Double Dragon Neon

[Obiwanshinobi]

For my money the finest console take on arcade-style gaming this gen is that of Excite Truck. The minor awards are nice to have, but clearly decorative, whereas the ultimate goal - playing for the score - never dissolves. There's only one thing to do in this game really and that is playing for the score. I like this clarity.
Can't be easily applied to games that should work in co-op, though.

[mrsmiley381]

Hm. Well, I suppose I can't say I'm surprised a lot of you found it disappointing on a gameplay level. I'm still flopping my way through the higher difficulties, but here's what I've noticed about the game:

-Most of the primary moves, like punches, non-super spin kicks, duck-and-then-knee-to-the-face, etc all have stats based on your current stance. They do not use MP, so obviously you're supposed to use them as effectively as possible. OK, basic stuff here, obviously.
-The duck and roll mechanic seems to be a classic beat 'em up version of the dodge mechanics found in games like Devil May Cry and Bayonetta. Like normal mode in Bayonetta, a properly timed dodge will give you an advantage, in this case bonus damage. So, by quickly dodging incoming attacks you can get a power boost and more quickly dispatch enemies, this of course coming at a higher risk when only powerful enemies are on screen.
-Certain stances will combo with certain moves or situations. Use Training Wheels when you are learning enemy patterns. Use the stance based on increased attack when you already know an enemy encounter in and out. Combine one-inch punch with whatever stance will bring you the most damage, preferably in an encounter you know inside and out. Combine the summoning of the radical dragon with the stance that boosts MP if you'd prefer not to use 80%+ of your power meter. I still need to experiment with other stances and moves to see when they are most effective, but there seems to be some potential here.
-One move will increase the odds of dropping mix tapes. This could alleviate grinding and assist in doing speed runs.
-There are a ton of hidden shops and tapesmith locations, as well as at least one hidden combat section, from what I've read. This means you need to do a little exploring to discover where and when you can boost certain skills easily.
-It looks like a lot of bosses have periods of aggressive behavior as well as patterns where they leave themselves fairly open. This reminds me of the bosses in Turtles in Time, which I suppose is awesome, especially for the final boss. Learn to dodge and unload on bosses like a suave gentleman.
-The score tables are based entirely on speed running through each difficulty.
-You always reset to two lives when you enter a new level.

I see a lot of potential for speed runs here. Ideally, you'd get through normal difficulty, restarting levels when you get a game over, learning enemy patterns, shop and smith locations, and what enemies drop what mix tapes. After that you get through the higher difficulties and see how enemy stats change. After learning this information you would start a new game and try to get through each level on your first try as fast as possible, upgrading what you need from the shops and smiths, switching skills and stances based on situation, and generally abusing the skill that gets you mix tapes. A skilled player may be able to run through all three difficulties in one go if he or she maximizes and utilizes skills properly. I am uncertain if the game is balanced for this sort of play, but it will be worth a shot. I have no idea what a two-player version of this speed run attempt would be like, aside from attempting for a damage-bonus high-five as often as possible.

Feel free to pick apart this strategy. Maybe I'm looking for an excuse to listen to the soundtrack while punching people. Then again, since the soundtrack is out for free I've just be listening to it while doing other things.

[Op Intensify]

For my money the finest console take on arcade-style gaming this gen is that of Excite Truck.

Maybe if you ignore that Omega Five, Gradius Rebirth, Goku Makaimura Kai, Crimzon Clover, Jewelry Master Twinkle, Protect Me Knight, and Eschatos have never been arcade games.

I think it's unacceptable that a driving game forces you to use a fiddly motion sensing imaginary steering wheel. The track design had to be completely dumbed down because of it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Crimson Clover is a computer game of the pretend coin-op variety, which Excite Truck isn't (the latter's computer equivalent would be - maybe - the Trackmania or Tony Hawk games).
I suggest carrying this kind of remarks over to the Rolling Start site, where I'm going to appear soon. That place needs some battles of the soap too.

[No_not_like_Quake]

Just tried the demo...played the whole thing and deleted it right after. What a piece of crap.

