Shmups you really want to like but can't

[trap15]

The rank stuff in YGW games is heavily over-emphasized by non-players. There is really very little you have to do aside from some basic rules like "don't pick up stuff you don't need". The points all come from tricks and keeping a medal chain. Watch replays

[Deca]

Yeah just completely disregard rank initially, the game will kill you often enough as your learning that you won't need to worry about suiciding. People ruin Garegga for themselves by overthinking it and taking advice from people that don't know what they're talking about.

On topic...Progear, Ketsui and Dimahoo.

[stuminator]

I can't seem to find the joy in Battle Garrega. I know I'm playing it wrong (because no one knows how to play it right), and can't get a single extend no matter how much rank wanking I attempt to do.

Batrider is a bit more fun to get in to, despite having the same type of unintuitive scoring system.

I just can't get into Garrega either. Tried several times but I just never enjoy playing it. Though my biggest complaint over the rank is the hard-to-see bullets.

[CIT]

Strikers 1945 series. The music sucks (unforgiveable for a shooter) and shooting stuff never feels awesome since your shot is comparatively weak and enemies don't explode in a loud and impressive way. Also the "collect medals when they flash" system is not fun.

I can't seem to find the joy in Battle Garrega. I know I'm playing it wrong (because no one knows how to play it right), and can't get a single extend no matter how much rank wanking I attempt to do.

Do you know how to do the flamingo trick in stage 2? That's your first extend right there.

[hecheff]

Solar Striker (Game Boy) was one of my earliest (and only) exposures to shmups.
The game itself was pretty decent; typical enemy sequences and power-ups which increased the damage you dished out.

It was only recently that I found the game and and decided to try it out again for old time's sake. Except it didn't have the same impact it did on me before when I only had a limited library of games.
While the game itself still wasn't bad, it just lacked the variety that shmups had that made each playthrough unique; Solar Striker only had firepower upgrades, but nothing for speed, changes in weapons, none of that.

[604_degrees]

Every time I try Battle Garrega I end up feeling myself very bad

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Basically any of Yagawa's stuff. Love the soundtracks, but can't get into the games, I'm just not fond of the punishing you for picking up items thing, the medal chaining where your score will get trashed for dropping so much as one, the bullets sometimes having visibility issues (I generally prefer bright, unrealistic enemy bullets you don't have to strain to see), the lack of boss health bars, etc.

DDP games. I actually do like them in terms of the game itself, but I generally can't be bothered to play them seriously for score, I loathe the super strict chaining. SDOJ's 360 Mode is a lot of fun because it manages to make chaining a lot less difficult aside from generally not getting hit.

[trap15]

I'm just not fond of the punishing you for picking up items thing

It's a very minor punishment. The punishment is only notable when you continuously pick up extra items. The occasional extra shot item isn't going to ruin a run.

the medal chaining where your score will get trashed for dropping so much as one

Hardly trashes a run. So you lose like... .3 mil? to rebuild the chain. Not a lot.

the bullets sometimes having visibility issues

Open your eyes :V I agree that Garegga's are hard to see on stage 1, but past that they're quite visible. Batrider and Bakraid have no such visibility problems.

the lack of boss health bars

Having to pay attention to how much damage you're doing is bad? I don't get it.

[hecheff]

the lack of boss health bars

Having to pay attention to how much damage your doing is bad? I don't get it.

Isn't this normal for non-fighting arcade games in general, let alone shmups?

[Pteriforever]

Hellsinker. It's so unintuitive, and every time I try to play it I just feel like I don't know the rules.

[gs68]

I tried to force myself to like Sine Mora for the sake of a close friend who doesn't understand the backlash.

Meanwhile I don't get the acclaim. I mean, it's pretty, but visuals =/= quality. Awkward controls that are not optimized for non-analog input, generally uninteresting enemies, score mechanic that forces you to eschew everything that makes the game unique (subweapons and time capsules).

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Sine Mora doesn't even count as a good game. Its release was sloppy, had non-configurable controls (3 shit presets), horrible analog movement, a terrible scoring system, broken autofire system (use a rapid fire controller for lols). This thread strikes me as more about otherwise good/decently made games that just don't click, whereas Sine Mora is honestly just half-assed in every aspect save for its visuals.

Having to pay attention to how much damage you're doing is bad? I don't get it.

I didn't say it ruins a game, I like shmups that don't have lifebars (Konami shmups, Giga Wing, Progear, etc) but I think they're a good addition and generally I'd like to have a lifebar if possible. It helps to know how close a boss is to the end of a phase so I can play risky for that last segment or not.

[gs68]

RefRain looked good when I looked at the screenshots, and I find it amusing that you can connect your Twitter account so it auto-tweets when you ALL clear the game, but its deviation from the standard danmaku formula (cancel bullets to turn them into shootable point items) doesn't hold my attention well enough to warrant in-depth play. No wonder the game doesn't even have a high score thread here.

Also, Space Invaders Infinity Gene. I liked the concept of evolving stages, but the last few unlock ships turn the game into Space Invaders: Infinity Cheese. Although I guess there's always not using them.

