Shmups you won't play?

chimpp · Post by **chimpp** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:47 pm

I really want to enjoy Psikyo shmups. I love the high-contrast graphics, unique Psikyo artwork, and the variety of weapons and ships. But I must agree that the bullets are just too hard to evade because the bullet-sprays are coming from multiple enemies at once and they're too fast. However, Sengoku Ace Ep. II is probably the easiest (and therefore) the most playable Psikyo game.

1944 is another unplayable game. It's a pity that even Raizing could make such a terrible game. There just isn't any variety in each of its 15 levels.

I only play Radiant Silvergun less than once a year. I'm afraid I'll get bored of it if I play it more often. Problem was, when I first bought it on ebay many years ago, it was the best game I had ever played. I logged in so many hours into this game that I started to get bored of it. My thinking was (and still is) that it would be sacrilegious to get bored of a masterpiece like RS. So when I did finally grow tired of it, I exiled myself from the game. I can't remember when I last played it. So it can technically be listed as an "unplayable" game for me...at least for now.

I've only played Cho-Aniki (PS1), Night Raid, Macross: DYRL, Philosoma, Edge of Skyhigh (more like a rail-shooter and not a shmup) and XII Stag once. Probably won't play those ever again. I don't think I'll sell them, though. Might be worth something in the future--especially Cho-aniki. I have had Psyvariar 2 (PS2) for about a month but haven't even played it. I don't think my PS2 Swap Disc will let it boot past the memory card check after the Skonec logo.

CVM · Post by **CVM** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:49 pm

Dandy J wrote:edit: that is unless your 2nd/3rd stage order is determined by something? I am under the impression that your character selection only determines which stage you get first.

The 1st level is dictated by your character choice. For the 2nd and 3rd levels, if you select your character with the A button it's random, if you use B you get one first, C you get the other. I forget what stages specifically for each character, but you can choose a specific order with B and C.

Smraedis · Post by **Smraedis** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:57 pm

I've never liked the Gradius games, but I do play them.. the least.

chimpp · Post by **chimpp** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:07 pm

I see two types of Gradius games--the old school games and Gradius V, developed by Treasure. I haven't played the ones on the GBA, but I think that the pinnacle of the "old school" Gradius episodes would be Gradius Gaiden. Each Gradius got better and better, but in my opinion they weren't great--not even Gradius IV on the PS2. But if you haven't played Gradius Gaiden, then you're missing what all the Gradius games should've been. Gradius V is quite a departure, while still being able to balance the aspects of the old with the new, turning it into one of the best horizontal shmups ever made. I only play the old school Gradius games to further appreciate the history and the making of Gradius Gaiden and Gradius V. But aside from those two excellent versions, Gradius I-IV aren't all that playable.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:09 pm

CVM wrote:For the 2nd and 3rd levels, if you select your character with the A button it's random, if you use B you get one first, C you get the other. I forget what stages specifically for each character, but you can choose a specific order with B and C.

You are the wind beneath my wings.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:41 pm

EDIT: Criticism of use of the word 'gay' deleted.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:00 am

!
Another "crybaby" thread...
Basically, all I'm reading here is... "I hate[insert game name here] because its too hard for me".

Then the name calling/insults insue...wonderfull.
Proof right there that this place ain't no better than Gamefaqs. But at one time it was.

Perhaps if people spent more time playing games, rather then complaining about em...

chimpp · Post by **chimpp** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:36 am

Another "crybaby" thread...
Basically, all I'm reading here is... "I hate[insert game name here] because its too hard for me".

An extremely difficult game makes it much harder to enjoy. Some of us inferiors aren't skilled enough to 1CC a vertical shmup, so we can't enjoy a game like Batsugun or Zero Gunner 2 (for example) as much. I've tried practicing but one thing is clearly evident: I don't and never will have the reflexes for these demanding games.

If this is a "crybaby" thread, then I consider this thread as a way for the average gamer to discuss with others their experiences with difficult games. But really, this thread is just about games that are just unplayable for some reason or another, whether it be because of the difficulty, bad sound, poor artwork, or a litany of scantily-clad male characters (cho-aniki). If someone just says, "I hate such-and-such" and offers no other explanation, try asking them to elaborate rather than shunning them altogether. You may learn that some of the posters' seemingly black-and-white comments have some valid opinions to back up their complaints. After which, a healthy discussion from both sides can take place to discuss the pros and cons of the game.

