Racketboy "Hidden Gems" Article - Updated 7/27

[Moniker]

X-Multiply - I guess I'd personally rather put Dragon Breed or Cosmic Cop up there, but they didn't get as much support. X-Multiply has a much different feel than R-Type, but I can see having trouble making it really stand out on the write up. In any case, I think Irem's lesser known works are all glorious little masterpieces of art direction and unique mechanics, and are quite obscure. Like all those early Studio Ghibli films I didn't know about. They really deserve more exposure, and this seems like a fit place for it.

Eco Fighters on Capcom anthologies - Checking online I guess it's just the PS2 & PSP anthologies. I've got both which is why I guess I thought it proliferated more widely.

Magical Chase's influence - Air Rade, Gundemonium, Deathsmiles, Trouble Witches. Each has sequels, too. Also it being in a very similar vein to Coryoon, Air Zonk, etc., makes it feel less special to me. It is quite well-done and all, but I feel like its slot would better belong to something more unique. Certainly wouldn't be out of place on your list, though.

[Dave_K.]

Needs more NMK:
Gunnail
Thunder Dragon 2
Rapid Hero

[cuttingagent]

IMO if any game exemplifies the term 'hidden gem' it's Hellsinker.
If used though, just make sure to point readers to the English wiki so they can try to figure out what the hell is going on, if lucky this should reduce ragequits by a staggering 5%.

[MathU]

I've been contributing a lot to that wiki myself. The translation patch should go a long way in helping others get into it, especially getting that HTML manual included with the game translated.

[RNGmaster]

Spread the gospel. Hellsinker is like nothing out there. Give it a top spot - more people need to experience it for themselves.

I know I just said I'm going to stop playing it but it's an amazing game, and not something you lose your appreciation for easily. I can't put it into words, but it's kind of arcane, like something created by a world-builder gone mad, and also really beautiful and awe-inspiring. Fucking Segment 3 LEAD and Segment 5, that's just mind-blowing. Sometimes I catch myself dreaming about it, it's just so crazy and mind-expanding.

[Drum]

X-Multiply is really only superficially similar to R-Type, they have pretty different philosophies when it comes to design - X-M gives you some powerful defensive tools that make the game much more flexible than R-Type and way less memorisation-heavy (at least as far as I've got).

Casting my vote for Chouji Meikyuu Legion. It's pretty fun and not at all well known.
Omega Fighter Special ought to at the very least get a mention.

[BulletMagnet]

I guess I'd personally rather put Dragon Breed or Cosmic Cop up there, but they didn't get as much support.

Dragon Breed is an interesting choice I'd overlooked, though some might argue that its run-n-gun elements would disqualify it...Gallop, on the other hand, I would consider a bit too specialized in its innate appeal (i.e. hardcore memorizers only) to really fit here as well as the rest.

X-Multiply has a much different feel than R-Type, but I can see having trouble making it really stand out on the write up.

Seems there's more than one person out there eager for me to reconsider my position on this...will dig further.

Magical Chase's influence - Air Rade, Gundemonium, Deathsmiles, Trouble Witches. Each has sequels, too. Also it being in a very similar vein to Coryoon, Air Zonk, etc., makes it feel less special to me.

I can see the similarities in the others, though TW still sticks out to me as the most direct offshoot, especially with the shop. In any case, the TG-16 isn't my greatest area of expertise personally, so I'm going to be pretty reliant on the community to help me pick out the most interesting stuff for that system in particular: if there's enough consensus for or against a particular game, I won't be in much of a position to resist it, heh.

Needs more NMK

I was tempted to put Gunnail on there, but doesn't that one have the wacko Under Defeat-esque scoring system that gives more points as you lose more lives? Thunder Dragon 2 I was willing to grant a spot in Tier 3, but everything I've experienced regarding Rapid Hero says to me "not bad, but also incredibly generic". Am I missing something about it, or could I just as easily give the spot to, say, Shienryu?

Omega Fighter Special ought to at the very least get a mention.

I think that one's pretty well set.

Hellsinker fans, I hear your pleas, but methinks that one will have to wait for the doujin equivalent article (unless one of you pens a Hellsinker-only missive of your own volition, of course!).

[cuttingagent]

Hellsinker fans, I hear your pleas, but methinks that one will have to wait for the doujin equivalent article (unless one of you pens a Hellsinker-only missive of your own volition, of course!).

