Strider 2: Future Ninja Godliness

[Skykid]

I'm sure this guy mortars you or drops something when the target appears. If you're playing via emu maybe a texture or some graphics are missing here? Noone else playing this?

That's what it looks like. But it's weird because it snaps me the second I kill him, no matter how I do it, and even if I'm on the move, jumping, whatever. Weird.

Okay dudes and dudettes, I now have a copy on the way. Excited to finally play this. Love Strider and Osman, so I dunno why I never bought it before. Fool's move on my part, obviously. Hopefully I'll be able to join in in a week or so.

Get involved. Satisfaction guaranteed.

[EmperorIng]

Useless bump incoming:

All right, I'll bite. While I never particularly liked the look of Strider 2 (bad 3D mmmm), and I'm pretty unsure of how 'fun' it actually is, I'm willing to give a decent platformer a shot.

Does every PS1 copy come with the first Strider on it? That would be ideal, because I'd still be getting one of tha best platformers evar. I say this because I seem to recall the major thing about the release being Strider 2's disc having Strider, and Strider's disc having Strider 2 on it.

[BIL]

Does every PS1 copy come with the first Strider on it?

There's only the one print run of NTSC-U Strider 2: a two disc set with Strider 2 and the Strider 1 "bonus disc*." If it doesn't have both discs, you're getting shafted. Tell the motherfuckers "TAKE ME TO YOUR BOSS."

The packaging is one of those jewel cases that looks like a single disc game, but contains a double-sided spindle for the two discs.

(*actually, in Japan the set is explicitly titled "Strider Hiryu 1 & 2," but OLD GAMEZ stigma presumably led Capcom to downplay the first game's inclusion to a mere bonus in the West).

[Ed Oscuro]

maybe that 'splains why Capcom reverse-labeled the games, too. "Maybe nobody will notice there's a first Strider game if we put the Strider 2 game on it!" But was the game disc on top still Strider 1?

[BIL]

But was the game disc on top still Strider 1?

Good question - I wish I could recall! I know in the NTSCJ ver, the first game's disc (with a massive numeral "1" on it) goes on the front cover side of the double-disc case. As you'd expect, the second game's disc (with a massive numeral "2" on it) goes on the rear cover side!

Maybe there was a critical brainfuck at the pressing plant when they tried transposing this horizontal left-to-right logic to the vertically-stacked NTSCU set, once Strider 1 had been banished to the cupboard under the stairs in a cardboard box labeled "BOUNS." (exhibit a)

"1 comes before 2, but we must obfuscate the existence of 1. Hmm..."

[Ed Oscuro]

"1 comes before 2, but we must obfuscate the existence of 1. Hmm..."

Clearly Microsoft has learned from these early, failed, rituals of darkness.

[EmperorIng]

Well, I'm going to see just how trustful you loony Strider 2 fans are. Ordered my copy because I'm seriously fixing for a good platformer.

Again, at least I get the original Strider along with it. Should look nice on the ol' Trinitron.

[BIL]

Credibility is on the line! Just remember, if you don't like it it's because you suck. ;3

It's not an especially polarising game. If you like ninja sidescrollers with large-ish movelists, tight controls and lots of up-close killing like Hagane and The Super Shinobi II you'll almost certainly get some enjoyment from it. Even if you don't cotton onto the controls/engine you're left with some neat one-time setpieces. The meat of the game is in speed-killing everyone and everything in your path, though, with navigation more about scaling walls and grappling across ceilings than nailing precision jumps.

There's one hell of a platformer setpiece at the start of the battleship raid, at least.

[Ganelon]

I don't get the complaints about areas being too short and disjarring. I thought most folks here were Treasure fans and welcomed one segment after another compared to monotone areas with rehashed backgrounds. Variety is a big reason Bloodlines is my favorite Castlevania and Hard Corps is my favorite Contra.

And the reason the 3D polygons aren't that painful when you play Strider Hiryu 2 is because there are enough colorful 2D elements that look great.

[trap15]

I thought most folks here were Treasure fans

You thought wrong :V

[Ed Oscuro]

Treasure's best game is ruined by finger-killing N64 pad use

[EmperorIng]

What's funny is that for a second I thought you were talking about Mischief Makers.

[BIL]

I don't get the complaints about areas being too short and disjarring.

As a big fan of both games, it's not that S2's segmented levels are inherently wrong. It's more that S1's contiguous environments are a huge part of that game's effect - the defining part, I'd say. Each stage unfolds as a miniature, complete adventure with setpieces appearing and resolving seamlessly. S2's loss of that panorama in favour of discrete scenes linked by the stage's theme is inevitably striking.