Same, though I gave it three chances/plays in about as many hours, to see if it would click, because it was getting praised elsewhere on the internet. It didn't.

Plays kind of like some sort of Streets of Rage 2/River City Ransom (stat building) hybrid... you know, the two games people who know fuck all about this genre praise as the best, without ever explaining why. The only recognizable element from Double Dragon that I found was the slow, deliberate pacing. You can run though...

The sound effects are worth mentioning, specifically, the voices. Every, or most, hit on an enemy is accompanied by a grunt of some kind, and they are awful. Fighting the women with whips is especially grating because of this. There's a lot of unneeded banter and stupid quips to go along with the whole 80s parody schtick they got going.

Anyway, I guess I didn't like it.

[Op Intensify]

Crimson Clover is a computer game of the pretend coin-op variety

I forgot that it had a later NESiCA release--you got me there. But what is "arcade-style" if not "pretend-coin op?"

[Shatterhand]

Most arcade beat-em-ups that have leveling (e.g. Dungeons & Dragons, Knights of Valour) are balanced well.

Well.. both are still by Capcom

Plays kind of like some sort of Streets of Rage 2/River City Ransom (stat building) hybrid... you know, the two games people who know fuck all about this genre praise as the best, without ever explaining why

People praise SoR 2 as the best because its incredibly easy to play, while having a good set of moves for each character, bosses that are interesting enough and the action isn't slow. I used to say SoR 2 was the best beat'em up ever too.

SoR 3 in theory is more sophisticated and has more interesting enemies design than SoR 2... and people don't praise it as much. And I say, they don't do it simply because the game is a lot harder than SoR 2.

Now, River City Ransom never clicked with me.

I don't think SoR 2 is the best beat'em up game ever anymore, but I still think it's an excellent game.

[trap15]

Most arcade beat-em-ups that have leveling (e.g. Dungeons & Dragons, Knights of Valour) are balanced well.

Well.. both are still by Capcom

Knights of Valour is by IGS.

[Shatterhand]

Most arcade beat-em-ups that have leveling (e.g. Dungeons & Dragons, Knights of Valour) are balanced well.

Well.. both are still by Capcom

Knights of Valour is by IGS.

Duh you are right, I was thinking of Knights of the Round

[Op Intensify]

SoR 3 in theory is more sophisticated and has more interesting enemies design than SoR 2... and people don't praise it as much. And I say, they don't do it simply because the game is a lot harder than SoR 2.

I think it has the most to do with SoR3's soundtrack, which is an extremely acquired taste.

SoR would be just another forgotten non-Capcom/Konami 16-bit beatemup without Yuzo.

[Obiwanshinobi]

But what is "arcade-style" if not "pretend-coin op?"

I used the term "arcade" for lack of a better word, but it boils down to immediate accessibility and being enjoyable in short bursts whilst posing some challenge for everybody, regardless of their skill. Handheld games are another example, as well as the so called "party games", obvious differences aside.
"Pretend coin-op", on the other hand, is a facet of "nostalgia gaming", as such alive on computers first and foremost, where developers don't need to respect console manufacturers' opinion that the party's over.

[Ganelon]

SoR would be just another forgotten non-Capcom/Konami 16-bit beatemup without Yuzo.

If you're strictly talking about the first game, perhaps. But Koshiro is only part of the reason for the success of the series. Bare Knuckle has always focused on the urban nightlife setting and does it better than any other beat-em-up series out there. Bare Knuckle III, my favorite installment in the series, has landmark character and enemy variation. The controls are comparable only to Capcom's beat-em-ups in smoothness.

As for BKII vs. BKIII, we've had this discussion a few times here before but I still feel that fans of the former focus a lot on:
-immediately gratuitous anthem trance over buildup and at-times repetitive techno
-simple but clear shading on sprites over much more detailed shading on sprites that results in more pixelation
-more straightforward linearity over lengthier multiple routes with an occasional annoying non-fighting sub-task

[Hagane]

I don't think we can put games such as SoR in the same league as the top arcade Beat em ups... SoR games might have been nice for the Genesis, but they are much much simpler than a Punisher, AvsP, KoV, etc.

