ESPgaluda PGM cart conversion

[IseeThings]

the other problem with conversions is of course people putting bad ROMs back onto PCBs.

Take for example Twin Cobra 2, since it was first dumped there has been a bad GFX rom in the dump (it was redumped just the other week)

Conversions to it have been sold on eBay etc. but all those conversions will have been using the bad ROM, this meant that in order to get a cart with the proper ROM there was always a risk of picking up a conversion with the bad one. The market was polluted with 'broken' versions of the game.

The same has happened with a lot of Atomiswave stuff, there are various reports of copies of one of the games where one of the background stages is completely screwed up, this has been traced back to a single bad bootleg that was subsequently bootlegged.

[rjosal]

There's always Tamashii on the PGM2, then you get original and easy modes, brand new for $400 including motherboard.

$400 where? I paid $500 a couple months ago...

[spadgy]

It's all an interesting debate for sure, and I'm fully aware my own standpoint on it contains some hypocrisy.

I've only ended up with one boot (bought through naivety when I was new to the hobby), and I don't personally indulge in boots, conversions or emulation. But I'm happy to make an exception to the emulation thing for STGT, which I can't really justify. And when it came to my Progear suicide, I was quick to Phoenix it so I could play it.

And, of course, near weekly I play legit PCB's at home in the UK that state clearly in the boot up screen 'not for use outside Japan'.

In short, it's easy to ride the moral high horse while making exceptions as you gallop through grey areas like Phoenixing.

A straight boot, however, remains a naughty thing, and we must never knowingly sell them here.

[system11]

In short, it's easy to ride the moral high horse while making exceptions as you gallop through grey areas like Phoenixing.

Desuiciding is never a grey area. The game is always what it was, just the code is no longer encrypted. Luckily for some CPS2 games now you can get decrypt sets where Razoola has not added splash screens and shit, which I can't abide.

I can't even fathom the mindset of people who like to own boards with intact suicide hardware - it dooms you to invasive battery replacement for no good reason at all.

[Fudoh]

The game is always what it was, just the code is no longer encrypted. Luckily for some CPS2 games now you can get decrypt sets where Razoola has not added splash screens and shit, which I can't abide.

here in Germany it's illegal by law to circumvent copy protection mechanisms. No that I give anything about it, just saying....

[Bar81]

In short, it's easy to ride the moral high horse while making exceptions as you gallop through grey areas like Phoenixing.

Desuiciding is never a grey area. The game is always what it was, just the code is no longer encrypted. Luckily for some CPS2 games now you can get decrypt sets where Razoola has not added splash screens and shit, which I can't abide.

I can't even fathom the mindset of people who like to own boards with intact suicide hardware - it dooms you to invasive battery replacement for no good reason at all.

+10000000000

[spadgy]

In short, it's easy to ride the moral high horse while making exceptions as you gallop through grey areas like Phoenixing.

Desuiciding is never a grey area. The game is always what it was, just the code is no longer encrypted. Luckily for some CPS2 games now you can get decrypt sets where Razoola has not added splash screens and shit, which I can't abide.

I can't even fathom the mindset of people who like to own boards with intact suicide hardware - it dooms you to invasive battery replacement for no good reason at all.

Very good points. And that logic means my sleepless, guilt-riddled nights can end!

[IseeThings]

In short, it's easy to ride the moral high horse while making exceptions as you gallop through grey areas like Phoenixing.

Desuiciding is never a grey area. The game is always what it was, just the code is no longer encrypted. Luckily for some CPS2 games now you can get decrypt sets where Razoola has not added splash screens and shit, which I can't abide.

I can't even fathom the mindset of people who like to own boards with intact suicide hardware - it dooms you to invasive battery replacement for no good reason at all.

Actually I'd disagree, if you de-suicide a CPS2 it still becomes a bootleg. The code has been modified, it is no longer running the original code, there is a chance glithces have been introduced if encrypted/non-encrypted areas got missed. Likewise some memory accesses have to be changed around because the board acts in a slightly different way with a dead battery.

If you want a non-bootleg CPS2 then keep the batteries alive, otherwise you're running bootleg code, like it or not... The only way something is original is if it's running 100% unmodified original code.

Morally it's less of a problem, but there was a wave of people at one point killing perfectly good CPS2 boards just so that they could sell them as suicide free, that's just as bad as the bootlegging / cart conversions because you're denied the opportunity to actually buy the original running original code.

As you might be aware Smitdogg ended up picking up an 'undumped' Cyberbots recently, thinking it was a legit revision, instead it was a desuicided game running bootleg code and not a legitimate original revision. This wasn't disclosed at the time of purchase, so he got burned just like anybody else picking up a bootleg would get burned.