However, this is the internet and I'm just practicing some very wishful thinking. Civilized behavior on the internet tends to go the way of chivalry in real life.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 2:48 am

TWITCHDOCTOR wrote:Another "crybaby" thread...
...
Then the name calling/insults insue...wonderfull.

IRONY

Perhaps if people spent more time playing games, rather then complaining about em...

Why should people spend time trying to like games that they just get no enjoyment out of? I don't like the original R-Type because it absolutely bores me to death. Yes, it's very difficult, but it's not the kind of difficulty that I enjoy. I prefer dodging bullets as they come at me rather than memorizing where they're going to come from in the first place to have any chance of survival. I could memorize the entire game, master the thing, and I still wouldn't get any enjoyment out of it, so tell me, why should I bother?

chimpp · Post by **chimpp** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:07 am

Why should people spend time trying to like games that they just get no enjoyment out of? I don't like the original R-Type because it absolutely bores me to death. Yes, it's very difficult, but it's not the kind of difficulty that I enjoy.

There are redeeming qualities in almost any game, even if they are--for the most part--rather unplayable. Especially if you laid down some serious cash for a game, you would want to get your money's worth out of it. I bought Batsugun. I wanted to add it to my Saturn shmup collection. Terribly difficult game. Intense weaponry made it hard to see the bullets. Enemy bullets were too fast to dodge for this old man (me). Artwork is horrendous (there's something about that particular anime style that I just don't like). I wouldn't feel right paying for a game like this and just dismissing it after a single play because I was getting slaughtered every 5 seconds. I played over and over again, hoping to get a feel and try to master the game. Well, it never happened. At least I know I got my money's worth. Not a terrible game, but I certainly wouldn't play it again unless I felt particularly daring.

As for Zero Gunner 2, it's also extremely hard for me after the first couple levels (even on the easiest difficulty levels). But what keeps me coming back are the gorgeous graphics, enemies, and that I'm a sucker for selectable ships. Everytime I play (which doesn't happen all too often), I know I won't get any better. I just know that I'd play this if I were in the mood for a shmup that lets me pivot 360-degrees or one with great polygonal graphics.

By the way, the original R-Type is one of my all-time favorites. I can still pick up the game today--with its outdated graphics and slow pacing--and have a blast. I first played it on the Master System when it was released. It had three things going for it that I had never experienced: it was my first shmup on a console, the force pod added a whole new dimension, and having a charged shot was new to me. When I play it today, I marvel at its level design, feel nostalgia for being my first shmup, and appreciating the unique features which were then copied in later shmups. I can compare it to R-Type Final in that the original had much more inspired level designs than its ultimate successor. I can still play the Master System version to this day (even when the arcade-perfect version in MAME exists) because of the hidden level not found in any other incarnation of the original R-Type.

So, for me my enjoyment in this classic is mostly based on nostalgia and built around a framework based on my experiences with its sequels.

toiletduk · Post by **toiletduk** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:09 am

All of these I have played, but will never touch again.

194x
Air Gallet (only good thing is the voice clip on the title screen)
Sengoku Blade
Sol Divide
Anything made by Treasure, Triangle, or Irem
Giga Wing 2
Dangun Feveron
ESP RaDe
Metal Slug *
Contra *
Gunstar * (no pun intended)
Any of the millions of blasphemous ports of Space Harrier that don't have analog control

There's probably other stuff I forgot, but the above all make me shake with anger.

[edit: added Air Gallet]

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:10 am

Oh, I know R-Type has plenty of good qualities. They just don't make me enjoy the actual product any more. I have some fondness for the first boss, but that's about it.

And oddly, I love the Gradius series, even though it gets many of the same complaints.

toiletduk · Post by **toiletduk** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:11 am

I don't regard Gradius as the best series of all time, or even great, but it was my first, and I have a lot of love for it. 3 does stand out as spectacular, though. A rare game is that mean to me, and I love it. :D

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:12 am

Battle Garegga, OMG, has any1else played dis game? The rank is WHACK, the whole game is a pie of flaming CRAP. If you like this game, I will FIGHT you since you must be an ANIMAL and ANIMALS need to be DISCIPLINED.

*Note* - Sarcasm

chimpp · Post by **chimpp** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:20 am

It's interesting how some of our taste in shmups are direct opposites of others. Zinger mentioned how Psikyo games have terrible design and graphics. His avatar is a character from Batsugun, which I feel the same about (terrible design and graphics). Sethsez doesn't really like R-Type and the Gradius series but I love it R-Type and really don't enjoy the Gradius games (except for Gradius Gaiden and Gradius V).