[scrilla4rella]

Sorry for the off-topics question but were there any differences between Bare Knuckles 2 and Streets of Rage 2?

[Shatterhand]

I don't think we can put games such as SoR in the same league as the top arcade Beat em ups... SoR games might have been nice for the Genesis, but they are much much simpler than a Punisher, AvsP, KoV, etc.

I honestly think that's why people like it so much. It's much simpler than the most advanced Capcom brawlers, so it's a lot more accessible, while it's not simple to the point of being retarded.

And yeah, the music probably plays a big part on making the game being so praised too.

And wasn't The Punisher also ported to the Mega-Drive?

[gameoverDude]

SoR 3 in theory is more sophisticated and has more interesting enemies design than SoR 2... and people don't praise it as much. And I say, they don't do it simply because the game is a lot harder than SoR 2.

I think it has the most to do with SoR3's soundtrack, which is an extremely acquired taste.

SoR would be just another forgotten non-Capcom/Konami 16-bit beatemup without Yuzo.

The censorship of the USA version ( Examples here along with other changes) didn't help it much either, leaving the Japanese Bare Knuckle III as the superior version. Some players probably chose to import the Japanese one due to all these changes.
SoR 3's difficulty was spiked a bit compared to BKIII with some enemies doing more damage to you and requiring more to kill. It takes multiple hits instead of just one to get the bulldozer to back off. BKIII is about equal to SoR2 on difficulty.

BKII & SoR2 don't have too much difference except for Skate's name being Sammy and Mr. X smoking a cigar in BKII. Blaze's flying kick animation was changed in SoR2 USA, but not the PAL version.

The Punisher was ported to the Mega Drive, but that version is frankly terrible.

[Hagane]

Yeah, it's severely gimped compared to the arcade version. The physics, the number and variety of enemies, and of course the graphics and sound are all much, much worse than in arcade. Just compare the rolling in the Genesis to the original...

[Ganelon]

When the criteria for "complexity" is excessive combos and juggles, count me out. There's a reason games such as Final Fight and Captain Commando are still held in high regard. I don't recall The Punisher being any more complex than Bare Knuckle III anyway.

I'm glad the BK games came out when they did. Any later and they probably would've caught onto the juggle craze that's infested most fighting games and beat-em-ups since the mid-90s.

[Drum]

I am pretty sure SoRII/III are more complex than The Punisher/AvP. To no advantage whatsoever.

[Hagane]

When the criteria for "complexity" is excessive combos and juggles, count me out. There's a reason games such as Final Fight and Captain Commando are still held in high regard. I don't recall The Punisher being any more complex than Bare Knuckle III anyway.

I'm glad the BK games came out when they did. Any later and they probably would've caught onto the juggle craze that's infested most fighting games and beat-em-ups since the mid-90s.

Yeah screw games that demand more skill from their players.

And fighting games should have stayed the way Karate Champ was; none of that combo craze that started with SF2.

[Drum]

I don't strictly agree with Ganelon here, but how do 'juggles' demand more skill from the player than 'no juggles'? I don't think it's clear either way. Just a baffling line of reasoning.

[Hagane]

"Juggles" is an extremely simple way to downplay the improved combo systems in "modern" Capcom/IGS beat em ups. Not only you have juggles, there are more cancel options, OTG combos, throw combos, and most of them are execution intensive. That adds variety and definitely makes the games more interesting than a combo system that's limited to "mash attack n times".

[Drum]

Yeah, I agree in the specific instances you're talking about, and you expressed it well there - I just read it your prior post as you stretching it out to some kind of principle. Came off as wrong.

[Ganelon]

And fighting games should have stayed the way Karate Champ was; none of that combo craze that started with SF2.

Yup, there's a reason I play Street Fighter II and not other fighting games seriously. If there were no combos, I'd be even happier.

Drum: Beat-em-up combos are sometimes situational depending on distance to corner, other enemies, how you start the combo, and even character level. On the other hand, for certain characters in some versions of IGS games, the entire goal of every boss battle is to land the same infinite.