I don't consider it a net loss, since besides S2's episodic stages often being highly cinematic in their own right (see: Balrog), what it concedes in the presentation of a lone ninja trekking across treacherous landscapes it gains in the control of Hiryuu. He now actually moves and responds like the superhumanly agile, aggressive and impossible to pin down killer he's meant to be.



Obviously I'd like both aspects in the same game, but having them on complementing discs isn't a bad compromise.

Addendum - fuck Strider 2's Boost/Bomb though, it really sucks at both a mechanical and aesthetic level. I just ignore it and manfully consider its usage a mark of weakness. Don't get hit and you won't lose the power sword. Osu motherfucker!

[Ed Oscuro]

Addendum - fuck Strider 2's Boost/Bomb

Yeah, I also ignore it. Nice summary of the differences between the two games, I think you really nailed it.

Also it should be said that given the hardware S2 is running on, I'm not sure it would have been feasible to have visuals as detailed as the level segments seen here, while also retaining the level length of Strider 1. RAM is going to be limited, and for this polygonal game that actually matters. It's the return of the hardware limitations the designer talked about the CPS freeing developers from.

[Ghegs]

Besides Stage 0, are there any notable differences between Strider 2's PS1 port and the arcade original?

[Ed Oscuro]

There's been some discussion about the PS1 having a bit of slowdown and stuff, BIL will know.

[trap15]

If anyone has the PS1 version, mind testing out a HARD FREEZE bug I found in the arcade version?

While on the ground, walk (not run) sideways, and hit A+B at the same time. Or hang on a wall and climb up/down and hit A+B at the same time.
You need to be moving when you press the two, so don't hit all 3 at once; get moving and then hit A+B.

The arcade version will just lock up and require a reset. Did some tracing, and it's actually a stack overflow

[CMoon]

There's been some discussion about the PS1 having a bit of slowdown and stuff, BIL will know.

The slowdown on the PS1 version (only version I have played) comes from using the boost and during a few of the bosses, but it is the combination of both that turns the game into blighttown. For all the arguments made against using boost, this is actually the strongest since during certain bosses you are actually increasing your chance of getting hit--slow down becomes significant enough that inputs like slides and jumps don't always register.

This game came out during that wonderful period when the PSX was still viable and the DC was running strong; a port of this to the DC would have solved all these problems and we'd all be talking about how awesome Strider 2 was. Alas.

[BIL]

If anyone has the PS1 version, mind testing out a HARD FREEZE bug I found in the arcade version?

Interesting, will have a go! You'd think Capcom caught that during porting, but you never know...

As CMoon says, the main shortcomings of the port are slowdown 1) when bombing 2) during the more massive boss battles and 3) especially both. Bombing is by far the bigger offender, and besides, do you play ninja games to cover the screen in fruit rollup lasers? HELL NO You wanna whip out your sword and slice a whooole lotta brand new assholes! ^_~

Otherwise the port runs fine. It's not like PS1 G-Darius where it's in perpetual slowdown with the occasional return to full speed on empty screens.

[BIL]

If anyone has the PS1 version, mind testing out a HARD FREEZE bug I found in the arcade version?

While on the ground, walk (not run) sideways, and hit A+B at the same time. Or hang on a wall and climb up/down and hit A+B at the same time.
You need to be moving when you press the two, so don't hit all 3 at once; get moving and then hit A+B.

The arcade version will just lock up and require a reset. Did some tracing, and it's actually a stack overflow

I'm without my consoles atm, so I grabbed an NTSCJ Strider Hiryuu 1 & 2 ISO and did my damndest to trigger a freeze in pSX v1.13. I guess A = slash B = jump and C = bomb, right trap? I tried hitting the variant you suggested and several others while both walking left and right, and climbing up and down. No freezes. Just to make sure, I mapped a single controller button to both slash and jump and repeated the same movements while tapping it - still nothing, Hiryuu just jumps forward or comes off the wall while slashing once. Hopefully Capcom caught that, it'd really blow. Were there any bugfixes or revisions of the PCB, I wonder?

[system11]

Stuff all that. For my money, this is the best Strider - better than the original and Cannon Dancer. It's just such a beautiful game visually and to play, and the presentation is immense (that art... pure sex.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

[null1024]

This game came out during that wonderful period when the PSX was still viable and the DC was running strong; a port of this to the DC would have solved all these problems and we'd all be talking about how awesome Strider 2 was. Alas.

On the other hand, the port to the PS1 was a much lower effort job than to the DC, thanks to the arcade board being essentially a PS1 with more RAM and faster CPU.


Also, am I the only person who likes the 3D in Strider 2? Maybe it's just my fondness for mid-90s 3D showing up again.