As for Battle Garegga, many will agree with me here that it is probably one of the hardest shmups, if not the hardest of them all. However, I really like the game, even if I can't 1CC past the first level without using bombs. It's one of those games where you know you're going to die often. The trick is to die as little as possible, which I feel fine doing. I'm a sucker for multiple ship selection and wingmen, so this game is fine by me.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:31 am

I just can't stand the first 3 games in the 194X series. FAR too long and tedious for my personal tastes.

Other then those 3, the Choaniki series and Sexy Parodius there's no need for raunchy crap like that in a shmup

Nemo · Post by **Nemo** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:36 am

Sexy Parodius is a riot, and besides the raccoon with his junk all out there, I didn't find much raunch. And actually Choaniki is pretty funny too, "MENZ BEam!".

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:37 am

dave4shmups wrote:Other then those 3, the Choaniki series and Sexy Parodius there's no need for raunchy crap like that in a shmup

hahahahahahahahaha, yeah, bikinis and speedos will be the downfall of us all

Have you played Sexy Parodius? It's as raunchy as a Travel Channel special.

Nemo wrote:the raccoon with his junk all out there

That would be a tanuki, and it's not even supposed to be raunchy. It's a traditional thing.

toiletduk · Post by **toiletduk** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:43 am

dave4shmups wrote:I just can't stand the first 3 games in the 194X series. FAR too long and tedious for my personal tastes.

Other then those 3, the Choaniki series and Sexy Parodius there's no need for raunchy crap like that in a shmup

Sexy Parodius is more along the lines of mild fanservice (appropriate for kids, even), but it has some of the best gameplay in the Gradius series, with missions to complete within the levels that determine what level you go to next. Quite neat.

Cho Aniki is just shameless implied gay sex, though, and generally on top of a bad game (the fighter for the SFC wasn't terrible, though).

SAM · Post by **SAM** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:48 am

Dandy J wrote:I tried Gradius Gaiden and 1 lifed to stage 4, then proceeded to waste every one of my 9 credits worth of lives trying to get past the 2nd to last checkpoint. One time I even made it past that whole part and ran into one of the goddamn powerup ships, and it sent me all the way back to the same checkpoint.

Then one time I got past it and couldn't beat the double moai head boss with the 2 lives or so I had left.

I am stuck at shumps, but even me can 1 life to stage 6 Boss parade at Normal in that game, the game is not that hard and unfair as you think it is.

I think you cannot beat the Stage 4 Double Moai Head boss is not a matter of skill. What ship/weapon are you using when you faces the Stage 4 boss? I myself use the Vic Viper with double and missles. This help shooting down those circles the boss firing at you. Try switching to muti-direction firing weapons before meeting stage 4 boss, that should help.

I am saying this because you sould like you have difficuty fighting against the Stage 4 boss.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:17 am

SAM wrote:
Dandy J wrote:I tried Gradius Gaiden and 1 lifed to stage 4, then proceeded to waste every one of my 9 credits worth of lives trying to get past the 2nd to last checkpoint. One time I even made it past that whole part and ran into one of the goddamn powerup ships, and it sent me all the way back to the same checkpoint.

Then one time I got past it and couldn't beat the double moai head boss with the 2 lives or so I had left.
I am stuck at shumps, but even me can 1 life to stage 6 Boss parade at Normal in that game, the game is not that hard and unfair as you think it is.

I think you cannot beat the Stage 4 Double Moai Head boss is not a matter of skill. What ship/weapon are you using when you faces the Stage 4 boss? I myself use the Vic Viper with double and missles. This help shooting down those circles the boss firing at you. Try switching to muti-direction firing weapons before meeting stage 4 boss, that should help.

I am saying this because you sould like you have difficuty fighting against the Stage 4 boss.

Give it up. The man has convinced himself that Horizontal shmups are gay, and thus not worthy of his time. The best suggestion you could ever give him is to TATE the goddarn game and set it to hardest difficulty while playing the second loop. You see good games are only vertical and bullet patternized (Cave et al games.)

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:19 am

sethsez wrote:
TWITCHDOCTOR wrote:Another "crybaby" thread...
...
Then the name calling/insults insue...wonderfull.
IRONY

Perhaps if people spent more time playing games, rather then complaining about em...
Why should people spend time trying to like games that they just get no enjoyment out of? I don't like the original R-Type because it absolutely bores me to death. Yes, it's very difficult, but it's not the kind of difficulty that I enjoy. I prefer dodging bullets as they come at me rather than memorizing where they're going to come from in the first place to have any chance of survival. I could memorize the entire game, master the thing, and I still wouldn't get any enjoyment out of it, so tell me, why should I bother?

