Rayforce is coming to iOS

[Estebang]

The reason crappy phone ports make me mad is I think about how they could be porting them to a real handheld game system but don't.

This. I've got no beef with anyone's enjoyment of smartphone shmup ports, but the knowledge that they're being made at the expense of legitimate handheld versions is greatly disheartening. The only justification their existence has is as a source of funding for new games and "real" ports.

At least Cave has a Vita shmup in the pipeline, which will probably be either an Akai Katana port or Deathsmiles 3. When the 360 is finally abandoned in Japan (probably within the next year or two, given its current sharp decline), I could see the Vita becoming the last bastion of professionally developed Japanese shmups. Sony's requirements of a 16:9 mode for all PS3 games will likely prevent the system from becoming a viable new home for all of the genre, and the extremely poor sales of G.Rev's Mamoru-kun port don't speak well for market reception. If things get desperate, everyone might migrate to the PC/Steam market with the doujin folks, but it would take some serious pressure.

[chempop]

I couldn't be more surprised by this announcement! Not only are my top-3 Cave titles playable on my iPhone&iPad, but soon enough my favorite shmup of all time will be as well!

Layer Section was the game that made me Tate my TV for the first time, so it instantly gained a special place in my heart

Am I the only one who finds it quite frankly bizarre that semi-obscure retro shmups are being ported to smartphone? What's next, Gunbird 1&2 (I would die happy)?

Still though, a new arcade release would obviously be preferred, but in the meanwhile I'm happy to support my favorite companies cash-cow iPorts.

[ZacharyB]

The reason crappy phone ports make me mad is I think about how they could be porting them to a real handheld game system but don't.

I think the reason iPorts work for the company more than legitimate handheld console ports is that by going through the mobile marketplace, the companies must save a lot of dough on liscensing fees and physical media fees, allowing them enough saved cash to focus on other projects at the same time.

But handhelds are getting download services now too, right? Apple's products are currently the best bet for companies to turn profits that will allow them to survive until the next fiscal year, but that may change if handheld consoles reach similar levels of popularity.

What are apps coded in, C?

[BPzeBanshee]

What are apps coded in, C?

I believe it was Objective C, at least that's what's generally used for most of the Apple program stuff.

[spadgy]

the knowledge that they're being made at the expense of legitimate handheld versions is greatly disheartening.

I think the fact it that tablets/smartphones are replacing traditional handhelds, and becoming - in the industry's mind at least - the new 'legitimate' handheld. It's going to be tough for the genre to keep up.

And tablet type devices look set to dominate the evolution of the console concept too, so there's more challenges ahead!

I think 'straight ports' like Rayforce - if that's what it is - are less suited to adapting the genre to this change than shmups specifically developed for iOS (as is the case with almost any direct arcade or console port to iOS).

Still, I'm looking forward to Rayforce iOS.

[Marc]

It's such a sadness, that you think you've seen Dodonpachi Daioujou Ultra Mega Black Mode on your fucking telephone.

Get real.

Except nobody with half a brain does, fucknuts. Those of us with a bit upstairs understand we're buying a remix/arranged mode, for about three quid, that can be pulled out for a quick blast on breaks at work. You see now?

[MR_Soren]

The reason crappy phone ports make me mad is I think about how they could be porting them to a real handheld game system but don't.

This. I've got no beef with anyone's enjoyment of smartphone shmup ports, but the knowledge that they're being made at the expense of legitimate handheld versions is greatly disheartening.

Knowledge? Has this been stated anywhere? We have no evidence to suggest that the iOS ports are made at the expense of anything else. There are a lot of reasons why developers might not port their arcade games to the DS or PSP. Hiring/assigning a programmer to convert an already existing game should be among the least of those reasons.

Also, didn't Cave announce that they're going to do games for PSP Vita? It's not even out in most of the world and Cave is already supporting it. Maybe other developers will follow. The iPhone was out for about 3 years before Cave or Taito released any shoot-em-ups for it.

I think people are getting angry about a problem that does not exist.

[louisg]

The reason crappy phone ports make me mad is I think about how they could be porting them to a real handheld game system but don't.

This. I've got no beef with anyone's enjoyment of smartphone shmup ports, but the knowledge that they're being made at the expense of legitimate handheld versions is greatly disheartening.

