The top-loader NES-quality hardware, or garbage?...

[leonk]

It costs a bit more but I stand behind AV modded top loader. I've done it for many customers and they're all happy. I did A/B comparison on multiple TVs between it and clean front loader and can't see a difference. On NESDEV I started a thread a few years back and that's where we came up with the solution. Most of the components needed (amp and filter) are already in the top loader. All you do is rebuild the toaster video amp off board. There's also a guy there that did a few hundred of them (I think he charges 75$ shipped in the states) and even installs an LED light behind power button for you. Once you use a front loader AV modded you'll never touch a toaster. I work with hundreds of nes games every month and wouldn't dream of anything else. The connector is that good.

My toaster is now only used for copyNES to test/dump bad carts, reload save games after battery fix as well as fix GAR.

[kamiboy]

Once you go Famicom Titler, you are never going back.

I just looked that up, and it looks pretty sweet! Sharp are the ones that also made the Twin Famicom, so I bet the Titler is pretty high quality.

However, I'd rather not fork over a grand for one!: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid= ... &_from=R40

Bah, eBay prices are for chumps. I got my CIB from Yahoo auctions for around $400-500 shipped if I remember right.

NES games will never look better than they do on a Titler, even if some of the colours are bit off since it has a playchoice 10 RGB decoder inside for its S-video output. Picture is crystal clear on a CRT.

[dave4shmups]

Once you go Famicom Titler, you are never going back.

I just looked that up, and it looks pretty sweet! Sharp are the ones that also made the Twin Famicom, so I bet the Titler is pretty high quality.

However, I'd rather not fork over a grand for one!: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid= ... &_from=R40

Bah, eBay prices are for chumps. I got my CIB from Yahoo auctions for around $400-500 shipped if I remember right.

NES games will never look better than they do on a Titler, even if some of the colours are bit off since it has a playchoice 10 RGB decoder inside for its S-video output. Picture is crystal clear on a CRT.

Yes, eBay prices are for chumps on items like that; I agree! I purchased the cheap Retrobit Retro Entertainment System for less then $19.00; free shipping and handling last night. It's scheduled to arrive on Saturday, so we'll see how it works as a clone. If it does, then I could care less if it says "Nintendo" on it. I'll be able to use my original NES controllers as well.

A playchoice 10 cabinet would be my first choice for an arcade cabinet! Are the colors off in the games??

Anyhow, I will report back on how well (or not) the Retrobit clone system works. My games are all as clean as they can be. Speaking of which, has anyone on here ever used the official NES cartridge cleaner kit, made by Nintendo? I don't mind using q-tips, but from the looks of it, the official kit looks like it would clean more contacts at one time. I don't know how many NES games it would be good for, though.

[Fudoh]

For 25 years I'm cleaning my carts this way: open the cart, use a blue ink rubber eraser to get the dirt off, wipe over it using some alcohol solvent, put cart back together. Done.

[kamiboy]

Yeah colours are off in Playchoice 10 units. But it is a small price to pay for the added clarity in my opinion.

[dave4shmups]

Yeah colours are off in Playchoice 10 units. But it is a small price to pay for the added clarity in my opinion.

Interesting; I guess I just never noticed it when I was kid playing a Nintendo game on a Playchoice 10. In Duck Hunt on the Playchoice 10, you can actually shoot the dog when it comes up and laughs at you!

I wonder if any NES game would work on the Playchoice 10, with an adapter?

[leonk]

Most NES games will work on PC10. Theres a guy on KLOV that made an nes to pc10 adapter who is selling it there. Really neat device.

As for current nes clones, the ones based on NOAC (Nintendo on a chip) none as close to being as good as original Nintendo hardware. They have flaws as small as wrong colors to bad items like games not booting (think most pirate/unlicensed/mmc5 games) and many have poor jail Bars in video.

[GohanX]

Some of the clones have really bad sound too, which is more of a pet peeve of mine than shifted colors.

NES emulation isn't hard, you'd think some of these Chinese manufacturers could spend 10 minutes tinkering with the emulator to make it perfect, but they never do.

[dave4shmups]

Some of the clones have really bad sound too, which is more of a pet peeve of mine than shifted colors.