[dunpeal2064]

Psyvariar: Man, I really want to like this game. I even go on youtube and watch other people play it, and that in itself is enjoyable. Probably some of the best eye candy in a shooter. I don't even mind the roll, whether I have an auto roll button or not. When I play the game, though, it just doesn't feel fluid. I don't naturally understand when I should dodge, and when I should try to use the temporary invincibility to dance around the screen. Normally, I don't mind not being able to play a game optimally at first, but this game seems to punish you pretty harshly for approaching it wrong.

Hellsinker: Just picked this one up a few days ago. I knew coming in that it was a complex beast, and that excited me! I really didn't expect this level of complexity though. I have never been so confused playing a shmup! Still, I want to like what I think this game is, and I enjoy secrets and such. But, even after reading through the strat thread, I am just baffled every time I boot it up

Radirgy: This one I do enjoy a bit, but not to the extend that I want to enjoy it. The game feels very loose, in that I never really know what I should be doing. There are more mechanics than I am used to in a shmup, but I'm not really getting which mechanics should be used where to play for score, and playing for survival, it just seems like I am missing out on what the game is trying to offer.

Mars Matrix: I really don't enjoy playing this game. Its borderline on me even wanting to like it, but on paper it just seems like it should be a good game. Every time I play it, though, I feel the exact opposite.

I have not given up on these though (Except maybe MM), I want to enjoy them and will keep giving them the occasional credit until it clicks, at which point I'll probably be unable to put the game down. Up until recently, Espgaluda would have been on this list, but once it clicked, I was (and still am) completely hooked.

[gs68]

Hellsinker: Just picked this one up a few days ago. I knew coming in that it was a complex beast, and that excited me! I really didn't expect this level of complexity though. I have never been so confused playing a shmup! Still, I want to like what I think this game is, and I enjoy secrets and such. But, even after reading through the strat thread, I am just baffled every time I boot it up

If you have the EN patch or got the game off of the doujin bundle (which comes pre-patched), study the manual. It really helps a lot, and once you understand the terminology and how the gauges work, it's not such a bad game to play, at least purely for survival. (Playing for score is still a different beast, I can get about 20-25k spirits while top-tier players can get at least 80k)

And it seems like a lot of people are listing Mars Matrix and I have to agree. It seems like a very well-executed game, and the concept of being able to chain more freely than in, say, your usual CAVE game, seems pretty cool. But it's also one of those "die or run out of chain meter and your score goes out the window" games.

[dunpeal2064]

I got the game off of the bundle... and had no idea it had a manual! That would probably help immensely. Where would I locate this?

[gs68]

[dunpeal2064]

Derp

I am obviously not competent enough to use my eyes/common sense.

Thanks gs68

[wiNteR]

None of these games I dislike by any means. But they didn't turn out as enjoyable as I expected them to be.

Border Down:
Doesn't feel like a complete game. I think grev did well with UD but here they missed the mark.
Raiden Fighters:
Looks highly promising on first look. But too many snipers, too much point blanking, too much emphasis on destroying enemies before they can do anything. Good game but not good as the initial impression.
Batrider:
Garegga is awesome. There are lot of things to like about this game too. But boss milking, too many secrets and too many characters means I would rather play this for survival than trying to score anything.

Anything Psikyo. I like fast paced games. I like the art. I like dodging fast bullets. Score system is always simple and intuitive. But... The absolutely necessity of memorization and lack of any significant randomness sucks all the fun out of it for me. It's not that I can't memorize or execute the same exact thing every time... It's just not fun.

I quite like Psikyo games, but i do think that this is a very fair criticism of their later games. Well done graphics, decent music (fitting the theme well enough), good variety in stages, nice scoring systems, cool-looking bosses and elaborate patterns. But I think that there is definitely this deficiency in their games.

I can give examples about Strikers 2 because that game I played significantly. I can probably think about a dozen (or more) instances in second loop boss patterns where they could have added some randomness (while keeping same or almost same pattern) without making the game unfair. But for some strange reason they decided not to, at any of those places. I think there is an issue with shorter development cycle and perhaps some lack of extensive play-testing etc.

For stages, I am not sure that enemy triggering (for bigger enemies) is the best idea. It works reasonably well but for some places it causes problems with balance. The big planes in the sixth stage are a good example. Too easy if you have figured an exact plan on destruction timing and too difficult if you try to wing it. Would be better to have more uniform difficulty in cases like these.

One of the thing that could perhaps work well would be random entrance/spawn positions for bigger enemies (within a limited range). At any rate, still a great game, but could be even better if some aspects were handled better.

edit: It also occurred to me that having slightly random enemy entrance time (again within a limited range) might be a good idea too.

[KAI]

Radirgy: This one I do enjoy a bit, but not to the extend that I want to enjoy it. The game feels very loose, in that I never really know what I should be doing. There are more mechanics than I am used to in a shmup, but I'm not really getting which mechanics should be used where to play for score, and playing for survival, it just seems like I am missing out on what the game is trying to offer.