Knowledge? Has this been stated anywhere? We have no evidence to suggest that the iOS ports are made at the expense of anything else. There are a lot of reasons why developers might not port their arcade games to the DS or PSP. Hiring/assigning one of their programmers to convert an already existing game should be among the least of those reasons.

Also, didn't Cave announce that they're going to do games for PSP Vita? It's not even out in most of the world and Cave is already supporting it. Maybe other developers will follow. The iPhone was out for about 3 years before Cave or Taito released any shoot-em-ups for it.

I think people are getting angry about a problem that does not exist.

Totally agreed. Also: DS games are $40, and the unit is horizontal orientation only. And the D-Pad is clunky. And the iPhone ports are damn near perfect and extremely playable.

[Estebang]

They're "extremely playable" because you can zoom around everywhere in 360 degrees like a mouse cursor.

And the D-Pad is clunky.

Not on the DS Phat, and the PSP-3000 has an excellent D-pad. The Vita probably also does. Also FYI, the PSP port of the Gamecube Star Soldier has a tate mode that works really well.

If not for smartphones' dominance, you know we'd be seeing more projects like Ketsui Death Label. True, that was a wee little boss rush to show off Ikeda's programming skills, but it was great fun in short bursts and served as a very accurate downscaled version of the arcade game. One could actually use it to practice for the real thing. I'm sure we would have seen another port like that (probably a full game, as opposed to another boss rush) if Cave had held off from the iPhone business for another year.

[MR_Soren]

The DS came out in 2004. Could be technical issues, political issues, control issues, market issues, screen issues, licensing issues, or Nintendo being a bitch, but developers weren't interested in DS ports of old arcade games. Mihara (at Arika, not Cave) coded Ketsui Death Label while sitting in a hospital with cancer. It was not followed with additional ports, despite being a relatively simple task.

Taito was actively making games and peripherals for the DS, and were putting out their Taito Legends compilations for other platforms. Somehow, in this flurry of activity, they never ported their old shoot-em-ups to the DS, and even Rayforce got left off the PSP version of Taito Legends. It's certainly not because the idea never occurred to them. They decided it was not feasible.

These decisions were made independently and at a time when the iPhone either didn't exist or didn't matter. I know everybody likes to have a scapegoat to blame, but the iPhone is innocent. There is no reason to rain on one parade just because another parade never happened.

Go buy a Vita and I'll be happy about all the cool games you guys get to play on your "real" handheld because more shoot-em-ups is a good thing and I know the iOS games aren't going to be hurt by it.

[Marc]

They're "extremely playable" because you can zoom around everywhere in 360 degrees like a mouse cursor.

And the D-Pad is clunky.

Not on the DS Phat, and the PSP-3000 has an excellent D-pad. The Vita probably also does. Also FYI, the PSP port of the Gamecube Star Soldier has a tate mode that works really well.

If not for smartphones' dominance, you know we'd be seeing more projects like Ketsui Death Label. True, that was a wee little boss rush to show off Ikeda's programming skills, but it was great fun in short bursts and served as a very accurate downscaled version of the arcade game. One could actually use it to practice for the real thing. I'm sure we would have seen another port like that (probably a full game, as opposed to another boss rush) if Cave had held off from the iPhone business for another year.

How do you 'know' this? Do you have a hotline to Cave? Have you ever considered thatif it wasn't for phone gaming, some Dev's might collapse altogether? Phone gaming is doing well because it's low-entry, and makes a decent profit for the investment. Don't blame phones, blame an industry that sees bigger, better, faster as the way forward, despite the fact that Dev teams are dropping with alarming frequency. Blame the clamour for the next-gen, never mind that this one hasn't been tapped yet. cave have a Vita shooter coming. My prediction is it will sell fuck all, and if it wasn't for the mobile revenue stream that would spell disaster.

[Elixir]

It's such a sadness, that you think you've seen Dodonpachi Daioujou Ultra Mega Black Mode on your fucking telephone.

Get real.

Except nobody with half a brain does, fucknuts. Those of us with a bit upstairs understand we're buying a remix/arranged mode, for about three quid, that can be pulled out for a quick blast on breaks at work. You see now?

Actually, I'm fairly certain the mass majority of iOS owners and iOS game players haven't even heard of a bullet hell shmup before.