Oh sure. I'd do it but... better ask someone who can get past the second level. =P

Seriously though, somebody do it(for the kids). I'd be happy to edit it, I are good writer and I talk good. If I could get through even HALF of the game, I'd write a thirty page treatise on the subject.

[shadowbringer]

among the games listed, my favorites (for the sake of adding an input, even though I don't know much about the other entries) would be

- Varth
- Thunder Dragon 2
- Cyvern
- Aero Star
- Battle Mania series
- Gynoug
- Bio Metal
- X-Multiply
(games I don't like much, but others may like more and I may like them more too, later)
- Macross Scrambled Valkyrie
- Air Gallet
- Daioh (runs :p)

tier 4 (not hidden enough for people who are already into the genre, but not known enough to those who aren't?)
- Dangun Feveron
- ESP Ra De
- Dragon Blaze
- Mahou Daisakusen series
- Progear
- Parodius series
- Raiden Fighters series

doujins (not familiar enough with doujins, I think that there may be enough material for another article and that the hidden gems article would be big enough without them already).

[Dave_K.]

Needs more NMK

I was tempted to put Gunnail on there, but doesn't that one have the wacko Under Defeat-esque scoring system that gives more points as you lose more lives? Thunder Dragon 2 I was willing to grant a spot in Tier 3, but everything I've experienced regarding Rapid Hero says to me "not bad, but also incredibly generic". Am I missing something about it, or could I just as easily give the spot to, say, Shienryu?

Yes, Gunnail's simple risk vs reward system gives expert players a bigger bonus if they put it all on the line with their last player. Do you see something inherently broken about that?

As for Rapid Hero, its a straight forward shooter with no special gimmicks, and that's what gives it its charm. It's not overly difficult or complicated, yet it has plenty of challenge with very fast enemy patterns reminiscent of Recca.

Maybe I'm just anti-Cave, but I really appreciate fun simple systems where I can actually focus on shooting.

[CptRansom]

Eschatos should be Tier 1. Just sayin'.

[Zaarock]

Eschatos should be Tier 1. Just sayin'.

yeah. should be JSS instead IMO though (eschatos is pretty much a sequel/remake to JSS and personally I don't find it better apart from the more balanced difficulty curve) cardinal sins kicks ass too.

[Bee Cool]

tier 4 (not hidden enough for people who are already into the genre, but not known enough to those who aren't?)

EXACTLY

What exactly is the purpose of this article? To be honest this sounds like it's going to be an awful article. Shmups are a hidden genre of games as it is, and so giving them a list of obscure games in an already obscure genre is a disservice to those wanting to try out these games (see: majority of people who will read your article).

It's like if someone who was really into Shoegaze was writing an article aimed at people who are new to the genre (which is what your article is aimed at) and figured that everyone had heard of My Bloody Valentine and so they didn't mention them (which is probably fine), but then skipped A Sunny Day in Glasgow, The Telescopes, Whirr, Stone Roses, Medicine, Astrobrite, Chapterhouse etc. The problem is the people reading the article don't know ANY OF THEM, so giving them really obscure artists is an awful way to let them explore the genre because they are missing out on what the community finds to be the better artists (note that popular in the community is not necessarily popular in general).

Your articles do not mention the following:

Armed Police Batrider
Battle Bakraid
Espgaluda II
Esprade
Dangun Feveron
Pro Gear
Guwange
Akai Katana
Muchi Muchi Pork
Pink Sweets
Mushihimesama Futari
Mahou Daisakusen
Ketsui
Shikigami no Shiro III
Mars Matrix
etc.


I'm not saying you need to mention them all, but you don't mention ANY of them in detail, e.g. writing "Ketsui" once isn't actually including it. Almost all of these, I believe, have shown up in the top 25 at least once and if not that then honorable mention. Therefore it's clear that most if not all of these games are generally found to be extremely good games, and so there is a strong case to be made that they ought to be shown before most other shmups. Please don't tell me that the majority of Racketboy knows all about the above mentioned games; they don't know about them and neither does the average game enthusiast.

You are taking the perspective of someone who is already well versed in this genre, which is of course fine if you were writing an article specifically for this site. But you aren't, and so it is a poor way of deciding which games you are going to discuss. You are writing for a bunch of people who have little to no knowledge beyond maybe Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, and Raiden, and so you should shape your article to fit the readers.