There's mechanical skill in combos, but I don't think it's fun skill. For one, the developers tune the games around players using some so bosses tend to have much higher HP. If you wanted complexity, you could also add some super-fast quick time events, DDR inputs, golf swing gauges, and mashing to add even more skill but would that result in a better game? Some would probably say so, some would probably not. Rather than forcing you to come up with a better strategy, all these combos force you to have better dexterity. Is high dexterity something I want in my games? Personally, no.

[Hagane]

ST is a poor example considering it's incredibly execution intensive (even if there are braindead characters such as the one you use). Combos are hard to pull off, reversals are 1 frame, throw techs have a tight window just like most special move inputs, safe jumps are hard to pull off and you need to master all those things if you want to get far in that game. Any failure in execution at the highest levels is paid with a quick, painful death. So even if there aren't longer fancy combos, the execution barrier definitely is still there, and it's a better game for it.

Combos don't override strategy. They add an extra layer of depth to the game. Hawk isn't braindead just because he instantly wins the round if you get a knockdown in and you have the execution to do safe jump throw loops; you still have to outsmart the opponent to get him in that situation. Just like advanced combo systems in modern fighters such as Accent Core don't detract from the game in the least.

And no, games like Captain Commando aren't better strategy wise than Alien vs. Predator. Leaving aside all the extra moves, movement options, character diversity and improved combo system that give you more tools to develop strategies, the game is faster and harder, and you will get destroyed if the only thing you can do is pull off fancy combos.

[Ganelon]

You're assuming a lot I never said...

I never said all execution was bad, and I never said ST is the perfect example for controls. Obviously, some execution must be good; otherwise, I'd be playing board games. And ST has some annoying inputs but it's far and away less combo-intensive than any other competitive fighting game around. Reversals in ST are hard and that's why not even the best players can perform them all the time. Doing them with reasonable consistency doesn't just involve timing; it mostly involves thinking of an easy way to increase your chances. And that's how we got pianoing. Throw techs are common when players are expecting them. Safe jumps are often used in top level play but not mandatory anywhere else and not very useful for certain characters at any level. The same goes for more complicated combos.

Based on the jab you made about a "braindead" character, I think you either don't understand the game or are needlessly trying to be antagonistic. You even point out the opposite when you claim that Hawk's infinite, which relies entirely on execution once started, isn't braindead. When I use the worst character in the game, I still beat the majority of players using any character 10-0, partially because I'm more in tune with the game's timing and partially because I know a lot more about the game after spending so much time playing it. I don't even need combos over 3 hits, perfect safe jumps, or perfect reversals because there's so much more involved in spacing and taking advantage of tricks in the game engine. I don't say that to boast but to give you the realities of the game. And if you're really talking about top level play, then I'm going to recuse myself because I don't claim to be a top level player on any beat-em-up.

Also, I never said combos override strategy; I said that combos don't add anything to strategy. It adds its own dexterity layer to the game. I don't like that dexterity layer but I know others do. You claimed that later arcade beat-em-ups were flat out better; I'm just trying to enlighten you on the concept of different viewpoints.

[Hagane]

I won't get much deeper into the ST debate. But Hawk requires a lot of strategy before the loop, while Vega can setup walldive situations very easily. And as Killian said years ago, execution is why Japan is so far ahead of the US in most fighting games, ST included.

Besides, as you said execution is necessary for fighting games. Making it harder (as long as it doesn't get in the way of normal play like wacky old SNK motions) is also a way of improving the game. Just one of the reasons why a game like ST is much better than SFIV, or why Accent Core is better than Blazblue.

Saying that combos don't add to strategy is false. Not all combos are optimal for every situation, both in beat em ups and fighting games. Maybe you can do a damaging combo, but it doesn't give you a knockdown, and maybe that lower damage knockdown combo gives you extra options afterwards that are better than instant raw damage. Or you can sacrifice your momentum if you think the extra damage is worth it. Same goes for things like resets; do you interrupt your combo and go for mixup options that eventually will give you more damage, or avoid the risk and just go for the bigger combo right away? There are a lot of choices like that that wouldn't be there without combos.