The only real evident difference is that they're completely dumbed down compared to the real thing for a casual audience. What they understand is that they're buying a game.

I really hope Mushihimesama is ported to 360. Ironic, how accessibility is cutting off its nose to spite its face.

[TheSoundofRed]

All this debate about whether the iPhone ports are good for the genre are moot as it's been said countless times that the ports are obviously done by a separate division, and have no impact on the development of projects on other platforms. Especially at Cave, where a game's development is managed by only a handful of on staff employees.

It's terrible that there's this blatant elitist attitude toward anyone who enjoys iPhone STGs on this forum. If you really wanted to be true to the arcade STG experience, you'd be like some of the few who own an arcade cab or supergun and buy PCBs.

[Icarus]

People are looking down on a shooting game on a 3.2in vertically oriented screen, but want the same game or similar on a 3.2in horizontally oriented screen?
What?

Also:



Doesn't look or play like it's dumbed down to me.

[louisg]

Actually, I'm fairly certain the mass majority of iOS owners and iOS game players haven't even heard of a bullet hell shmup before.

The only real evident difference is that they're completely dumbed down compared to the real thing for a casual audience. What they understand is that they're buying a game.

Most people buying it certainly haven't. I'm sure the fact that they could offer it for an impulse-buy price factors into what platform they think they should release it on. Maybe we'll see a DS port that's downloadable for a few bucks; who knows.

Fewer bullets may be more a limitation of the small viewing area than anything else-- DFK gets damn busy, and sometimes it's a little hard to see (kind of like when I used to play Mars Matrix on my 15" TV vs. my 30" one I have now). But as Icarus mentioned, the viewable area in a system which is vertical orientation is a little larger than it would be on the DS.

As far as the PSP tate mode goes, I'll believe it works when I see it. I can't imagine holding the controls sideways is comfortable in any way.

[MathU]

Doesn't look or play like it's dumbed down to me.

Surely you're not arguing that touchscreen controls are as good as digital input in an action-oriented 2D arcade game. Touch screen controls have their uses in other genres, but this is not one of them.

[Elixir]

If you really wanted to be true to the arcade STG experience, you'd be like some of the few who own an arcade cab or supergun and buy PCBs.

Let's see... I own an arcade cabinet, I've owned arguably the best Supergun manufactured, and I would still prefer Mushihimesama for 360. iOS is way too out of my comfort zone (touch related, mostly) for me to even remotely care.

It's not so much being inadequate to the original as it is, the original is nowhere near as accessible at this point. Mushihimesama's PS2 port is expensive and out of print, even moreso concerning the PCB. And of course, who is going to drop $400-500 USD (I guess this is Mushi's going rate?) to play it?

As far as the PSP tate mode goes, I'll believe it works when I see it.

I did this years ago. It works, and could work for Vita, but is not really practical.

[BrianC]

The only real evident difference is that they're completely dumbed down compared to the real thing for a casual audience.

I'm guessing that screen isn't Ultra mode with the hell difficulty (the setting closest to the arcade)? Hell mode on iPhone has much more bullets, in comparison to normal and hard. I would like to see how the versions compare in motion. I'm wondering if the port is missing slowdown with how Deathsmiles and Mushihimesama Futari run on Xbox.

I'm not sure if the casual audience will be getting the iPhone Cave games. A couple of Cave's games are more expensive than some of the other iPhone games. I'm under the impression that most causal players would go for something like angry birds instead.

[TheSoundofRed]

It's not so much being inadequate to the original as it is, the original is nowhere near as accessible at this point. Mushihimesama's PS2 port is expensive and out of print, even moreso concerning the PCB. And of course, who is going to drop $400-500 USD (I guess this is Mushi's going rate?) to play it?

I would prefer a 360 port as well, as would most people frequenting this site (why else do i have arcade sticks and tate setups?). My main point was just to say that the port to iOS devices does not rule out the possibility of a future 360 version.

I guess everyone would be much happier if Mushi was ported to the 360 FIRST, so there wasn't any feeling of inadequate control or small display, etc on a version that is the most accesible.

[Estebang]

The argument you guys are having about whether the smartphone ports have enough bullets onscreen is meaningless, because the METHOD OF CONTROL USED TO DODGE THEM is completely different. Just blow up a video of a Cave game to fullscreen and wave your mouse cursor over it, dodging the bullets. A lot easier, isn't it?

