Lag on the XRGB-Mini

[ZellSF]

It is very easy to rule out a receiver though, so definitely do that.

[KishSquared]

I have the Wii HDMI dongle, so maybe my TV is the source of lag. If that's the case, and you're saying that the Framemeister will replace the processing of the TV, should I see an improvement by routing the HDMI dongle through the upscaler? Or does that only work well with 480i?

no, if you input a 480p source into the Mini, the Mini's lag gets added to the TV's native lag.

I'm still trying to understand this. Why does the TV add lag if it's receiving a native 1080p resolution? Shouldn't the only lag at play be on the Mini?

The Xbox and PS3 both output at a native 1080p, so the TV adds no lag (I assume). Otherwise these systems would be as laggy as the Wii. So why doesn't the Mini's lag (presumedly very short) replace the HDTV's processing lag?

EDIT: Okay, maybe this does make sense. Is there a 'native' lag and an 'upscaling' lag? And the Mini replaces the 'upscaling' lag? That would mean that the Xbox/PS3 are also affected by the 'native' lag.

[Fudoh]

I'm still trying to understand this. Why does the TV add lag if it's receiving a native 1080p resolution? Shouldn't the only lag at play be on the Mini?

every TV has a "base" lag, which applies to native 1080p feeds when the TV's set to gamemode. This is usually 2-3 Frames. Choosing another input resolution (worst case 15khz or 1080i) adds lag to that.

The Xbox and PS3 both output at a native 1080p, so the TV adds no lag (I assume). Otherwise these systems would be as laggy as the Wii. So why doesn't the Mini's lag (presumedly very short) replace the HDTV's processing lag?

Most TVs don't add more lag to 480p sources than to 1080p ones. Some add a little lag to analogue sources though. In general a Wii connected in 480p should still be close enough to other 1080p sources.

The Mini, just like all previous XRGB units, is mainly used for 15khz sources (240p and 480i) and those are the resolutions where the TV's processing delay often explodes. The Mini does process those resolutions better (than all TVs) and faster (than most TVs).

480p is an unfortunate combination in which running through the Mini usually introduces more lag than connecting to the TV directly.

[KishSquared]

Okay, this is starting to make sense. So it sounds like my best bet for playing the Wii lag-free is to use the HDMI cable to a TV/monitor with minimal lag. And apparently my Xbox lags at 1080p and I never realized it.

Another question, then. Let's say I do pass the Wii at 480i (or 480p) to the Mini, and the Mini upscales it to 1080p. Shouldn't the Wii look crisp and clear on the TV? One of the reasons I've assumed I'm doing things wrong is that the picture doesn't look any less fuzzy than usual.

[Fudoh]

Okay, this is starting to make sense. So it sounds like my best bet for playing the Wii lag-free is to use the HDMI cable to a TV/monitor with minimal lag. And apparently my Xbox lags at 1080p and I never realized it.

Wii is best using a HDMI dongle, yes. Not all Wii games support 480p though. The few 480i ones likely won't work this way. 360 is best set to 720p. Takes some work off the internal postprocessing and there are barely any native 1080p titles anyway.

Another question, then. Let's say I do pass the Wii at 480i (or 480p) to the Mini, and the Mini upscales it to 1080p. Shouldn't the Wii look crisp and clear on the TV? One of the reasons I've assumed I'm doing things wrong is that the picture doesn't look any less fuzzy than usual.

480i and 480p both require VERY different settings, so there is no simple yes or no answer to that. I can assure you that the Wii upscales 480i better than any other processor or TV out there. 480p not so much.

[KishSquared]

So the Mini 'may or may not' improve Wii graphics on an HDTV? I'm really not understanding that one - I thought upscalers were supposed to clean up old game systems and make them appear crisp. Does that only apply to old same systems running at 240?

I really appreciate your patience in explaining all this!

[EmperorZelos]

So the Mini 'may or may not' improve Wii graphics on an HDTV? I'm really not understanding that one - I thought upscalers were supposed to clean up old game systems and make them appear crisp. Does that only apply to old same systems running at 240?

I really appreciate your patience in explaining all this!

