Any Atari ST love?

[ST Dragon]

On the other hand if you install a Blizzard 1230-IV in your Amiga 1200, you get 50 MHz and can use up to 64 MB of RAM. This in combination with the above mentioned CF-"HDD" and CF-PCMCIA adapter and a little tool called WHDload that allows you to boot Amiga 500 games from hdd makes Amiga 1200 the most awesome home computer ever.

Agreed!!
Amiga rules!

[Zeether]

An Atari ST thread with no mention of Llamatron?

[Herr Schatten]

games that were made for the ST and then ported to Amiga in direct-conversions that didn't use all the
Amiga power.

I know what you mean. Especially in the early 16 bit days, companies developed simultaneously for both systems. Naturally, the lowest common denominator, particularly in regard to artwork, was the ST, so quite a lot of games didn't use the Amiga's full potential. IMO, it got even worse, though, when multi-platform development shifted to the PC, and suddenly most new Amiga games used the horrible EGA colour palette. (Just compare the visuals of Grand Monster Slam with those of its sequel M.U.D.S.to see what I mean.)

[louisg]

games that were made for the ST and then ported to Amiga in direct-conversions that didn't use all the
Amiga power.

I know what you mean. Especially in the early 16 bit days, companies developed simultaneously for both systems. Naturally, the lowest common denominator, particularly in regard to artwork, was the ST, so quite a lot of games didn't use the Amiga's full potential. IMO, it got even worse, though, when multi-platform development shifted to the PC, and suddenly most new Amiga games used the horrible EGA colour palette. (Just compare the visuals of Grand Monster Slam with those of its sequel M.U.D.S.to see what I mean.)

Yeah, I really wish Firepower and Turbo hadn't been ST ports for example. They're still fun, but only if you can deal with the 10fps (or so) framerate!

PC ports were the absolute worst. 16 terrible eyeball-burning colors and horrible sound (General MIDI ports? not sure). For 2d games, the IBM PC was pretty much an overpriced Spectrum until VGA became standard in the early-to-mid 90s (for you kids out there, the PC used to be one of the most expensive platforms, up there with Macintosh pricing). It still kind of blows my mind that it caught on.

The Atari Falcon seems like amazing hardware. Someone even made a subtractive synthesizer for it which sounds pretty good. It's a true shame that it didn't even have a brief moment of success like the ST and Amiga did.

[Shatterhand]

games that were made for the ST and then ported to Amiga in direct-conversions that didn't use all the
Amiga power.

I know what you mean. Especially in the early 16 bit days, companies developed simultaneously for both systems. Naturally, the lowest common denominator, particularly in regard to artwork, was the ST, so quite a lot of games didn't use the Amiga's full potential. IMO, it got even worse, though, when multi-platform development shifted to the PC, and suddenly most new Amiga games used the horrible EGA colour palette. (Just compare the visuals of Grand Monster Slam with those of its sequel M.U.D.S.to see what I mean.)

I think MSX users suffered a lot more.

I mean, in a system that could do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8VTEdEMDkU

We had to deal with shit like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndMaQgtLZvI

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6FJxFtZ63k

Not that Xenon is a bad game... it just has less visibliity than any Raizing game due to the 2 colors graphics. The game isn't exactly smooth anyway, so they could probably use more colors, keep the amazing soundtrack and have a proper MSX version. (If this was on MSX 2 we could have a real killer version)

But instead we have something that looks like shit and plays slower than the spectrum version. Great.


And to get back on topic... Atari ST Xenon has a much superior soundtrack than the Amiga one. I always thought the Amiga games had superior music, and I am much of an Amiga fanboy... but when I first heard the ST version of that track, I was blown away. Freaking awesome work from David Whittaker

Edit: Oh yeah, and I find the 1st Xenon mildly enjoyable, and a lot better than its garbage sequel.

[louisg]

Edit: Oh yeah, and I find the 1st Xenon mildly enjoyable, and a lot better than its garbage sequel.

YES!!! The second Xenon was one of the Bitmap Bros' worse games I think. The first one was original and interesting at least. Though, Xenon 2 caught on because it was such a technical achievement. I remember how much my mind was blown by the music and parallax scrolling at the time. Still, that sure didn't make up for the gameplay

[Shatterhand]

IMO Bitmap Brothers were the classic case of style over substance... and the fact they were excellent self-promoters at time, being friends with lots of game-reviewers its the only reason I can see for their games been so well received by the gaming critics of time. Speedball 2 and The Chaos Engine are excellent games, everything else they made is average at best IMO. They even screwed Speedball 2100 on the Playstation, which really made me feel they had no idea what made Speedball 2 good. I guess their 2 truly good games were good purely by luck, and not because they had the talent to design a good game (And both games have some serious flaws that some people will find unforgivable)

And still I think Xenon 2 is their worst game by far.
Edit: And while Xenon 2 music was more technically impressive, I think the first game has a better soundtrack overall

[Herr Schatten]

IMO Bitmap Brothers were the classic case of style over substance... and the fact they were excellent self-promoters at time, being friends with lots of game-reviewers its the only reason I can see for their games been so well received by the gaming critics of time. Speedball 2 and The Chaos Engine are excellent games, everything else they made is average at best IMO.

