Too many shooters at once?

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ChainsawGuitarSP
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by ChainsawGuitarSP »

XoPachi wrote:I do play with autofire not as rapidly as I saw somewhere else though (don't know how to get it that fast).
That's not autofire you're using; it's the game's default rate of fire.
XoPachi wrote:I didn't know that, but I doubt it's that big a difference. I'll still try. But won't bosses take much longer increasing the chances of death?
Actually, powerups do not affect rank nearly as much as people think. The problem is HOW you powerup; wave shots are incredibly weak on their own, you simply need white bullets on them to deal the most damage since they don't pass through enemies. Also, DO stay as far back as possible; when you level up to homing missiles that's where most of your damage will be coming from, and they need space to do their work.
XoPachi wrote:Secret 1 ups don't matter to me since I'm not trying to die period in that game specifically. Losing everything absolutely bounds me to bomb spamming and less killing power which means more dying.
Yeah, but if this ends up happening at the final boss you're pretty much guaranteed to win anyway unless it's Storm Causer, Vermilion Coronatus or Great Thing.
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Erppo
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by Erppo »

XoPachi wrote:I want to find out how to do it myself rather than blatantly copy someone else's hard work. THAT to me is disrespectful. Just carbon copying someone else's routine makes me feel like trash. Why would I pride 1CC's I didn't fully create myself?
You know the guys whose replays you would be watching pretty surely came up with their strategies by copying at least dozen other people. But whatever, that's your own choice of handicaps.
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Randorama
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by Randorama »

I hope you don't mind me asking, XoPachi, but how old are you?
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Deca
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by Deca »

A lot of your mindset is fairly common to beginning players, the sooner you break out of it the faster you'll improve and start enjoying the games more.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by moozooh »

Yeah, those self-imposed moral codes of playing the games "right" only hinder progress and make you feel worse. Strict result-oriented approach gives much better results; even if the first few 1CCs will feel cheap, you'll gain enough skill to be able to partly wing your way through harder games afterwards.
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AntiFritz
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by AntiFritz »

Is half this forum dtp clones now? I swear I'm having a bad case of deja vu.
(not actually Strategy-related, moved to Shmups Chat, where I'm sure it will be warmly received)
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STG
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by STG »

You got a great selection of games to try and beat (or at least 1-loop), and I agree with everyone else: pick one that really jumps out at you and stick with just that. And credit feed. And watch replays for hints. For a first game, it does take time and some dedication, and you picked some tough games.

It used to take me quite a while, sometimes years, just to beat one loop when I first started with the genre ages ago. It's very normal. :D
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by KAI »

Same thing happened to me when i got all those SH-3 games with MAME. DDP and´Progeaar? playing a Tate then a Yoko and then a Tate again, that's not good for you.
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Marc
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by Marc »

XoPachi wrote:
stryc9 wrote:I'm pretty sure most of the shooters you listed are not easy 1CCs for a start.

Expecting to clear games like Giga Wing and Ketsui within the first week of play is quite an ask.

The only games I've cleared within the first week are DeathSmiles 1 and 2 (level 2 runs), Thunder Force III (Normal and Hard modes), and ummm.... that's it I believe. I could have taken DDP DFK down as well I reckon but since the game is so score obsessed I didn't bother pressing for the 1CC, and still haven't cleared it :|

Watch some YT vids as well to see the tricks people use to make those games easier for themselves, and hit the Strat section with specific questions about a particular part of a shmup your having difficulties with.
Oh god, I'll never 1CC a single Thunderforce. *x*
Watching YT vids makes me feel pathetic. I feel like I'm stealing other peoples' methods. Kinda like doing stuff on my own.
njiska wrote:Yeah, you need to take your time and just focus on one. Flirt with the others, but try to put like 80% of your shmup time in one.
I'm going to stick with Ketsui and maybe R-Type, but I see myself quitting the former very soon.
rancor wrote:It took me a little over a year to get my first 1cc. Don't rush it. It's such a great feeling because of the fact that it takes so much time and practice. I'm not saying to give up on all of those games, but what worked for me was to concentrate on one and learn it backwards and forwards. The only reason Gus gets his completes so quickly is that he puts in 5-6 hours per day. The rest of us don't have so much time .. I usually get a little less than 3-4 hours a week.