They may or may not help depending on what you're using

I think mini is the best scaler I have encountered. The issue is that you got 480 does not neatly fit in 1080, if you scale up 480 to 1080 each pixel would have to be scaled 2,25 times which means a bucnh of pixels iwll be sharing pixels with one another, so the question is how do you do? thats where hte issue comes, either it doiesn't cover the entire page or if not it has to deiced how colours are made in the overlapping pixels

[broken harbour]

It is very easy to rule out a receiver though, so definitely do that.

Even hooked directly to my TV there's lag, which I'm assuming is input lag, because I don't get the lag with any other system, at least that I can perceive.

[kamiboy]

Psssssst...........

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crt

#runs away#

[EmperorZelos]

Psssssst...........

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crt

#runs away#

Too big or too small

[Sixfortyfive]

360 is best set to 720p. Takes some work off the internal postprocessing and there are barely any native 1080p titles anyway.

This is something I've wondered about for a while, actually. Has there ever been any hard numbers found for latency with the 360's internal scaler?

[Fudoh]

it's not about latency, it's about framerate and tearing. Several games just run better at 720p.

[Smashbro29]

So the mini is not the best method for getting 480p content to an HDTV? It actually causes more lag?

[matrigs]

Both.

That actually blows my mind a little bit. Without deinterlacing, shouldn't processing be much faster for progressive sources? Especially for 480p and above.

[Fudoh]

It's a design flaw. Probably caused by the Marvell processor which can't be bypassed - even when the FPGA does all the work.

[Smashbro29]

Do you think that might be a software update in the future?

[HydrogLox]

I have the Wii HDMI dongle, so maybe my TV is the source of lag.

This may have gotten drowned out:

If you need lower lag, get a Wii HDMI dongle* and set your Wii to 480p.
(*make sure to get one without integrated scaling)

In other words: are you sure that you got a Wii HDMI dongle that outputs 480p on the HDMI end - not 720p, 1080i, or 1080p.
For example this WII2HDMI labelled dongle has an integrated scaler and only outputs 720p or 1080p - the cheap scaling circuitry in that thing will do a slower/worse job than your TV. That is why I recommended the Neoya - not including an integrated scaler was a deliberate design decision.

Also - most HD TVs have a "Scene Select" feature - make sure yours is set to "Game" mode. Typically this bypasses some of the TVs internal "picture enhancement" processing (which adds input lag). However this does not guarantee that your TV is a star performer. Have a look over the input lag database. This should give you an idea how bad things can get - just because a TV is expensive doesn't mean it will have acceptable input lag - TVs are still primarily designed for "passive entertainment" like watching movies. You can probably only tolerate the best of the "Excellent" rated sets, like the Sony KDL-47W802A/KDL-55W802A - even "Great" won't cut it for you.

The issue is that you got 480 does not neatly fit in 1080, if you scale up 480 to 1080 each pixel would have to be scaled 2,25 times...

1280x960 [4:3 480p 640x480] (or 1708x960 [16:9 480p 854x480]) window boxed on 1920x1080 (1080p) would be pixel perfect but people hate black bars.

Do you think that might be a software update in the future?

A software patch cannot fix the design failing to provide a hardware bypass - unless the Marvell processor itself has a lag-less pass-through mode which I doubt.

[Fudoh]

The issue is that you got 480 does not neatly fit in 1080

that's no issue. The issue is that 480i to 1080p looks way better than 480p to 1080p due to some stupid sampling error which causes blurry edges on 480p signals.

[EmperorZelos]

1280x960 [4:3 480p 640x480] (or 1708x960 [16:9 480p 854x480]) window boxed on 1920x1080 (1080p) would be pixel perfect but people hate black bars.

I have always found the blackbar hatred strange, you never complained about it when the TVs were that big, are people complaining about the non-existent area around the TVs? whats the problem with blackbars?

that's no issue. The issue is that 480i to 1080p looks way better than 480p to 1080p due to some stupid sampling error which causes blurry edges on 480p signals.

That too

[broken harbour]

The issue is that you got 480 does not neatly fit in 1080

that's no issue. The issue is that 480i to 1080p looks way better than 480p to 1080p due to some stupid sampling error which causes blurry edges on 480p signals.

Does that mean I should be taking my Wii, PS2, and Xbox and switching them to output 480i only and change the H Scaler to 5?