NES emulation isn't hard, you'd think some of these Chinese manufacturers could spend 10 minutes tinkering with the emulator to make it perfect, but they never do.

Yeah, I just got my cheap Retrobit Retro Entertainment System in the mail today, and the colors in the games are fine; the picture is great, but the sound is weird-it sounds like someone's turning the volume up and down repeatedly. NO more clone systems for me!

So, I asked on the Nintendoage.com forums for an AV-modded top-loader NES. There is one right now on Ebay from a guy who does that type of mod really well, but it comes with a lot of games, and is $199.99, which is more then I'm looking to spend.

It's either that or a Famicom AV. I love NES gaming so much! I finished Crysis on my 360 this week, and it was good, but the games today just don't hold a candle to NES games, for me at least.

[GohanX]

If playing both NES and Fami I think a modded US toploader with a converter is the best choice if not using multiple systems. NES games in a Famicom through a converter are a little unstable since the cart is so tall it can wiggle back and forth.

I don't take my own advice I have a modded toploader, a modded OG Famicom and a refurbed toaster.

[Fudoh]

but then again the AV Famicom has the added sound capabilites over the US toploader system. I got a AV Famicom and a US frontloader. Nice combo

[RGB32E]

but then again the AV Famicom has the added sound capabilites over the US toploader system. I got a AV Famicom and a US frontloader. Nice combo

Me too! Both RGB modded!

Check this out:
http://page18.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w88928959

[dave4shmups]

but then again the AV Famicom has the added sound capabilites over the US toploader system. I got a AV Famicom and a US frontloader. Nice combo

So, the sound is better then an AV-modded toploader?

[leonk]

Let my try and clarify the famicom vs other region sound differences. The famicom has a couple extra sound channels that for some reason were removes on nes. The cart has extra pins for that sound (generated by custom mapper IC on cart and connector in famicom has wire for it to CPU/sound amp) this extra channel can be added to NES with hardware modification.

But then again not a lot of games have this extra support (the cart generates this extra sound). The most known example of this is Mr Gimmick. The famicom version has extra sound fx on famicom system. But apart from that they are identical. Same sound amp design same mono audio.

199$ for AV modded top loader is a good deal. The mod alone is 75$+ so you're only paying 120$ for the system! How much money will you continue to spend on cheap made in China hacks and still not get what you want?

[Ed Oscuro]

The famicom has a couple extra sound channels that for some reason were removes on nes.

No. The console itself doesn't determine what extra sound capabilities cartridges will offer, if any. It could be one extra channel, or an entirely new method of generating sound.

The cart has extra pins for that sound (generated by custom mapper IC on cart and connector in famicom has wire for it to CPU/sound amp) this extra channel can be added to NES with hardware modification.

Closer to accurate.

Some detail here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_ ... cartridges
...and to see what that means in practice:
http://callanbrown.com/index.php/castle ... icom-audio

[...] not a lot of games have this extra support (the cart generates this extra sound). The most known example of this is Mr Gimmick.

Not close to true, and not just because Gimmick was only given a limited non-Japanese NES release. Akumajo Densetsu (Castlevania III) is clearly the most famous instance of different sound arrangements. The runners-up might be some of the Famicom Disk System games which can offer some extra sound capabilities via the FDS hardware (i.e., NES Castlevania 2's Bloody Tears versus the FDS version). I suppose Mr. Gimmick is better known than the Rolling Thunder differences however.

A lot of this is down to taste. Some people will prefer a NES version (in the case of Castlevania 2, many do prefer the NES version) while others will often prefer a Famicom version.

I agree it's not a lot of games, and some people might even be driven nuts by the extra sound in a few of the famous action games...or they might think it's worth the price to get that extra sound.

For my money, a A/V Famicom (I have two boxed units, they weren't hard to come by at all) and a Akumajo Densetsu cartridge is not really an expensive combination, and looks like a better deal when you consider all the other awesome games you can easily play this way.

[Evilmaxwar]

I have an AV famicom that is RGB modded and I cast my vote for the AV fami being the best console.