Having the option to fix an already dead CPS2 game via the bootleg phoenix roms etc. is handy and has without doubt stopped a good number of PCBs going in the trash, but don't fool yourselves, it's most definitely not original code at that point and should never be sold / misrepresented as such.

[Bar81]

In short, it's easy to ride the moral high horse while making exceptions as you gallop through grey areas like Phoenixing.

Desuiciding is never a grey area. The game is always what it was, just the code is no longer encrypted. Luckily for some CPS2 games now you can get decrypt sets where Razoola has not added splash screens and shit, which I can't abide.

I can't even fathom the mindset of people who like to own boards with intact suicide hardware - it dooms you to invasive battery replacement for no good reason at all.

Having the option to fix an already dead CPS2 game via the bootleg phoenix roms etc. is handy and has without doubt stopped a good number of PCBs going in the trash, but don't fool yourselves, it's most definitely not original code at that point and should never be sold / misrepresented as such.

I think this point is irrelevant to the discussion; no one has indicated that it's okay to sell desuicided boards without disclosing the same in case someone really loves changing batteries. With respect to the rest of your points, to claim that any modification of original code is a bootleg is a very narrow minded view. For all intents and purposes the desuicided games play identical to the original; at worst it's been modified, but to call it a bootleg is ludicrous.

[IseeThings]

I think this point is irrelevant to the discussion; no one has indicated that it's okay to sell desuicided boards without disclosing the same in case someone really loves changing batteries. With respect to the rest of your points, to claim that any modification of original code is a bootleg is a very narrow minded view. For all intents and purposes the desuicided games play identical to the original; at worst it's been modified, but to call it a bootleg is ludicrous.

I know people aren't going to agree, but once you start modifying things, stripping out the protection etc. then they become bootlegs, I wouldn't call it ludicrous at all. Maybe my viewpoint is skewed because I understand the nature of the protection etc. and just how gross getting rid of it is, but it's certainly not a trivial change.

It isn't restored / repaired, repaired would be finding a way to restore the original keys, instead a choice was made to run non-original bootleg code rather than incur of the cost of sending back to Capcom or finding a way to reprogram the keys rather than the cheap way out which is to run hacked bootleg code.

Like I said, morally, using such methods to keep your boards working is fine, but if it's not running the original code it isn't original.

[Bar81]

I think this point is irrelevant to the discussion; no one has indicated that it's okay to sell desuicided boards without disclosing the same in case someone really loves changing batteries. With respect to the rest of your points, to claim that any modification of original code is a bootleg is a very narrow minded view. For all intents and purposes the desuicided games play identical to the original; at worst it's been modified, but to call it a bootleg is ludicrous.

I know people aren't going to agree, but once you start modifying things, stripping out the protection etc. then they become bootlegs, I wouldn't call it ludicrous at all.

It isn't restored / repaired, repaired would be finding a way to restore the original keys, instead a choice was made to run non-original bootleg code rather than incur of the cost of sending back to Capcom or finding a way to reprogram the keys rather than the cheap way out which is to run hacked bootleg code.

Like I said, morally, using such methods to keep your boards working is fine, but if it's not running the original code it isn't original.

So, in your mind, desuiciding

=



=



If so, WOW.

[IseeThings]

I've said both are bootlegs.

Morally, desuiciding your board is fine, running an xx-in-1 isn't.

Legally, they're about the same (I have a feeling Capcom would refuse to repair a board if it already had phoenix roms installed in place of the original chips)

When it comes to selling them, they're both as bad as each other. (the desuicided board possibly worse if the modification isn't disclosed, at least the xx-in-1 is obviously non-original)

When it comes to people killing perfectly good boards to install hacked, non-suicide roms, they're both as bad as each other.

[system11]

I think this point is irrelevant to the discussion; no one has indicated that it's okay to sell desuicided boards without disclosing the same in case someone really loves changing batteries. With respect to the rest of your points, to claim that any modification of original code is a bootleg is a very narrow minded view. For all intents and purposes the desuicided games play identical to the original; at worst it's been modified, but to call it a bootleg is ludicrous.

I know people aren't going to agree, but once you start modifying things, stripping out the protection etc. then they become bootlegs, I wouldn't call it ludicrous at all.

It isn't restored / repaired, repaired would be finding a way to restore the original keys, instead a choice was made to run non-original bootleg code rather than incur of the cost of sending back to Capcom or finding a way to reprogram the keys rather than the cheap way out which is to run hacked bootleg code.