Well if this Gus person can do it, I should be able to. I have a lot of time right now I should have at the very least 1CCed DonPachi already, but I die at stage 3 and can't get it back together so I quit at the next death or right there and move to something else. The only game worth mentioning my 1CC was Mushihimesama Maniac, but does that count if it was iPhone? I doubt it.
Setting yourself a pretty high target there man. Whatever Gus' failings conversationally, he's fucking awesome at these games. Set your sights a tad lower to start with would be my first suggestion.
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Zaarock
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by Zaarock »

Yeah. It's good to remember that experience helps a lot with these games though, you'll be able to 1cc the "easier" games with much less effort than you expect once you've given the genre more time.

You don't need "natural talent" to get good at these games unless you're DTP or something but then you wouldn't enjoy them anyway so why play them.

If you really care that much about beating stuff quickly and efficiently, concentrate on one game.. but if you have more fun playing various games it can be more rewarding and increase your skills to the point where it's easy to approach new games or concentrate on working on a single one.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by NTSC-J »

XoPachi wrote:I used to watch replays and it still didn't help. I saw someone get and use hyper when trying to enter the hidden route in DFK. I got hyper the same way, but when I used it no matter how fast I was to blow the canisters I never got the hidden loop when using hyper. I assumed it was either a glitch the person did, or the game doesn't allow it. And after 2 hours of retries and seeing what happens if I don't activate hyper I concluded I just couldn't do it.
Watching a replay and just doing what they do without understanding everything they're trying to do will not always yield good results.
But, you guys are giving stuff I didn't even ask for!!1 >:V
For a thread on this forum I think it's actually been pretty OT, since you're obviously struggling with how to approach these games and there's good advice here. But to directly answer your question, yes, you're playing too many shooters at once. If you want good scores or just a 1CC, try to focus on one or two at a time.

I also think that for a beginner, you're expecting an awful lot. You refuse to credit feed or watch replays and you want to not just beat some games, but several of them at once, plus with lofty goals like two loops and no-missing Darius Gaiden. Just relax a bit and get comfortable with these games. They're a different genre than traditional console stuff in that they may not be as instantly gratifying and will take some patience and effort.

btw, my first 1CC's were Giga Wing 2 and Mars Matrix. Not that hard if you don't focus on scoring (although I did on GW2, but not at all on MM). They took three weeks apiece after a lot of effort, but once I beat one I was hooked. This was ten years ago, and now I've beaten around 70 shooters, but I'm still only an intermediate player with lots of room to improve.

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." Such is shmups.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by DEL »

NTSC-J wrote:
but I'm still only an intermediate player with lots of room to improve

Intermediate players don't get 357,017,530 2-ALL on Muchi Muchi Pork :lol:
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by Paradigm »

XoPachi wrote:And I also refuse to watch replays for the same reasons I refuse to copy school work. I want to find out how to do it myself rather than blatantly copy someone else's hard work. THAT to me is disrespectful. Just carbon copying someone else's routine makes me feel like trash. Why would I pride 1CC's I didn't fully create myself? That's how I see it.
So if you were in an arcade waiting for your turn and there was a good player playing in front of you, would you purposely look away so as not to pick up any tips/strategies?
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malchitos
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by malchitos »

malchitos wrote:Yeah the shmups you listed are pretty hard. Especially mars matrix...wow I love that game. I also notice R-type Leo in your list, you might want to drop back and try R-type(the original). I've never gotten an 1cc myself...I really don't have the time to devote to it.....but I come very close in R-type. It's one of those games where if you are all powered up...as long as you don't get hit....you're on fire.(I guess kinda like the gradius series)
XoPachi wrote: Honestly, I see a lot of bickering between Touhou fans and Cave fans about which is harder. After playing Mars...both sides are still easier than that game. Giga Wing too. Capcom didn't play. I just play Mars for shit's and giggles. I'll never even attempt to play it seriously. And R-Type 1? Are you kidding me? I have Dimensions and I'll never beat either game on one life. Never. I think Leo is the easiest R-Type. I could 1CC that if I stopped making stupid mistakes.
....................Really you think R-type Leo is easier? Maybe I should revisit that game. Yeah stupid mistakes are what get me too.
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DrTrouserPlank
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by DrTrouserPlank »