Beat em ups are similar; in a game like AvsP, positioning is an extremely important aspect and not all combos are good for any situation (for example, going for a long combo with smashers close is generally suicidal). Besides, it's not like old beat em ups didn't have any combos; they just involved mashing, which definitely involves less thinking than the stuff you can do in more advanced games.

And in any case, extra options that demand extra skill from the players are always good. If you can't keep up with those requirements, that's another thing.

[Ganelon]

For ST, I don't see how you can make that kind of comparison about the ease of setup, which is certainly more difficult for Hawk, when the nature of the 2 loops is so different. Hawk's infinite has no escape in all the matches it works in and involves the player repeating the exact motion at the exact same time without even needing to see or hear anything. Meanwhile, claw's wall dive loops can be stopped after each iteration with a correct 50/50 guess and require at least some thought and vision to direct movement. I also don't see why you're equating claw with a single move. In certain matches, wall dives aren't even advisable. At high levels, setting up ambiguous wall dives in general isn't easy because there are quite a few counters. I could easily demonstrate on GGPO sometime using a variety of characters. In general, I'd be cautious equating what you've experienced with high level valuation; Honda is a great example of a character that seems imposing at mid level but has long odds the further you go.

Also, I don't know what time period you're talking about for Seth Killian's quote but although I agree that execution is a key factor in fighting game ability, Japan isn't "so far ahead" of the US based on current win rate. Yes, US ST has waned from its historically near-even head-to-head win rate amongst the handful of top players against the Japanese. However, Japan is waning in SF4 and fared worse than the US at this Evo, not even speaking of Korea, Taiwan, and China. And we have the edge in both UMVC and SFXT. I'm not sure if that's due to execution or not though.

As for inputs, I don't find harder inputs to be any better than more lenient inputs. It's just a different type of priority placed on controls. However, there's a crispness in Capcom's 90s 2D fighters that doesn't seem to be present in Capcom's fighters today.

For combos, yes, I brought up beat-em-up conditional combo examples. And I pointed out that those aren't strategic options in terms of the fighting engine; they're options that exist solely for combos. The developers can have a special move perform a knockdown and do slightly less damage and another special move that does more damage but doesn't knock down, all without a combo. The developers can create options for ambiguity without a combo. Let's say you have a "Chess" button in a fighting game. Anytime you connect with that button, you enter a game of chess with the opponent. Winning the chess game enables you to do damage, capturing pieces increases the amount of damage, and losing pieces decreases the amount of damage. Clearly, there's a lot to think over and weigh as you play your chess game.

Now, this "minigame" adds a sort of extra skill and strategy to the fighting game but it's not really relevant to the core game's skill and strategy. That's the same way I feel with a combo system: it adds strategy to itself but everything strategy-related it adds could've been implemented in other, simpler ways. The reset question is moot because if you think about it differently, it's just a simple difficulty vs. damage question that all players face. The difference between hitting the attack button 3 times and a full-blown combo is that the former doesn't involve a needless "minigame" with execution requirements to do the same thing.

[Marc]

I don't think we can put games such as SoR in the same league as the top arcade Beat em ups... SoR games might have been nice for the Genesis, but they are much much simpler than a Punisher, AvsP, KoV, etc.

I honestly think that's why people like it so much. It's much simpler than the most advanced Capcom brawlers, so it's a lot more accessible, while it's not simple to the point of being retarded.

And yeah, the music probably plays a big part on making the game being so praised too.

And wasn't The Punisher also ported to the Mega-Drive?

I think people of my age group like it so much because when SORII appeared, Final Fight was generally held to be the pinnacle of brawlers, and SOR outclassed it completely
Anyway, Renegade is sti my favourite brawler ever.

[Obiwanshinobi]

If anything about competitive fighting games turns me off more than the fact they favour arcade sticks and don't quite work in single player, it's the sort of conversations genre fans have online. You'd think that they, of all people, have their ways of taking the beef outside, but it doesn't seem to work.
Something must have gone wrong when they lost the arcades and got the internet instead.
Really, even PES players don't make PES sound like a no fun game to the people uninterested in footy.