Like I said, morally, using such methods to keep your boards working is fine, but if it's not running the original code it isn't original.

Well, pretty much the entire arcade collecting scene disagrees with you, which is a good thing.

A bootleg is an unauthorised copy - specifically on copied hardware. Desuicide ROMs are the original code with protection removed. There is no point replacing batteries long term, because actually the repeated soldering/desoldering will eventually ruin the solder pads.

[IseeThings]

I think this point is irrelevant to the discussion; no one has indicated that it's okay to sell desuicided boards without disclosing the same in case someone really loves changing batteries. With respect to the rest of your points, to claim that any modification of original code is a bootleg is a very narrow minded view. For all intents and purposes the desuicided games play identical to the original; at worst it's been modified, but to call it a bootleg is ludicrous.

I know people aren't going to agree, but once you start modifying things, stripping out the protection etc. then they become bootlegs, I wouldn't call it ludicrous at all.

It isn't restored / repaired, repaired would be finding a way to restore the original keys, instead a choice was made to run non-original bootleg code rather than incur of the cost of sending back to Capcom or finding a way to reprogram the keys rather than the cheap way out which is to run hacked bootleg code.

Like I said, morally, using such methods to keep your boards working is fine, but if it's not running the original code it isn't original.

Well, pretty much the entire arcade collecting scene disagrees with you, which is a good thing.

A bootleg is an unauthorised copy - specifically on copied hardware. Desuicide ROMs are the original code with protection removed. There is no point replacing batteries long term, because actually the repeated soldering/desoldering will eventually ruin the solder pads.

I don't consider it a good thing at all, it means that in 20 years pretty much all CPS2 boards will be running non-original code because it's an accepted solution rather than keeping them in proper working order with original code. It's an easier solution, sure, but I don't think it's a good one.

We've seen this in other areas, once an easier solution comes along people stop taking care of / stop maintaining the one that requires more effort to maintain. These aren't always bootleg solutions, but if for example you want an original Konami Bubble Memory you'll struggle to find one in working condition because most arcades just got rid of them as soon as the games were available as standard ROMs. As a result they're not only unreliable but now incredibly rare and expensive, and will possibly never be emulated properly either.

If I was collecting something I'd take pride in knowing I had a fully intact original, not that it was running knock-off code. I fear in 20 years it will be much harder for somebody to do this if the advice being given is to kill off your original batteries / not bother replacing them, and simply stick the hacked code on the boards. Just because something is popular advice / convenient doesn't make it good advice.

[Bar81]

I've said both are bootlegs.

Morally, desuiciding your board is fine, running an xx-in-1 isn't.

Legally, they're about the same (I have a feeling Capcom would refuse to repair a board if it already had phoenix roms installed in place of the original chips)

When it comes to selling them, they're both as bad as each other. (the desuicided board possibly worse if the modification isn't disclosed, at least the xx-in-1 is obviously non-original)

When it comes to people killing perfectly good boards to install hacked, non-suicide roms, they're both as bad as each other.

That's so illogical I can't even begin to respond. I think what you want to say after you've actually thought about it is that you prefer original code unmodified and do not buy/collect any boards with modified code, which is a valid position. To equate the things in my above post with a straight face reveals a person who has not fully thought through their statements.

[IseeThings]

I've said both are bootlegs.

Morally, desuiciding your board is fine, running an xx-in-1 isn't.

Legally, they're about the same (I have a feeling Capcom would refuse to repair a board if it already had phoenix roms installed in place of the original chips)

When it comes to selling them, they're both as bad as each other. (the desuicided board possibly worse if the modification isn't disclosed, at least the xx-in-1 is obviously non-original)

When it comes to people killing perfectly good boards to install hacked, non-suicide roms, they're both as bad as each other.

That's so illogical I can't even begin to respond. I think what you want to say after you've actually thought about it is that you prefer original code unmodified and do not buy/collect any boards with modified code.

right, because modified code with protection removed by anybody other than Capcom == bootleg code. I wouldn't want my boards running bootleg code. If I purchased a board with modified roms in this way I would report the seller for selling me a bootleg.

we're going to have to agree to disagree on this I'm afraid, but for the reasons outlined in my previous post I'm not a big fan of this.

Luckily (at least for all cases we've found) we can figure out the encryption keys for any given CPS2 game as long as we have another set of it (undumped regions of Super Puzzle Fighter are the riskiest case) so it's not AS destructive as it could be, but it's still a bit of a mess.