I'm definitely feeling the love here.
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FIL
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by FIL »

It's the last 2 levels in Leo that are hard, possibly made harder by the previous levels being pretty easy so you're not entirely prepared. Just savestate and practice the harder stages, I didn't do that and burnt myself out on the first 3 stages.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by MR_Soren »

XoPachi wrote:So I stopped watching and pissing myself off.
Well, maybe you need more practice before the replays will be of much value to you. Perhaps a lower scoring replay will be easier to learn from rather than watching the world record guys. My favorite Deathsmiles replay to watch scored 200 million rather than the 600 millions out there. I've not managed to pull off all of the techniques I've seen in replays, but I still learn a lot of things and know the more advanced techniques exist for when I am ready.

I didn't have any arcades anywhere around me growing up. Especially not with these games, so I'm not going to see eye to eye with that.
You really have no choice. These games were designed for the arcades and their collaborative culture. You can't pretend it doesn't exist, even if you've never experienced it. Besides, if you were not interested in receiving help from anybody, you wouldn't be posting here.

It's not like copying school work because these games are not just a test of knowledge. They are a competitive activity, and a good score requires both knowledge and execution. You've said yourself, you couldn't execute a lot of techniques you saw in videos. You'll also be modifying the routes you see to adjust for techniques you cannot pull off and what works best for you. Your scoring runs will be your own, regardless of where you may have gotten some ideas from. Also consider this: A pitcher in baseball won't refuse to throw a curve ball because he saw somebody else do it, but he still has to practice and get good at it before it becomes a part of his repertoire.

I am not completely unsympathetic to your situation. I refused to play Battle Garegga during an STGT event because I love that game so much I don't want to spoil everything I would have to spoil to play it competitively. That is a game I want to slowly experience and try to discover as much as I can myself. Unfortunately, life isn't long enough to do that with every game, so I would advise keeping a few games untainted by spoils and use every available advantage in others. The latter is especially important because doing this with at least one game will make you a stronger player and allow you to get the most out of other games.

EDIT: Well...I almost 1CCed DoDonPachi's 1st loop tonight. Bombs were my best friend, though. Q^Q
Good job. That's a start.
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DragonInstall
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by DragonInstall »

It really takes dedication to one shmup to 1cc in a timely fashion. Well unless you play some of the more easier ones, such as Akai Katana Shin, DFK 1.5 Strong mode, Mushihimesama BL normal, or Deathsmiles I / II. Those are the big name shmups that I found really easy to 1cc.

But stuff like Espgaluda II BL took me around 60 some hours of training... no joke.
Espgaluda III needs to happen.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by cuttingagent »

It seems like you're being pretty stubborn. The advice in this thread is all very good and you should not only use it, but stretch to understand why it's helpful. I'm probably at the same skill level as you or worse even, but I can see the reasoning in all this. Using several different practice techniques gives you a more dynamic skillset and makes the learning process easier. Not sure if you want advice from a scrub as well, but I'll offer it anyway.

You don't get through a brick wall by repeatedly slamming yourself against it. Find your way around it.

Once in awhile, don't play the game you're trying to 1cc for a week or more. Somehow when you come back to it you'll be better at it--though you may need some time to reorient yourself to it.

Sometimes, straight up don't pay attention to the game. Talk on the phone or listen to the radio or TEDtalks or something. Your run is not likely to be very good, but it's good for you in the long run.

Try to 9cc the game first, seriously. Then 6cc, 3cc, 1cc.

Listen to your elders.

Darius Gaiden is hard.

Don't forget to occasionally crank up the difficulty and play it that way for as long as you can. You try to get used to that, and when you go back to normal, you won't remember it having been so easy.