PRO
-Top loader
-Easiest to RGB MOD using the F-labo kit.
-Has Standard Nintendo AV port with composite right Out of the Box
-Compatible with sound chip enhanced games right out of the box.
-Does not have the Jailbar problems of the other version of the console.


CONS
-Needs a cart slot converter to play NES games.

[Darksakul]

Time to start buying Famicom games, maybe?

FWIW I just use a regular toaster NES (isn't it confusing how the "toaster" NES isn't a toploader?) like everybody else, and I learned to enjoy it. I have no regrets

I've used two toaster NES consoles within the past year or so. The first one had a new 72-pin installed, and came from 4Jays classic games, no less. They didn't bother to clean ANY of the NES games (that is the LAST time I get retro games from them), and the 72-pin connector must have been a cheapo one, because I had a lot of trouble with it, even with clean games.

The other one just had cleaned pins, and was purchased from a reliable guy on Atariage, and that one was finicky as well, although it was better.

So I don't want to go the toaster NES route again. I really don't understand why Nintendo didn't make the NES a top-loader to begin with. Surely someone at Nintendo knew that going with the toaster design would cause a lot of problems. The explanation I've heard is that after the console gaming crash, Nintendo didn't want the NES to look like a typical video game console, although I don't know whether that's true or not.

Nintendo released the NES after the Video game crash of the 80s. Where Atari, Coleco and others flooded the market with terrible poor quality games.

The Whole idea of the "toaster" or front loader design is to make the NES look more like a part of your entertainment system, to resemble the VCR units of the time and less like the Toys Atari was being labeled as by the public. Along with the design, the NES was marketed as a for the whole family (and adults) entertainment device rather than a childrens electronic toy. Early NES usnits was even packaged with the R.O.B. Robot to ride the popularity bandwagon with robots in the 80s. Yes its a faulty design, Nintendo knew it, but the idea was to get over the stigma of the video game industry had in the early 80s.

[Fudoh]

What Ed Oscuro said. A few carts take advantage of the better sound capabilities. I as well think that Castlevania III was the most obvious one. When checking a number of FDS titles recently (using an Everdrive), I found that quite some utilize the additional sound channel. Many of the classics (e.g. Kid Icarus) sound better than the US cart versions.

[dave4shmups]

Time to start buying Famicom games, maybe?

FWIW I just use a regular toaster NES (isn't it confusing how the "toaster" NES isn't a toploader?) like everybody else, and I learned to enjoy it. I have no regrets

I've used two toaster NES consoles within the past year or so. The first one had a new 72-pin installed, and came from 4Jays classic games, no less. They didn't bother to clean ANY of the NES games (that is the LAST time I get retro games from them), and the 72-pin connector must have been a cheapo one, because I had a lot of trouble with it, even with clean games.

The other one just had cleaned pins, and was purchased from a reliable guy on Atariage, and that one was finicky as well, although it was better.

So I don't want to go the toaster NES route again. I really don't understand why Nintendo didn't make the NES a top-loader to begin with. Surely someone at Nintendo knew that going with the toaster design would cause a lot of problems. The explanation I've heard is that after the console gaming crash, Nintendo didn't want the NES to look like a typical video game console, although I don't know whether that's true or not.

Nintendo released the NES after the Video game crash of the 80s. Where Atari, Coleco and others flooded the market with terrible poor quality games.

The Whole idea of the "toaster" or front loader design is to make the NES look more like a part of your entertainment system, to resemble the VCR units of the time and less like the Toys Atari was being labeled as by the public. Along with the design, the NES was marketed as a for the whole family (and adults) entertainment device rather than a childrens electronic toy. Early NES usnits was even packaged with the R.O.B. Robot to ride the popularity bandwagon with robots in the 80s. Yes its a faulty design, Nintendo knew it, but the idea was to get over the stigma of the video game industry had in the early 80s.

Yeah, that's what I figured-they wanted to make it look different, and not like a toy.

[dave4shmups]

I JUST bought an AV Famicom from a US Seller on Ebay! $145.00, free shipping and handling! I also got a converter so I can play my NES games on it, from a different seller!