It's easier than you think. Kill enemies to fill the A.B.S. gauge, Kill enemies and absorb bullets while using the A.B.S. Net to increase your signal rate. Kill enemies at max signal rate for maximum score. Intuitive as fuck. Go play the game.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

And it seems like a lot of people are listing Mars Matrix and I have to agree. It seems like a very well-executed game, and the concept of being able to chain more freely than in, say, your usual CAVE game, seems pretty cool. But it's also one of those "die or run out of chain meter and your score goes out the window" games.

Yeah, it looks cool on initial glance, but I feel it suffers from a similar, unforgiving playstyle to Ikagura. The game doesn't have an instant, safety bomb that'll get you out of a bad situation, so it's very memorization heavy. Seriously, the lack of an invulnerability, "save me!" bomb really feels like it changes things. If you don't know what you're doing or how to dodge a pattern or area, you're probably going to lose a life. And another. And another, until you gameover or learn what to do. True, you have the full charge meter bomb, but if you use that it takes forever for your meter to recharge, which is an equally bad situation, and since it needs a full meter, it's more like you have to plan its use rather than use it as an emergency measure.

Giga Wing on the other hand has instant execution safety bombs that are programmed to instantly refill your RB meter (if you use RB then bomb immediately after, as soon as the bomb ends it'll max out the meter even if it's only halfway filled) so you are guaranteed to get invulnerability and be prepared to RB right away. It's much more forgiving by comparison, but as much as I love the game, if you die anywhere in the middle of a stage (unless you're at say stage 6) you can expect your multiplier to get thoroughly screwed. You also don't get any extends if you're doing well, that one extend only appears if you have 0 lives left, and even if you make it with two extra lives to the TLB, your run can go sour in a hurry, you never get the resources in terms of lives to feel 'safe'. It does balance out always having the RB though (which you can use much more frequently and flexibly compared to Mars Matrix) and it was one of my earliest arcade 1CCs so I think it's still very forgiving, relatively speaking (especially with Stuck, his shot has crazy powerful spread, and every time you RB you can pointblank large targets with both cannons for the best damage in the game).

[evil_ash_xero]

Raiden Fighters series.

[Marc]

Under Defeat. The controls just fuck it for me they don't feel natural at all. A shame, as I appreciate the aesthetics and overall design. Actually, the G Rev robot one that I can't even remember the name of, despite the promise of being a throwback to old-school shooters with properly different weapons. That one.

[Kollision]

kinda agree about raiden fighters
espgaluda, mostly for the annoying music
trigger heart exelica, because I couldn't grasp the pendulum thing

[Austin]

Border down.

This.

I never could feel good about the whole Border concept, and the elevator tunes it uses as "music" is unbearable to me.

[Jonst]

i must have had a gut feeling about BD,i passed it up when it first came out,whenever that was,i got it 2 years ago paid £130 for it...more for collection's sake i guess,but i just didn't feel anything for it,didn't understand the constant praise it gets.It just seemed really generic and feel it's massively overrated,not what you want after shelling out that much! so it just sits in box collecting dust.Maybe i'll try again with it one day.

[gs68]

I thought Raiden Fighters was great for a while.

Then I started playing for score.

RIP my childhood.

[SuperSoaker360]

Ikaruga. I think I tried to get into it about 7 times now and every time I just regurgitate the game out with disgust. I want to like it but there's just so much memorization that it frustrates me. It doesn't make much sense either because I LOVE Radiant Silvergun but Ikaruga is a no-go for me.

Hellsinker. It's so unintuitive, and every time I try to play it I just feel like I don't know the rules.

Probably because you don't.

Take the time to learn it and practice, practice, practice! I wish I could do this for Ikaruga or YGW STGs

[CStarFlare]

99% of PC Engine games.

[ZacharyB]

Einhander is old school?

wow

The gameplay certainly is

Everyone who thinks this needs to check out some of this guy's videos. Best Einhänder player on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/user/AstraeaFGAmk2

Lots of different techniques on showcase. The most prominent is using the Riot weapon or Cannon weapon at the right time to ramp up the combo to that x16 bonus and riding that through a mess of enemies. He does it on a few bosses, too.

Yeah, it looks cool on initial glance, but I feel it suffers from a similar, unforgiving playstyle to Ikagura. The game doesn't have an instant, safety bomb that'll get you out of a bad situation, so it's very memorization heavy. Seriously, the lack of an invulnerability, "save me!" bomb really feels like it changes things. If you don't know what you're doing or how to dodge a pattern or area, you're probably going to lose a life. And another. And another, until you gameover or learn what to do. True, you have the full charge meter bomb, but if you use that it takes forever for your meter to recharge, which is an equally bad situation, and since it needs a full meter, it's more like you have to plan its use rather than use it as an emergency measure.

In Mars Matrix, one of the key techniques for getting out of trouble like that is to forego the use of the Black Hole Bomb and use the mosquito for just a split second, granting (very) temporary invulnerability. However, it does require a bit of hesitation, because the player has to recognize that trouble is brewing and hold off on reflecting bullets for cubes.