As for not thinking things through, I disagree, this has been my viewpoint as long as I can remember, it isn't about to change.

[Bar81]

I've said both are bootlegs.

Morally, desuiciding your board is fine, running an xx-in-1 isn't.

Legally, they're about the same (I have a feeling Capcom would refuse to repair a board if it already had phoenix roms installed in place of the original chips)

When it comes to selling them, they're both as bad as each other. (the desuicided board possibly worse if the modification isn't disclosed, at least the xx-in-1 is obviously non-original)

When it comes to people killing perfectly good boards to install hacked, non-suicide roms, they're both as bad as each other.

That's so illogical I can't even begin to respond. I think what you want to say after you've actually thought about it is that you prefer original code unmodified and do not buy/collect any boards with modified code.

right, because modified code with protection removed by anybody other than Capcom == bootleg code. I wouldn't want my boards running bootleg code. If I purchased a board with modified roms in this way I would report the seller for selling me a bootleg.

we're going to have to agree to disagree on this I'm afraid, but for the reasons outlined in my previous post I'm not a big fan of this.

Luckily (at least for all cases we've found) we can figure out the encryption keys for any given CPS2 game as long as we have another set of it (undumped regions of Super Puzzle Fighter are the riskiest case) so it's not AS destructive as it could be, but it's still a bit of a mess.

Just so sad.

[system11]

right, because modified code with protection removed by anybody other than Capcom == bootleg code. I wouldn't want my boards running bootleg code. If I purchased a board with modified roms in this way I would report the seller for selling me a bootleg.

No, the code isn't an unauthorised copy or clone, its just modified. If you reported someone for selling you a desuicided board for anything other than it being a undisclosed modification, it would actually make you an outright liar. You can't just decide what words mean.

Luckily (at least for all cases we've found) we can figure out the encryption keys for any given CPS2 game as long as we have another set of it (undumped regions of Super Puzzle Fighter are the riskiest case) so it's not AS destructive as it could be, but it's still a bit of a mess.

The keys are useless, you can't load them back on the PCB.

[IseeThings]

right, because modified code with protection removed by anybody other than Capcom == bootleg code. I wouldn't want my boards running bootleg code. If I purchased a board with modified roms in this way I would report the seller for selling me a bootleg.

No, the code isn't an unauthorised copy or clone, its just modified. If you reported someone for selling you a desuicided board for anything other than it being a undisclosed modification, it would actually make you an outright liar. You can't just decide what words mean.

It has unauthorized modifications applied to it, the removal of all the encryption, merging of decrypted code with non-encrypted data, patching of register writes. If I buy an original PCB I expect original code, not such ghastly hacks.

I would feel well within my rights reporting it as a bootleg. To me it's no different to if I ordered an album off Amazon and got a burned MP3 copy along with the CD and a note saying 'sorry the original was scratched'. Again we're just going to have to agree to disagree here.

The keys are useless, you can't load them back on the PCB.

The keys allow the original code to run however, and should a correct way to handle it be found, will be needed to run the original code on the original boards.

My interest is in seeing things preserved properly in their original from. To me that's what gives them value. Once you start running modified code that is no longer the case and you can't *guarantee* the proper behaviour.

I concede, most people simply care about playing the games, and don't give a damn what the boards are running. That's a different viewpoint to the one I hold, although I guess that's why I work on Mame, because I think it's important to document these protection systems etc. before they've been lost to people converting things.

[system11]

Yeah - there's no hope continuing the conversation when someone is freely changing the meaning of words to suit their viewpoint.

What's your ebay ID so I can block it just in case? Wouldn't want to get reported as a bootleg in case I replaced a failed ROM and burned it with a non Capcom compliant ROM burner, or replaced the wrong make of capacitor.

[trap15]

#UnpopularPCBOpinions

I agree with Haze, for whatever it's worth.

[antron]

In regards to running code in a non official way, whether its legal or not should be the test of whether it's legit or not. "Have you legally violated the licence it was sold under?", is the question. This is a question that has a different answer depending on the licence and current laws of your region. It is my understanding, from talking with long time arcade vendors, that the license, in the USA, is tied to the PCB. You can re-burn ROMs all you want. Moreover, the question of whether it is legal to break the copy protections of legally made and purchased legacy digital systems/media, in the USA, has a specific answer in the Digital Millennium Copy-write Act. It is explicitly allowed for old unsupported hardware/software.

On the subject of 100-in-1 MVS carts and such, if you have a problem with that, then you must have a problem with using ROMs in MAME if you do not own the PCB (in the USA at least).

[cools]

#UnpopularPCBOpinions

I agree with Haze, for whatever it's worth.

