want to get rid of the easier to destroy stuff but yeah be careful with it. Most of the loop 1 checkpoints in that game seem doable consistently though. The second half of that crystal stage is recoverable, but it feels luck based due to the random bouncing.

[saucykobold]

The randomness makes that second-to-last ice block checkpoint tricky. If you can make it to the small ceiling, try to stay just under it since the ice can't seem to get you there.

are there vids for the recoveries in III or the other Gradius games?

Gradius
Gradius II pt1, pt2
Gradius III

[jepjepjep]

I find the Moai stage much harder to recover from in Gradius 2.

[Sinful]

I find the Moai stage much harder to recover from in Gradius 2.

What, what?! That's where all the fun is in that game! ... But seriously, last time I made some recoveries in that stage, I had a freakin blast. ... Is it too hard? It seemed just right, I thought? ... Wait, I actually fired up that game to see how it looks on the big screen and made it all the way to the Moi stage... and died. ... I, uh, also turned the game off too. *cough* (Must of been in full out Darius 2 mode? My current mission >_<;;)... ... Try Part IV Moi first, and you'll for sure change your tune. (That stage always bullies me to the front... and is quite scary! Maybe too scary? ... Would you believe part IV is also Gradius fans fave Moi stage?)

[Despatche]

if you die in gradius ii crystal stage you still may as well restart because then the game stops being fun. what's the point in going on, even in an actual arcade with a line waiting behind you?

the original gradius and gradius gaiden are probably the only games in the series that are actually balanced. the only reason gradius iii is even interesting to people is because they've turned trying to recover in any given situation into a little game of its own.

Touhou

no. sometimes, dying is required/helpful; all the time, dying doesn't really hurt you.

[Squire Grooktook]

I recovered from Gradius II's Moai stage blind, so it's not that bad.

The crystal recovery is pretty fun...but fat chance getting through it.

[Sinful]

if you die in gradius ii crystal stage you still may as well restart because then the game stops being fun. what's the point in going on, even in an actual arcade with a line waiting behind you?

I already said the Crystal stage is very doable. Just don't shoot for the most part, unless you really need to/can keep it under control, and only dodge for the most part. Quite simple, really, just required some brain power. Cause this stupid noob managed this it in his uber shmup prime form with zero doging skills to boot (I've noticed I've improved a lot in a very short time frame since), and much easier then dodging bullets in a bullet hell. The only really hard part is at the very start if you want to grab all powereups, as that requires some trial and error to get down. But I'm pretty sure you're fine with just that one speed up and not a speed up + missile which can be possible if you died with a powerup icon highlighted. Cause I think I recal this being one part where I wanted my missile and fire buttons separated? So yeah, once I figured out not to shoot, I was shocked that I basically was able to pull it off almost right away (like 2nd or 3rd try, no joke). And pissed at that HG101 article for saying it's a must restart. >_< So at least try before giving up because "oh, it's Gradius. They're all BS/unfair except Gaiden. Gaiden is for bitches." I say what you once said to me "play Arcade games, they're real games." Or am I twisting the words too much? Meh, I'm just having fun joking around a bit. All good, cause it melts the ice. ... But heck, am I on the right forum here? People do just as much bitching about fine enough balanced games as elsewhere? Then there is a high score table with an insanely high auto fire rate "cheat code" too, which I really had to see to believe (gonna start a separate topic for this soon).

Hmm? Think getting though the Crystal stage via recovery was what made me figure out the super fast point blank Crystal Boss safe spot now that I think about it? What else was I gonna do?... And in Japan Gradius games didn't have continues until part IV, so nothing wrong with at least trying with what lives you've got left. And, there's still Arcades outside of Japan that's not Dance, Dance Revo?

the only reason gradius iii is even interesting to people is because they've turned trying to recover in any given situation into a little game of its own.

Oh, I love Gradius III AC. My fave shmup ever!!! And I still haven't learned how to recover in that game yet (basically one death = me hitting reset every single time). Made it all the way to Cube Rush on Normal. So your wrong. But nice guess.