[jepjepjep]

I think they are implying that the arcade version would be on Naomi if they went the Dreamcast route, so it would have better 3D stuff. The 2D sprite work is great. This is one of those games that could really benefit from an HD remake, too bad it'll never happen.

I've been playing the PS1 version over the past couple of days. It's a lot of fun and a great game, but I still think Osman >= Strider 1 > Strider 2. The controls in Osman are awesome imo. They ditched the fixed-trajectory jumping and really animated the character well. All of the little nuances of movement are really great including the sliding, running, slide-to-run, and the shadow power-up effect. Strider 1 has tight controls, but unforgiving because of the large player sprite and fixed jump trajectory. What it lacks in mechanics it makes up in cinematics and aesthetics. Strider 2 has more ninja moves, but I think the controls are still a little funky. They kept the fixed jump trajectory, but included a double jump to allow you to change direction in-air. I guess I'm not a big fan of the double-jump mechanic, I didn't like it too much in Super GnG either. Also, the way he jumps sideways off of walls seems unnatural. Aside from those little quirks (and ignoring the boost), the controls are great. Don't get me wrong, the game is very nice. It's better than 99% of PS1 games, but I just don't think it's as good as its predecessor.

[BIL]

You can also immediately cancel a jump's forward momentum in Strider 2 by pressing the reverse direction, and cancel its vertical gain too by using a quick air combo (the AC is a very handy "air brake" in general). Sounds minor, but it's hugely more flexible than the first game where you're instantly committed to a forward jump, no exceptions. I think the devs were deliberately trying to avoid completely abandoning the first game's fixed jumps, so you'd still have some accountability.

Was playing the PS1 port of the original, and hey - they cleaned up that speck of sprite garbage that appears near Hiryuu's head while he's walking up steep inclines! So much for arcade perfect you Capcom hacks!

[jepjepjep]

You can also immediately cancel a jump's forward momentum in Strider 2 by pressing the reverse direction

Thanks, I didn't notice that. So you can slow momentum in air, but you can't reverse direction.

[BIL]

Not just slow momentum, all but kill it, though vertical height will be reached as normal (for a running forward jump, though, you'll still travel some distance and will need an air combo to stop dead - but those are a lot harder to do accidentally, and if you do, you'll probably want to just double-jump back the way you came).

The air control is very handy if you're in a situation like this one, where a forward jump will be instant suicide into a pit:



And if you're really in a pinch, an air combo will instantly kill a jump's forward motion and vertical climb (even a running forward jump). This is also a handy offensive property of the AC - you can perform rapid successive ones by jumping, executing the AC immediately, landing and repeating. Very handy if you're underneath a boss!

In Strider 1 news... good grief. Where do people even get the idea that the PS1 port of Strider is "based on the Mega Drive version" ? I've seen it on this forum and a few other places over the years, guess I shouldn't be surprised Youtube brings the goods too. Fortunately Bloodreign contributed some much-needed sense.

I guess casual fans remember the excellent MD port as even better than it was, closing the already relatively small gap between it and the PCB, then proceed to trash the PS1 port for... being based on the PCB.

[Bloodreign]

I've noticed Youtube commenters rarely research anything before running their yaps, if they had played enough Strider on Genesis and arcade, they'd know the difference. Sadly YT is full of people like that.

[CMoon]

I guess casual fans remember the excellent MD port as even better than it was, closing the already relatively small gap between it and the PCB, then proceed to trash the PS1 port for... being based on the PCB.

Yeah, it is interesting to me that the PS1 port is very close to arcade perfect, but also not identical. It is apparently an attempt at an improvement. You mentioned one example involving sprites, but I remember noticing that the PS1 port actually had working rank such that as you were playing (and wooping the game's ass) it would start getting vicious in some areas (like the bomb drop in stage 2.)

When I wrote a strider faq back in the day, I noted some of the differences I saw between the psx version and emulation. Whether they are all legitimate, I don't know: http://www.gamefaqs.com/arcade/583860-s ... /faqs/8402

[EmperorIng]

I've seen it on this forum and a few other places over the years, guess I shouldn't be surprised Youtube brings the goods too.

I certainly hope the PS1 port i just purchased doesn't have the music slowed down like that. I guess PAL release? Or maybe I'm crazy - it sounds like the music is slower.

[Domino]

I dunno why I guess I found the atmosphere in the first game to be a lot better than the sequel. Strider 2 does have better controls than the first game but I found the game to be very unmemorable. Most of us might still remember things from Strider 1. Stage 2 when fighting the big Mech Gorill, the intro of Stage 1 most of us still remember, and the voice acting between stages.