I think he's making a hash of how he's presenting the argument, but the core principle of original > modified I agree with wholeheartedly. It'd be far better to be able to desuicide a game into it's original state than to resurrect it with decrypted and patched code.

Sadly it's not feasible to fix games in this way (are there any that can have this done yet?) so making do with the current solutions means we don't have thousands of boards lying unrepairable/being scrapped/scavenged for parts.

There is no point replacing batteries long term, because actually the repeated soldering/desoldering will eventually ruin the solder pads.

If we could reprogram keys, I'd be okay with chips in (added) sockets and battery holders.

[system11]

If we could reprogram keys, I'd be okay with chips in (added) sockets and battery holders.

And then you've modified the board. For CPS2 for example, you're still going to be pulling the boardset and cart apart every 3 years. You may aswell go all the way and use sensible ROMs too. To this day I still pay more for desuicided games, because suicide is bad. The only ones I won't accept are where anything other than purely getting rid of the decryption has been done. This is the same level of pointlessly annoying crap as DRM in digital audio files.

Nobody is ever going to work out how to load the keys back onto games (I don't even know how you ever could on System 16 for example) - a suicide enabled board is simply a liability at worst, or an upcoming expense at best. From the preservationist point of view, clinging to suicide because that's how it came from the factory is completely illogical.

This attitude is a very recent thing, by the way.

[cools]

If we could reprogram keys, I'd be okay with chips in (added) sockets and battery holders.

And then you've modified the board.

Absolutely, but not the code. I'd be surprised if the additional signal time from an added socket caused any difference in execution.

From the preservationist point of view, clinging to suicide because that's how it came from the factory is completely illogical.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. I prefer desuicided boards where the result of the desuicide process is a guaranteed straightforward decryption, and repairs to fix factory or age related flaws are fine (doesn't everyone's Raiden DX have noisy sound?). But while it doesn't personally concern me I can see how there's merit in knowing that any boards being prepared for resurrection are dumped and checked if they're an unknown version first.

[emphatic]

This attitude is a very recent thing, by the way.

Maybe around these parts, but when I started buying JAMMA boards a couple of years ago, de-suiciding CPS2 games was a big non-no for some people, and they still haven't budged.

[Bar81]

This attitude is a very recent thing, by the way.

Maybe around these parts, but when I started buying JAMMA boards a couple of years ago, de-suiciding CPS2 games was a big non-no for some people, and they still haven't budged.

While it's an illogical position, I can still understand the emotional appeal to certain people of a mythical "pure" version of CPS2 B boards (that only exists in their minds unfortunately as once you swap out the battery it's no longer original, but I digress); but what I'm confused about is where along the road that got perverted into the nonsense we witnessed above where desuiciding=bootlegging. Based on what I've seen, the group of people that eschew that fallacy is a very small minority subset of the minority that is against desuiciding, thankfully.

[Bar81]

In regards to running code in a non official way, whether its legal or not should be the test of whether it's legit or not. "Have you legally violated the licence it was sold under?", is the question. This is a question that has a different answer depending on the licence and current laws of your region. It is my understanding, from talking with long time arcade vendors, that the license, in the USA, is tied to the PCB. You can re-burn ROMs all you want. Moreover, the question of whether it is legal to break the copy protections of legally made and purchased legacy digital systems/media, in the USA, has a specific answer in the Digital Millennium Copy-write Act. It is explicitly allowed for old unsupported hardware/software.

On the subject of 100-in-1 MVS carts and such, if you have a problem with that, then you must have a problem with using ROMs in MAME if you do not own the PCB (in the USA at least).

Again, legality, along with morality are irrelevant to the discussion. Sticking to the first subject since your post only addresses legality, by your logic, buying a green CPS2 board in Japan while living there and then taking it with you to America when you move there would constitute bootlegging since the boards are only permitted by Capcom to be played in Japan. As I said above, it's very dangerous when people make statements without thinking deeply.

[antron]

I'm pretty sure that only applies to commercial use. If you put it on location in the US then technically you would be a bootlegger.

But I agree that morals should be irreverent to the discussion. If no legal body is going to prosecute anyone for buying and selling these bootlegs, then everyone who desires such a thing should help themselves. If only good guys refuse to buy them then only bad guys will get them all.

[Trevor spencer]

I owned my progear quite a bit before phoenixing was available but as soon as Raz worked out how to make these games suicide free , i got mine converted straight away , still dont regret it , id rather have the piece of mind one of my best games is not going to die , I wont be getting rid of it so value is not important to me