[jepjepjep]

I find the Moai stage much harder to recover from in Gradius 2.

What, what?! That's where all the fun is in that game! ... But seriously, last time I made some recoveries in that stage, I had a freakin blast. ... Is it too hard? It seemed just right, I thought? ... Wait, I actually fired up that game to see how it looks on the big screen and made it all the way to the Moi stage... and died. ... I, uh, also turned the game off too. *cough*

I'm pretty much in agreement with you. I think the ice stage isn't too bad once you figure out to not shoot the big blocks. The Moai stage is hard because they can flood the screen with rings. I don't think it's impossible or unfair, but just difficult. I haven't spent much time with III, but IV is awesome. The bubbles are much harder than the ice crystal stage in 2.

[MSZ]

I haven't spent much time with III, but IV is awesome. The bubbles are much harder than the ice crystal stage in 2.

GIV in some ways is even harder than III. The bubble stage is a perfect example.(also the cell stage, soooo fucking brutal.)

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

Raiden DX, Hotdog Storm, U.N. Defense Force: Earth Joker, and pretty much all the last levels of the Sonic Wings games and Shienryu.

[Neo Bliss]

Also, Pulstar with manual fire is game over if you lose a life.

I had this game in mind as well when reading through this thread. Really enjoy this game but as soon as I die for the first time I'm always tempted to hit the reset button and start again. Without the power ups the game goes from manageable to frustrating. Probably why I don't often see beyond the 3rd or 4th stage.

[Koa Zo]

Gaiares is one I'm struggling with presently. Not all of the checkpoints are difficult to recover from, but a few are quite annoying.
Most annoying of all is that the pace of the game is so uneven. Some deaths will put you at a checkpoint like 5 minutes back from where you died and it just gets so boring replaying those sections over and over again.

[Crafty+Mech]

Gun Frontier

Awesome when you restart from a checkpoint with the default weapon.

[Sinful]

I haven't spent much time with III, but IV is awesome. The bubbles are much harder than the ice crystal stage in 2.

GIV in some ways is even harder than III. The bubble stage is a perfect example.(also the cell stage, soooo fucking brutal.)

Yes, it seems harder to me too. Main reason is that you can't rely as much on memorization. Part IV was made with even more focus toward the spontanious. And that bubble/ice level is a perfect example of this... I actually love this stage. But man, after a long enough break and coming back to it, it so kicked my butt. I also thought the boss was too nuts too at one point. But very beatable after a recovery too. Just took quite a few tries to get a feel for it. I think part IV is the most refined classic Gradius. Too bad it's so underrated (it also changes level layouts for the most levels in the second loop. ie. first half of volcano level is much longer in loop 2. Something I missed a lot since it was pitifully short in loop 1, as it's a fave return theme of mine, and glad they big time fixed it's length for loop 2).

ProTip; each death in Gradius IV contributes to rank drop. But rank is overall the most evil in this one since it adopts the "longer you live" rule from Arcade Parodius games. So another reason it may be the hardest if you're going for a 1cc or especially a no miss run.

[Sugar Rush Games]

Not really a popular title, but Phalanx is very stingy with power-ups (most only come at the beginning of a stage) and many of the enemies / bosses are absolute bullet sponges when you are left with the default pea shooter.

[To Far Away Times]

From my experience, the original R-Type and R-Type II punish you way too hard for dying. Especially if you lose the bits around your ship.

And the Darius games. Losing your shot power in those games is brutal.

[Sinful]

From my experience, the original R-Type and R-Type II punish you way too hard for dying. Especially if you lose the bits around your ship.

I always thought dieing in R-Type didn't seem too bad as you don't really lose that much, compared to other shooters like the one you mentioned, Darius II/Force (you don't lose all for all others). But this "don't die in Darius" is still a very strong factor for all of them. Probably why they takes so long to get into & why it's not so popular? Though once you get into it, it's hori heaven. ... Even in the Gradius series it feels like you lose way more stuff? And it does all add up. R-Type more popular > Gradius > Darius. ... That and the charge shot adds extra appeal too for R-Type + makes you not feel as naked/powerless. You also get you're first major poweup back ASAP too. And it let's you continue forever (though if you were to refuse continues... ).