If you want to post your favorite list of shmups that aren't commonly played among enthusiasts it should be on a shmup fansite, not racketboy.

[Moniker]

What exactly is the purpose of this article? To be honest this sounds like it's going to be an awful article. Shmups are a hidden genre of games as it is, and so giving them a list of obscure games in an already obscure genre is a disservice to those wanting to try out these games (see: majority of people who will read your article).

Presumably, someone completely new to the genre will be checking out the more mainline ones first and only come to an article such as this if they're looking for something new and obscure. BulletMag has already written beginners and defining shmups articles, which ought to be more than enough to get people on the road to most of the classics you mentioned.

So the audience is more people from this site and non-shmupforum shmup enthusiasts.

[Bee Cool]

That guide was extremely sparse, and I do not believe that the majority of people reading this article will have a good knowledge of the more praised shmups (but still unknown to most anyone who isn't already deep into shmups and you are kidding yourself if you think that's the primary reader)

The guide is written for people on this site, and so it should be posted here.

[BulletMagnet]

The guide is written for people on this site, and so it should be posted here.

Well, the request for this article came directly from Racketboy, so it's definitely going there - as always, I'm getting feedback from the forum so I can draw from a deeper and more varied pool of knowledge than just myself before submitting it, which I think is best for everyone.

As for just how obscure I feel the article should be, I feel I'm safest following the template set by RB's previous genre-specific "Hidden Gems" article, for fighting games - though there are some fairly well-known ones on there (Last Blade, Arcana Heart), I doubt that a lot of readers had ever heard of Joy Mecha Fight or The Eye of Typhoon before seeing the article (I certainly hadn't, anyway). As such, it seems safe to assume that RB is comfortable delving into territory that even genre fans might be unfamiliar with; in any case I've sent him a link to this topic so he can keep an eye on it, so if he feels I'm going in the wrong direction he can let me know.

Currently working on another update for the list, keep an eye on the topic line.

[Drum]

tier 4 (not hidden enough for people who are already into the genre, but not known enough to those who aren't?)

EXACTLY

What exactly is the purpose of this article? To be honest this sounds like it's going to be an awful article. Shmups are a hidden genre of games as it is, and so giving them a list of obscure games in an already obscure genre is a disservice to those wanting to try out these games (see: majority of people who will read your article).

It's like if someone who was really into Shoegaze was writing an article aimed at people who are new to the genre (which is what your article is aimed at) and figured that everyone had heard of My Bloody Valentine and so they didn't mention them (which is probably fine), but then skipped A Sunny Day in Glasgow, The Telescopes, Whirr, Stone Roses, Medicine, Astrobrite, Chapterhouse etc. The problem is the people reading the article don't know ANY OF THEM, so giving them really obscure artists is an awful way to let them explore the genre because they are missing out on what the community finds to be the better artists (note that popular in the community is not necessarily popular in general).

Your articles do not mention the following:

Armed Police Batrider
Battle Bakraid
Espgaluda II
Esprade
Dangun Feveron
Pro Gear
Guwange
Akai Katana
Muchi Muchi Pork
Pink Sweets
Mushihimesama Futari
Mahou Daisakusen
Ketsui
Shikigami no Shiro III
Mars Matrix
etc.


I'm not saying you need to mention them all, but you don't mention ANY of them in detail, e.g. writing "Ketsui" once isn't actually including it. Almost all of these, I believe, have shown up in the top 25 at least once and if not that then honorable mention. Therefore it's clear that most if not all of these games are generally found to be extremely good games, and so there is a strong case to be made that they ought to be shown before most other shmups. Please don't tell me that the majority of Racketboy knows all about the above mentioned games; they don't know about them and neither does the average game enthusiast.

You are taking the perspective of someone who is already well versed in this genre, which is of course fine if you were writing an article specifically for this site. But you aren't, and so it is a poor way of deciding which games you are going to discuss. You are writing for a bunch of people who have little to no knowledge beyond maybe Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, and Raiden, and so you should shape your article to fit the readers.

If you want to post your favorite list of shmups that aren't commonly played among enthusiasts it should be on a shmup fansite, not racketboy.

You are the absolute worst.