It's not *always* bad to play a lot of shooters. They will all increase your overall skills. Memorization is all good and well but you also need to work on reaction time and precision dodging and insertion. Also, you'll end up hating the music if you play the same game over and over, unless you're playing Touhou and in that case you'll have the shit stuck in your head all day. Your mate will die and you'll be at their funeral hearing Touhou flutes and shit.

Espgaluda is a great game to try to 1cc. That's the one I'm going for and it will be my first. Racking up scores is easy (when compared to chaining systems). And you can slow down the bullets in emergency situations (you have to budget your bullet-time, so the tradeoff is less scoring for more safety). It's also easier than the other CAVE games, and I'm glad it is, they need an entry-level title. Get it on MAME. The music is pretty good.

If you try to use your current strategy on Xexex you're going to wind up hating the game. It's a hori, a memo, it has a complex weapon system, uses checkpoints, and it's a hard game. This can be very frustrating. My advice is to start by just playing the game and enjoying it, it's quite beautiful.

Try to keep in mind, these arcade games were not designed for you to jam a quarter into and stomp your way through the entire game. They were designed to take your money, as much of it as possible, and in the shortest time interval possible so you'll walk away quickly and someone else will start pumping silver into it. Those that 1cc an arcade game are, in a way, cheating the system.

In short, be more flexible. Don't make excuses for only doing things a certain way, if you have other options and the ones you're using aren't working 100%, you're screwing yourself.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by XoPachi »

Well, my OP was answered. And that is helping considering how much better I've been doing better in DDP. On top of my little experience, I played for about 6 hours (throughout the day) yesterday. And I played it (until the E3 stream from about 7 this morning). As of now I can get to the 5th boss with only two deaths...bomb laser spamming of course. I've been playing this for about 2 and half solid weeks on top of DoDonPachi 4 on my Xbox since it launched in Europe.
malchitos wrote:....................Really you think R-type Leo is easier? Maybe I should revisit that game. Yeah stupid mistakes are what get me too.
Oh yes. Compared to Final, 1, and especially 3, it's way easier. I know I can eventually beat that on one credit.
Paradigm wrote:So if you were in an arcade waiting for your turn and there was a good player playing in front of you, would you purposely look away so as not to pick up any tips/strategies?
There's a difference between being around the game watching instinctively and consciously looking for gameplay. And if I was waiting, I'd most likely be doing something else until the audience disperses a bit depending on how big it is. So I suppose yes is the answer you want, but for reasons that other than what you think. I wouldn't look away out of being that stubborn, but to find something else to pass time.
Randorama wrote:I hope you don't mind me asking, XoPachi, but how old are you?
I will be 19 in a few months. I'm not new to this stuff, just bad. I've been playing shooters since I beat Gradius 3 and Super Nova as a kid. Not hard games, but everyone else still thought so. ^-^;
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dunpeal2064
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by dunpeal2064 »

Really, if you were in an arcade with another person playing the same obscure ass game you were, you wouldn't find watching their play interesting?

I love watching others shmup while waiting for my turn.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by Deca »

Yeah with that approach you won't be doing anything in a timely fashion. STGs are very community driven and the serious players are all looking to one another and replays to improve their own knowledge and skillbase. I don't study replays near as much as I should but I've still picked up invaluable insight that I likely would have never stumbled upon on my own.

At the same time I've found ways to improve on others paths and techniques to improve my own consistency. Unless you're actually going for the WR in a game a replay is just a starting point, it's not some script to follow frame by frame for instant success.

It's a lot easier to see what's happening in a game when you aren't playing it, you can focus on different things and see the big picture. Certain things will jump out at you in painfully obvious ways that you would have never noticed in the middle of an actual run. If you're going to refuse to study the replays of others at least study your own.
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XoPachi
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by XoPachi »

dunpeal2064 wrote:Really, if you were in an arcade with another person playing the same obscure ass game you were, you wouldn't find watching their play interesting?