Totally agreed on that style over substance thing.
What's wrong with Gods and Cadaver, though? I seem to remember having lots of fun playing both of them, and I'd rate them well above average.

Also, Xenon II is actually a pretty good shooter for people who don't care about the genre. (Sounds paradoxical, but think about it.) It's not inherently bad, it's just not for us fans of the genre.
As for their worst game, I'd nominate Magic Pockets. I don't know why, it always left me cold, it just felt soulless and dreary.

[Marc]

Cadaver was brilliant, but I lost my rag with the expansion disc, it was balls hard. I thought Gods sucked ass though, and it shone through when it got ported to the SNES, it was embarrassing how far behind the design and control seemed when compared to the games developed specifically for the console.

And props to whoever mentioned Minotron - the best ST exculsive (I think) I ever played. I spent a lot of hours last year on the superb iPod update, even did the whole hundred levels in one run.

[Stefan_L]

ah.. Cadaver the best game Bitmap Brothers made, it is on my top 3 list of best games ever. I first played it on Atari ST and then on the PC.
Gods is a very good game also, it is a "hardcore platform game" just like those bullet pattern shoot'em ups these days don't suit all tastes. I know Amiga owners dont like the graphics in Gods because it is 16 colours only but i just love it... it really is professionally made, Mark Coleman shows he is one of the best graphic artists ever.

[mwaawm]

Who let the Amiga fanboys out their care homes and then rattled their cage by sugesting even a modicum of affection for something other than their preferred girlfriend proxy? The supposed overwhelming superiority of the Amiga has been debunked many times but these zombie fanboys just refuse to die. The fact is the Amiga lived in the shadow of the ST throughout the 80s had brief year or so in the spotlight aroun 91/92 then was swiftly eclipsed by the consoles.

The Amiga was sloooowww meaning all the following great games were better on the ST due to better framerates:

Carrier Command
Stuntcar Racer
Interphase
Starglider 1 & 2
Virus
Falcon
Hunter
Cybercon III
Mercenary 3
Robocop 3
Midwinter 1 & 2
No Second Prize
Reach for the Skies
Corporation
Epic
Microprose Golf
Microprose Grand Prix
Vroom
F19 Stealth Fighter
Thunderhawk
Domark F1
Their Finest Hour
Resolution 101
Frontier Elite 2
Warhead
The Killing Cloud
Federation of Free Traders
Proflight
Simulcra
Mig 29
Battle Command
Flight of the Intruder
Infestation
Magic fly
Starwars

Then there were 2d games supposedly the Amigas trump card over the ST, well the fact is most of these ran faster and better on the ST for much of its commercial life due to software houses not bothering to utilise its custom chips (which were overated anyway as the consoles soon demonstrated) there was the 32+ colour argument Amiga fanboys liked to use except for the fact these higher colour modes rendered the machine even slower than it already was. Besides much of what its custom chips facilitated could be done in software on other platforms, there are plenty of examples of ST games with greater than 32 colours on screen (and take a look at Photochrome to see how what an ST can do in terms of simultaneous colours all in software)

When it came to other general computing the Amiga was hampered alongside its slow processor by its bloated OS and slow floppy drive meaning you needed a ram expansion and second floppy or hard drive to make it even a usable platform, combined with its terrible flickery high resolution modes and its apparent why it was mainly known as a games machine.