[RNGmaster]

I wrote a review of Hellsinker. I'd be glad to modify it or have knackerjack help write it.

[Bee Cool]

You are the absolute worst.

Wonderful response bud, really enlightening.

I love how some people on this forum just go into hurt feelings mode.

[Moniker]

What exactly is the purpose of this article? I'm not sure the proper audience is being considered, here. Shmups are a basically hidden genre of games as it is, and compounding that obscurity may do a disservice to racketboy's more broad readership.

Mention of the following games might do better at bridging such a gap:

[snip]


These are generally held to be paragons of good design in the genre, and while they aren't quite as hidden around here, they may well qualify as such on racketboy.

In any case, consider that your audience may not know much beyond Ikaruga, Radiant Silvergun, and Raiden, and it may be wise to shape your article to fit the readers.

As-is, the article would certainly be valuable for shmupsforum, if not necessarily as helpful on rocketboy.

Fixed that for ya.

Note that the content of the message remains intact, while also maintaining civility and consideration without pandering. YMMV.

[Bee Cool]

Nah I'm not going to walk on egg shells when talking about a bad article.

[BulletMagnet]

Please don't make me split this.

[cuttingagent]

IMHO...

What exactly is the purpose of this article? To be honest this sounds like it's going to be an awful article. Shmups are a hidden genre of games as it is, and so giving them a list of obscure games in an already obscure genre is a disservice to those wanting to try out these games (see: majority of people who will read your article).

It's like if someone who was really into Shoegaze...

Shootemups used to be mainstream as hell, that's like saying Ska or bad 90s Swing music are obscure niche genres just because nobody listens to them anymore.

Your articles do not mention the following:

Yup, 8 or nine Cave games. Or he could just say "All gave games are the shit, play them."
RB has like 43 and a half long-ass articles about shooters and reasonably should cover all those games somewhere since Cave is like David Hasselhoff in Germany--but in the U.S. among STG players. But it needn't be in the Hidden Gems article because they're all pretty well known. I'd rather read about something more obscure than every shmupper's favorite shmup company ever in an article about obscure games nobody knows about.

If you want to post your favorite list of shmups that aren't commonly played among enthusiasts it should be on a shmup fansite, not racketboy.

Why care where he posts it? It's on the internet, can be linked from any forums, should be good enough. Racketboy is almost somewhat of a shmup fansite, actually, in that they have ample coverage of the genre during a time where there really aren't many widely read, currently/consistently active shmup fansites that aren't a forum.

[cuttingagent]

Also I guess I agree that doujins should be in a separate article because that article would have to contain every good doujin that isn't Touhou, and by what I hear, that's almost as many games as there are Touhou games.

[Hagane]

Been playing Sengeki Striker for a while and it may qualify for hidden gem. Quite unique scoring system and tough.

[BulletMagnet]

Been playing Sengeki Striker for a while and it may qualify for hidden gem. Quite unique scoring system and tough.

It's in Tier 2, though I need to give it some more play time to decide where to put it...does MAME run it at full speed by now, or is it still slow? Also, how much concrete info was ever unearthed regarding the scoring? I've been out of the loop for a bit on that one...

[Hagane]

It runs fine for me (AMD A4 with 4 gigs of ram, onboard video). Apparently you need to drop stuff on ground enemies to get more points. Silly but fun.

[Obiwanshinobi]

"The Sega Saturn’s Explosive Shmups Library" article, when it comes to Konami Antiques MSX Collection, lacks any mention of Pippols, which is not only a shmup, but also an 8-bit computer game universally good rather than "nostalgia-good" (like Parodius) or "tech-demo-good" (like Knightmare). That omission makes me think it's hidden. Pippols and Penguin Adventure have aged so much better than many arcade games Konami released at their time it's not even funny.
P.S. Oh, I see you took it into account by now. Never mind. Keep up the good work.

[BulletMagnet]

Really need to push forward on this, so I've applied one or two more tweaks and will be leaving it in its current form for one last round of input from the community...afterwards I think I'm going to reorganize it into the previously-mentioned "Main + Honorable Mentions" format and begin doing the actual writeups on these things.

In short, speak now or hold your peace until the next round!

[ChainsawGuitarSP]

Last Duel. It's essentially Image Fight+Armed Police Unit Gallop. Why it's not popular, who knows. But maybe this can change soon...?