I love watching others shmup while waiting for my turn.
Not likely. Though I really can't say for certain. Remember, I never had exposure to arcades growing up and even now. I've only been to arcades enough to count on my hands. Every last one had no shooters. No R-Type, no Gradius, no Raiden, and certainly no bullet Hell titles. If any shooter was available it was railrun which I rarely give a damn about or Galaga which, after playing these extreme shooters for years, I would be bored to pieces playing.
Deca wrote:Yeah with that approach you won't be doing anything in a timely fashion. STGs are very community driven and the serious players are all looking to one another and replays to improve their own knowledge and skillbase. I don't study replays near as much as I should but I've still picked up invaluable insight that I likely would have never stumbled upon on my own.

At the same time I've found ways to improve on others paths and techniques to improve my own consistency. Unless you're actually going for the WR in a game a replay is just a starting point, it's not some script to follow frame by frame for instant success.

It's a lot easier to see what's happening in a game when you aren't playing it, you can focus on different things and see the big picture. Certain things will jump out at you in painfully obvious ways that you would have never noticed in the middle of an actual run. If you're going to refuse to study the replays of others at least study your own.
RRRAAGGGHH! Alright! I understand! You guys finally broke me and obviously have a monumental passion for these games. I will take the other advice given. But, I'm not watching replays still at least not for gaining strategies. It's just something I'm against for the reasons I've stated and still stand by. I still want some degree of independence when formulating a strategy even if it's something already done. I also have low self esteem so the frustration with watching someone easily do something extremely difficult skyrockets.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by CloudyMusic »

Are you planning on reading up on scoring strategies for the games you play, or are those considered as off-limits as replays are? Or do you expect to stumble onto the relative minutae of scoring in particular games (for example, thinking about a lot of the hit-count-boosting shenanigans in DFK 1.5 here) all by yourself? There are certain tricks that I don't think you'd find even if you had all the time in the world.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by XoPachi »

Keres wrote:Are you planning on reading up on scoring strategies for the games you play, or are those considered as off-limits as replays are? Or do you expect to stumble onto the relative minutae of scoring in particular games (for example, thinking about a lot of the hit-count-boosting shenanigans in DFK 1.5 here) all by yourself? There are certain tricks that I don't think you'd find even if you had all the time in the world.
Maybe in the near future. As of now, no. I'm not too focused on high scores just scoringto get extends. Once I get that down and start dodging comfortably, I'll see about intense strategies. I think I might look up DFK stuff now that I think about it since that one is really easy compared to the others. Even if I autobomb and hyper constantly.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by NTSC-J »

I gotta say, it's refreshing to see new posters coming in with a problem, asking for advice, and actually listening and considering what others have to say. Not necessarily agreeing with all of it, but making an effort to understand what they need to do to improve and taking responsibility for it without blaming the games or other people for having better results.
DEL wrote:Intermediate players don't get 357,017,530 2-ALL on Muchi Muchi Pork :lol:
In 1.01 they do! Thanks, though.
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XoPachi
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by XoPachi »

NTSC-J wrote:I gotta say, it's refreshing to see new posters coming in with a problem, asking for advice, and actually listening and considering what others have to say. Not necessarily agreeing with all of it, but making an effort to understand what they need to do to improve and taking responsibility for it without blaming the games or other people for having better results.
Pardon me, I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not. Sorry.
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NTSC-J
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by NTSC-J »

No sarcasm!
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XoPachi
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by XoPachi »

Well in that case, thank you. I may be stupid, ignorant, and suck at a lot of things, but I'm no child if that isn't a contradiction. I know when the problem lies with me. I SUCK at these games (except Gradius 3 SNES). It' not the fault of them. Cuttingagent a few posts put it nicely.
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Re: Too many shooters at once?

Post by Randorama »

XoPachi: If you're 19 and new to the genre, you will need something like 2-3 years of intelligent practice to get good.

By "intelligent practice" I mean: follow advice, learn how to analyze shmups, improve basic skills such as dodging, and so on.

So, just sit down, try to focus on 1-2 titles that you are really enjoying now, and practice. Shmups are 80% planning (how to dodge patterns, how to handle stage design, etc.), 20% dodging (i.e. getting more dexterous). Right now, it seems that you need to learn the 20% dodging first, so practice, practice, practice!
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