I'm not saying that a shmup specifically made for mouse or touch controls can't work--in fact, some already have. It's when they're forced into arcade games designed around an 8-way digital stick, or at least a D-pad, that I put my foot down.

And no, virtual D-pads are never an acceptable substitute. I'd be even more displeased with the ports if they'd forced you to use them.

[louisg]

And no, virtual D-pads are never an acceptable substitute. I'd be even more displeased with the ports if they'd forced you to use them.

Yeah, those are unusable. I'd think people would have a more legitimate gripe if Cave games controlled as badly as a lot of other companies' games on the iPhone. They did a good job though-- the worst complaint I can level at it is that it feels a little like cheating and it's not quite as *fun* as playing with a stick or even a pad.

[Drum]

Why the fuck are people talking about the OG DS? Clearly 3DS and Vita are the 'real' handheld systems people want to see games like Raystorm on. Baffling.
Raystorm would look great on the 3DS especially - it's a perfect fit for the platform.

[MathU]

Yeah, I would absolutely love for someone to take advantage of the 3DS's 3D for with a game like Rayforce with multiple layers to the playing field. I really hope something does something like that eventually.

[louisg]

Yeah, I would absolutely love for someone to take advantage of the 3DS's 3D for with a game like Rayforce with multiple layers to the playing field. I really hope something does something like that eventually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFL7h_jX5jg

[Obiwanshinobi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFL7h_jX5jg

Whoa, I thought Solar Striker was the only Nintendo shmup out there. Guess it all comes down to the Gunpei Yokoi's involvement. Is the lady supposed to be Samus Aran?

[Drum]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFL7h_jX5jg

Whoa, I thought Solar Striker was the only Nintendo shmup out there. Guess it all comes down to the Gunpei Yokoi's involvement. Is the lady supposed to be Samus Aran?

Hudson was on coding duties, so not quite. Only other Nintendo shooters I can think of are their real early games like the space invaders clones, Radar Scope and Sheriff. There's also Strato Patrol EOS from Mass Attack - I guess HAL counts as Nintendo these days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ABKiiQ6tw

[BrianC]

Only other Nintendo shooters I can think of are their real early games like the space invaders clones, Radar Scope and Sheriff. There's also Strato Patrol EOS from Mass Attack - I guess HAL counts as Nintendo these days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5ABKiiQ6tw

There are also shmup mini games in a couple of the Wario Ware games and a shmup on the Game Boy Camera.

Here's another 3D shmup:
Blade Eagle 3D for Sega Master System

[MathU]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFL7h_jX5jg

Yeah, exactly. I want to see a 2D shooter like that on the 3DS. I've been hoping Nintendo does some Virtual Boy ports as well, including Vertical Force.

[Marc]

The argument you guys are having about whether the smartphone ports have enough bullets onscreen is meaningless, because the METHOD OF CONTROL USED TO DODGE THEM is completely different. Just blow up a video of a Cave game to fullscreen and wave your mouse cursor over it, dodging the bullets. A lot easier, isn't it?

I'm not saying that a shmup specifically made for mouse or touch controls can't work--in fact, some already have. It's when they're forced into arcade games designed around an 8-way digital stick, or at least a D-pad, that I put my foot down.

And no, virtual D-pads are never an acceptable substitute. I'd be even more displeased with the ports if they'd forced you to use them.

Fucking hell, for the final time, WE KNOW. The point being, for someone like myself that simply wouldn't bother with mobile gaming if it wasn't for the convenience of my phone - it's a perfectly acceptable substitute for the few hours a week I use it.

And those of you that think any of these Devs would be pouring money into DS/PSV if it wasn't for smartphones really are living in dreamland. More likely they simply wouldn't bother.

[spadgy]

The only real evident difference is that they're completely dumbed down compared to the real thing for a casual audience.

Even if this is the case, what's the real harm in that? It might get more people into the genre, which is good for players, the community and the developers. I'd say 'reapropriated for a new platform, playing environment and broader audience' instead of 'completely dumbed down compared to the real thing'. I guess we're seeing a different thing from the same viewpoint. Mushi iOS was quite different from the original, but I relish difference and variety, even if everything in the spectrum of that difference isn't all to my liking.

I've had a lot of fun with lots of the iOS shmups, and I like fun!