Becuase I've noticed on a few 480i titles that it does look really sharp.

[Fudoh]

No, I would recommend using a component matrix switch with two outputs, one output routed into the Mini for 240p and 480i and the other routed directly into the TV (Sony W series), a component to HDMI converter (most other TVs) or a secondary scaler especially for 480p material.

EDIT: but to clarify 100% - - the Mini is by no means bad with 480p material. 1080p out, V_Scaler 5, H_Scaler 10-11 and Sharpess 1 looks pretty good. Bypassing the Mini is something you should only do if you want to avoid that extra 1.5 frames of lag on 480p sources or if you know that your TV will handle 480p through HDMI better than the Mini does through component.

[KishSquared]

I have the Wii HDMI dongle, so maybe my TV is the source of lag.

This may have gotten drowned out:

If you need lower lag, get a Wii HDMI dongle* and set your Wii to 480p.
(*make sure to get one without integrated scaling)

In other words: are you sure that you got a Wii HDMI dongle that outputs 480p on the HDMI end - not 720p, 1080i, or 1080p.

Well... crappity. I thought I got the right one but I just checked and it upscales to 1080p. I guess I'll grab the Neoya one when I can and give that a shot. Thanks for asking, HydroLox!

And thanks Fudoh for those setting recommendations. I'll give that a try - again, I've been disappointed so far with how the Wii looks through the Mini.

Does anyone have a recommendation for how to connect the Gamecube through the Mini so it looks good? My kids are playing Pikmin right now and it's painful to watch

[Fudoh]

If you have component cables for the Cube, why not just get a universal component to HDMI converter instead ? Those are about $30 and work fine on both systems as long as the games support 480p.

[broken harbour]

Does anyone have a recommendation for how to connect the Gamecube through the Mini so it looks good? My kids are playing Pikmin right now and it's painful to watch

If you are connecting via component, You need to mess with the colour settings as they are too saturated.

I think you may need to mess with the scaler settings as even with the 480p bug my GC especially, looks incredibly sharp.

[HydrogLox]

Does anyone have a recommendation for how to connect the Gamecube through the Mini so it looks good? My kids are playing Pikmin right now and it's painful to watch

• Game Cube component cables are ludicrously rare/expensive.
• Game Cube component cables only work on the DOL-001 model discontinued in 2004.
• You already have a GC BC Wii set up.

Why not just use the Wii that is already set up?

A (used) GC BC Wii*** + component cable can cheaper than obtaining a (used) GC component cable these days ...

*** late model Wii's DO NOT have Game Cube backward compatibility.

[Smashbro29]

Does anyone have a recommendation for how to connect the Gamecube through the Mini so it looks good? My kids are playing Pikmin right now and it's painful to watch

• Why not just use the Wii that is already set up?

3 words: Game Boy Player.

[KishSquared]

Plus I'm still trying to address the 'crispness' factor - GC games running on Wii don't look any better than a direct output from the GC, at least with my setup. I guess I need to play with those Mini settings recommendations from Fudoh to see if I can improve the Wii's output. If I can make the Wii look good, I'd just pack up my GC. Because... wow... those component cables are expensive.

I'll also pick up the Neoya to play with the lag. My brother has some 'PS3' TVs made by Sony (don't know the model off-hand, but they're supposedly very low lag). I'll try it out on one of those instead of my laggy TV.

[Thomago]

3 words: Game Boy Player.

I can't quite fathom why people see the Game Boy Player as a valid reason for getting a 480p-ready NGC setup. Granted, it's the only official way to play GBA games on the big screen, but the constant stuttering is just hideous.

At least I paid only 20 € for the NGC component cable (via ebay)...

[Smashbro29]

3 words: Game Boy Player.

I can't quite fathom why people see the Game Boy Player as a valid reason for getting a 480p-ready NGC setup. Granted, it's the only official way to play GBA games on the big screen, but the constant stuttering is just hideous.

At least I paid only 20 € for the NGC component cable (via ebay)...

Constant stuttering? Looks great to me.

[eightbitminiboss]

Yeah, I don't notice the stuttering. I know it was mentioned before, but I played through Sword of Mana without ever noticing it.