PS; my experience with R-Type ain't so hot. So I guess don't take what I said too seriously. Only beat R-Type Delta via credit feeding, though if it wasn't for figuring an unorthadox recovery method for stage 6, it would of been way, way too hard. Like "I'm a give up" hard. Got stuck in recovery hell for R-Type 1 stage 7. And demotivated in R-Type II stage 4 boss checkpoint... same deal for Final's vagina boss. Other then these mentioned parts, I guess it was fine enough? I mean, I can't imagine practicing R-Type games if I weren't able to take it checkpoint via checkpoint, at least for first playthrough. Though for Darius II Arcade I'm prefectly fine restarting all over... everytime? ... The powers of Darius are too much to resist... must.. play... more!! There's no turning back now. Leave me be. It's too late for me. "Run! Go! Get to da chopper!" Now to take care of this Darius II alien/beast/thingy. >_<

[Squire Grooktook]

The recoveries in R-Type are deceptively important. You don't think their bad, but sometimes losing your bits or fully powered force pod can make a world of difference.

Part of it is that a lot of people tend to play it as if its Ghouls and Ghosts and credit feed with the checkpoints. If you're actually giong for a 1cc you have to be more mindful of recoveries methinks.

[null1024]

R-Type's recovery is a hell of a lot more manageable than Gradius's at least. Although, losing your bits [especially if you were happily going around with both of them] is hideously painful and makes me want to just stop playing.

[Furry Fox Jet Pilot]

I am going to mention Siter Skain's RefleX, because of the sheer length of the game itself, it's basically a huge endurance challenge. It has to be the longest shmup I've ever played. Recovery after death isn't a problem in this game, because of the fact that there are no power ups.

[gs68]

DDPDOJ isn't as punishing as Darius II and Gradius with powerup loss, but it's still discouraging enough that I'll exclusively use Exy even though she only gets a 2-bomb capacity.

[Emuser]

Rezon, super annoying as shit if you die in stage 4 on the boss.

[gs68]

Gunnail doesn't even let you recover from a hit if you are playing for score, because playing for score means killing off all your shields to max out the multiplier.

And then there's Border Down, which requires you to follow specific Border paths to get the optimium score, leaving no room for hits, but I'm speaking from hearsay since I can't even complete stage 3, so...

[Blinge]

Psikyo: Oh, you want these powerups? To the very top of the screen they go! trollololololol!

Oh man yeah, always happens to me during bosses too. Fuck Psikyo.

And as for Unwinnable recoveries in Gradius? Gradius V - I swear if you have recoveries enabled, on the cell wall in stage 4, there's a restart just before that. The really long cell wall that's approx 3 full screens long while enemies are spawning inside and potentially ramming you. Try getting through that with no powerups at all, I swear it's impossible or just down to blind luck with 9-1 odds against you..

[zaphod]

R-type really has only one truly difficult recovery, and that's the stage 7 final checkpoint.

I die ANYWHERE else, and I can come back. But the second half of stage 7 is the bane of my existence. the ship rush gets me every time.

[To Far Away Times]

R-type really has only one truly difficult recovery, and that's the stage 7 final checkpoint.

I die ANYWHERE else, and I can come back. But the second half of stage 7 is the bane of my existence. the ship rush gets me every time.

That part is so hard without the bit on top. I've never been able to recover from that area.

[Sinful]

Yeah, that's as far as I made it in R-Type Dimemsions. Made it past that ship rush (it eventually stops), but the part after that is pretty retarded hard too without the help of extra powerups. Which for some reason I refused to use the handy "restart level" option because I really wanted to see if I could pull it off for some reason? Spent well over an hour just restarting, dieing right away, restarting, dieing right away, etc. ... am I to become a masochist? Can't see myself as that? Yet here I am playing Darius II every day like some addict... It'll be a relief to get to the much easier Gaiden sans auto cheat & G Darius after this.

[Icarus]

Try playing Pink Sweets at high rank if you want difficult recoveries.