Tell you why you should bother?

Well Seth, I really cannot tell you what games to enjoy...and I'm not trying to "single out" anyone here.
If you really cannot stand playing a game, then thats fine. All I'm saying is, don't dislike something because its "hard", or offers a challenge greater than you expected.
I know, that you know, where I'm coming from here, I'm just speaking to those who really are trying to "get their moneys worth" by 1CC a game.

Keep in mind though, that there are some shmups that are hard, and you may never complete them. (1CC anyways...)
The challenge however, can always beckon you to come back...as if taunting you, so to speak.

All I'm saying here is, question yourself,(it may not be the games fault) and make sure you're up to the challenge...if not, then perhaps another day you can go for it.

There are quite a few shmups I don't like to play...its not because they're hard, but maybe I'm just not ready to dedicate some serious time to learning all their little quirks, etc.

Most games do require some serious "learning time" though...so don't expect any game to "hold your hand".

I knew this thread would become a "pissing contest" sooner or later...lets not let it get any worse, ok?
Intelligent discussion is more than welcome...we can do without "Horizontal Shmups are Gay" type shit, and "All Psikyo games Suck", because I doubt those who say this type of shit even know what the fuck they are talking about entirely.

Zweihander · Post by **Zweihander** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:54 am

Cybernoid - simply god-awful.

The Hunt for Red October - why the fuck did they feel the need to make a game out of this? great movie, but god DAMN, what a horrible game...

Space Shot - worst Thunder Force clone EVER.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:06 am

Damn guys don't turn this into a flamewar. I don't even really like horizontals, so I'm not going to put much effort into playing them. Don't take my opinion as "Gradius Gaiden sucks", I just suck at them so I don't play them.

Marc · Post by **Marc** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:32 am

Cybernoid - simply god-awful.

Damn man, you're pissing on an 8-bit classic!

All I'm saying is, don't dislike something because its "hard", or offers a challenge greater than you expected.

See your point Twitch, but sometimes the challenge just isn't enjoyable enough to rise to. Garegga kicks my ass but I love it. RS... just feels like homework to me. I have such limited play time these days that I can't bring myself to persevere with any game just because I know I 'should' like it.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:46 am

TWITCHDOCTOR wrote:All I'm saying is, don't dislike something because its "hard", or offers a challenge greater than you expected.

I don't think anyone is saying this, really. The vast majority of us here like difficult games, just not what some of us perceive to be the "wrong" kind of difficult. Like, I may hate R-Type, but I love Gradius III arcade. Plenty of people feel exactly the opposite, but for exactly the same reasons.

we can do without ... "All Psikyo games Suck"

I also hate most Psikyo games.

The bullet patterns leave me cold, the medal chaining system is absolutely retarded, and I hate the art style in the Strikers series. Gunbird 2 is the only game of theirs I enjoy somewhat, and I don't even know why.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:43 pm

sethsez wrote: I also hate most Psikyo games.

The bullet patterns leave me cold, the medal chaining system is absolutely retarded, and I hate the art style in the Strikers series. Gunbird 2 is the only game of theirs I enjoy somewhat, and I don't even know why.

Ayin? i think there are a few sites with GB2's endings, the 2P mode with Ayin and other male characters are hilarious, pure Choaniki style

Diabollokus · Post by **Diabollokus** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:19 pm

Bio ship paladin is something I refuse to look at again sludge barges do not make good ships especially when they keep getting bigger.

master system and spectrum shmups have em on roms don't play em I know they're classics but they're too old for me.

Elixir · Post by **Elixir** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:32 pm

Since this went well, I'll add some.

Mars Matrix - What? This is a shmup? Hardly, you go around doing your best to dodge bullets, and if you can't, you consume them. Either way, you're going to end up dying. What a waste of $25 this was, my DC has a heart attack at the sight of it.

Giga Wing 1 + 2 - Basically the same deal as the above, but add annoying music for the character select screen. Then, add a bunch of patterns, and a score of 947324812907319283238 for a limit, and this is what you have.

I'm sure there's more, but I can agree on people not liking the original Raiden, as it's really annoying in some, or rather, most aspects.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:15 pm

Guardian Force - I wanted to like this game but it bored me to tears. I don't think in the 4 or so years I owned this game, I played more than one credit in a sitting.