The fact is decades later the ST is still showing the Amiga a few tricks

https://youtu.be/a9fkRotXuaM
https://youtu.be/gyRBcTnn-5M
https://youtu.be/UK85OqByrwM

Having refuted the fanboys claims I will close by saying if you are interested in dabbling in gaming on the ST please do take the plunge, yes there is lots of garbage out there but those games will be just as bad or marginally worse/better on the amiga. There are however a lot of gaming gems to discover that anyone who doesnt have an axe to grind would be sure to derive much pleasure from. In addition to the games mentioned above here's some suggestions to get you going

Supa Zazai Da!
Rox Zero
Chu Chu Rocket
Civilisation
Bolo
Oids
Lethal Xcess
Wings of Death
Flappy Bird
Dungeon Master
Utopos
Legends of Valour
Realms
Quartz
Nebulous
Archipelagos
Stardust
Obsession Pinball
SWIV
P47 Thunderbolt
Dragon Breed
Saint Dragon
R-type 1 & 2
Knightmare
Supremacy
Anarchy
Power monger
Hunt for Red October
Populous 1 & 2
Corporation
Xenon 1 and 2 (and recently fixed version with much improved audio)
Starray
Cybernetix
Ishar 1 and 2
Gauntlet 1 and 2
Cisco Heat
Dynablaster (complete with 5 player mode)
Supersprint
Volfied
NewZealand Story
Midi Maze
Captive
Defender Of the Crown
Indy Heat
Kick Off 2
Llamatron
Super off road
Crazy Cars 3
Parasol Stars
Pole Position
Pacmania (especially the STe remake)
Lotus 1, 2 , 3 and the recent STe remake
Toki
Atomic Robokid
Buggy Boy
Silent Service 2
Snacman
Metal Masters
Panza Kickboxing
North and South
Mega-lo-Mania
RVF Honda
Secret Service 2
Team
Live and Let die
Wrath of the Demon
Blood Money
Ghouls and Ghosts
Operation Wolf
Sabre Team
Mr Helli
Graham Gooch's Cricket

[mwaawm]

Atari ST more than holds its own against the Amiga whose status as a gaming platform has been hugely overinflated by the fanboys and for actual computing the Amiga was nowhere near as capable.

[Turrican]

The Amiga was sloooowww meaning all the following great games were better on the ST due to better framerates:

Sorry, I think you'll have a hard time convincing everyone that a half a dozen frames in stuff like Hard Drivin or Interphase are worth of the technical hurdles which affect even the simpler platforms in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR65ZIR7KS0

[vol.2]

Sorry, I think you'll have a hard time convincing everyone that a half a dozen frames in stuff like Hard Drivin or Interphase are worth of the technical hurdles which affect even the simpler platforms in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cR65ZIR7KS0

True. That was a fun video.

I have to say though, I was jealous in the 80s of both the ST and the Amiga because we had an XT. All of those 80s games like the SSI Goldbox CRPGs were so much better looking on them than our hardware.

However, that period of dominance really came to an abrupt halt right around 1990 when 256 VGA became the defacto standard in DOS gaming and many of us had dedicated sound cards.

[MintyTheCat]

Hey, I was thinking of buying an NTSC Atari STE for music work, but also would want to check out games on it too. Are there any Atari ST owners in the house who can share their experiences? Is everything on a standard FAT readable floppy? Is it as much of a PAL/NTSC nightmare as the Commodore systems? And, what are some games that really shine on the system?

I use my Atari STE ONLY for music work.

I use Notator and Cubase 3 for sequencing.
The Atari has a wealth of music software that is hard to find on other platforms, especially for older gear.

I use a few Editors/Librarians for dealing with some of my Synths.

Lots and lots of useful utilities for configuring Synths and Drums really.

Basically, the Atari is still the best for sequencing I find.

I use other machines though for recording.

The ST can read DOS floppies, and that means 8.3 filename limitations - yes : the good old days
Games wise: I have literally no idea as I never used the ST for games.
It does have a YM24** FM chip built-in that some of the Chiptune folks like to use for creating music with and some decent trackers. I only ever use Octamed on the Amiga and haven't touched any of the Trackers on the Atari myself though.

I heartily recommend that you buy an UltraSatan:

https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=48

I have the Unitor and Midex for Midi port expansion - you can get lots and lots of gear connected up to Midi using the Atari.

I basically never use the Floppy these days and rely entirely on this SD-Card based HD emulator. It also has a RT Clock built-in too.

The guy from Velvet Acid Christ once wrote a blog post about using Cubase on the Atari compared to Windows/Mac. I can't find the article at this time, but he mentions the Atari a bit here :

https://www.nocturnalhall.com/interviews/vac_e.htm

The post that I was thinking of did some good comparisons for higher BPM rates and noted that the PC/Mac would "lose" Midi events but the Atari remained solid and didn't miss any events.

These old machines, the Amiga and the Atari are very straightforward with regards to stability, I find.

With regards to getting Dongles to work. I now have two Dongles that no longer work. Fortunately, the software that I use has been cracked and one as late as 2024 - just in time as my Dongle failed on me in the Summer of 2024
Apparently, they used GALs that broke over time - we are talking 30+ years in any case.
My Cubase 3's Dongle NEVER worked. Thank God that the Midex works fine.