I'm wondering at some point, about getting a Famicom Disk System. Except that I've read that they can have problems with the belt, and I don't know how hard it that would be to replace.

[Fudoh]

It's easy to replace and the belts are easily available as well, but using an Everdrive cart is SO MUCH easier. And if you have a problem with roms, feel free to buy the Famicom disks nevertheless....

[GohanX]

I dunno, man. There's a certain indescribable joy you get inserting and flipping the disks and listening to the sounds the drive makes. You can't emulate that!

[dave4shmups]

It's easy to replace and the belts are easily available as well, but using an Everdrive cart is SO MUCH easier. And if you have a problem with roms, feel free to buy the Famicom disks nevertheless....

OK, thanks for that info!

[kamiboy]

Knowing how fragile floppy like storage solutions are I'd say the belt is the least of your worries.

[leonk]

Not sure why so much love for famicom based systems here. Yes, lots less up front work to get clean AV out but lots of extra work (using converters) if you're entrenched in 72 pin carts rather than 60. I'd prefer to pay upfront to get a good system and then have nes games work straight without using a converter with all the games I own. If I had only famicom games than no doubt I'd be playing on a famicom top loader, but I don't.

I have a game genie and a GAR and play nes games. I can't imagine using a converter and have it stick a foot over my system. As for ever drive, how different is it front other fpga based devices where a lot of the more exotic or complex mappers aren't supported? (ie retroUSB)

[Fudoh]

It's a little more compatible right now, but eventually I see better support. Another reason for the ED is that the Powerpak tends to cause visible jailbars on RGB modded systems, while the ED does not.

And of course the ED is available in Famicom and NES formats, which makes it your #1 choice for an AV Famicom anyway.

[ApolloBoy]

but lots of extra work (using converters)

A simple converter constitutes "lots of extra work"? Really?

[Ed Oscuro]

Some solutions (if you actually route the extra sound through a NES) require finding the expansion port, breaking the cover off, and finding the right pins and connecting to them, hopefully using something like this.

[leonk]

but lots of extra work (using converters)

A simple converter constitutes "lots of extra work"? Really?

Has you seen how silly an nes cart + game genie + converter + famicom look? Who has that much space in their AV rack? Also, not all converters are made the same. Some don't map all the pins (ran into this one trying to play ff2 famicom on nes. Middle pins for chr ram enable was missing!!)

Again, I can get the same AV quality out of an AV modded nes top loader as famicom top loader. So why not use the system that was made for the majority of games you play?

[ApolloBoy]

Has you seen how silly an nes cart + game genie + converter + famicom look? Who has that much space in their AV rack?

Sure, that setup would be cumbersome but then again, so is trying to use an FDS through a converter on either NES. You can't even use an FDS on a front loader unless you remove the top or get one of those uber-rare Family Adaptor converters which have the connector poke out from the cart door. Personally, I have a desk as part of my setup so I don't have to worry about height clearance issues. You do realize that the top loader with a cart inserted also takes up a bit of vertical space, right? It gets worse if you have one of those Game Genie passthroughs too.

Also, not all converters are made the same. Some don't map all the pins (ran into this one trying to play ff2 famicom on nes. Middle pins for chr ram enable was missing!!)

Then it's simply a matter of finding the right converter. I use a Family Converter with mine which works with everything I've thrown at it and it only needed a minor modification to get external audio with the PowerPak (which I don't own anymore as I have an Everdrive N8 now).

Again, I can get the same AV quality out of an AV modded nes top loader as famicom top loader.

I assume by "famicom top loader" you mean the AV Fami so that's what I'll go with, since all Famicoms are top loading. As someone who's AV modded a number of top loaders, I still have to say that the AV Fami has better video quality than a modded top loader; it comes close but I would still take the AV Fami over it.

So why not use the system that was made for the majority of games you play?

I actually own more Famicom games than I do NES games these days so that holds true for the Fami in my case. Really, in terms of unmodded solutions, an AV Fami with a converter is the way to go. You get the reliability of the top loader with the video quality of the front loader and you get to play the best of both worlds. The only other system that would come close would be the Twin Fami since you get a built-in FDS, but the AV Fami has it beat in terms of video quality and physical size.