Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

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Skykid
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Skykid »

neorichieb1971 wrote:I don't know the USA or Europe for that matter, but in the UK its homes that kills people. The prices are high, banks are not lending and those on the housing ladder are in a high risk situation. This in turn causes the economy to shrink...

So everyone in the UK, move in with your relations, sell your gaff and buy lots of iphones and nice shiny cars with the money you saved. There, you saved your own country already.
Lol, funny cos it's true. Except it's not funny, it's dreadful. :idea:
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by O. Van Bruce »

Here in Spain we had a huge inmobiliary bubble that exploded taking away almost a third of the real economy of my country... it's obvious to say that the bubble should have exploded years before having less consequences on our economy but the politicians didn't care.

The PSOE (Partido socialista Obrero Español = Socialist party of the spanish workers; socialists, my ass)... kept their eyes away from the danger cause it gave then social credit and votes... but when the crisis came, they said there was none for over an entire year, even when people had noticed that it really was a crisis, a big one.

and banks in their greediness, kept allowing loans to people, even if they were more aware than the government of the upcoming crisis. So when it came, they simply shut their pockets and let fall all of the small and medium companies that were sustained by the inmobiliary and building sector. Even if the spanish financial sector is one of the healthiest in the world, they simply let other companies fall even after recievieng million of euros from the "socialist" government... so, today we have this unemployment taxes mainly because those banks didn't helped the economy when they were most needed.

The collective rage is so big against then that there is an organized anti-eviction movement as banks are starting to take away the houses of those who lent their money.

What is more funny is what happened in the elections on the 20th of November. Instead for voting to a true left-winged party like IU (Izquierda Unida- United left-wing) they voted for the epytome of what represents banks and big corporations: The Partido Popular (The Popular Party). a bunch of neoliberals who, as they said, will carry on with whatever they want to do even if the labor unions or the people don't approve of it (cause this country has gave the more than the 50% of the seats on the congress of deputies).

I simply can't understand this country, but i hate all of those bankers and rating agencies who has brought us to this...

damm then!!! they make us dcut our budget so much and even so, the spanish debt has to be sold at an 8% of interest! Even now, they try to make a profit even if it can mean bankruptcy for us...
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Its very rare people can profit so openly in something that doesn't change in description for a long time before someone ends up losing out.

Shares, Homes, Castlevania on PC Engine.. Matters not what it is... The price will climb until it becomes literally worthless or loses a hell of a lot.
This industry has become 2 dimensional as it transcended into a 3D world.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by O. Van Bruce »

neorichieb1971 wrote:Its very rare people can profit so openly in something that doesn't change in description for a long time before someone ends up losing out.

Shares, Homes, Castlevania on PC Engine.. Matters not what it is... The price will climb until it becomes literally worthless or loses a hell of a lot.
The funny thing is that on 1997, 90 m^2 were sold for 80.000 euros and at 2007 the price could be as much as 350.000 euros. and what is despairing is that the propietary are trying to sell it for 300.000 euros today.

Mix it with an anti-rent society and laws like those in my country and they will be never be rented, even less sold...
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by xbl0x180 »

The worst part is that some of the housing problems plaguing people in the U.S. right now coulda been solved by not bailing out the banks. Without the billions dumped on the rich bankers, they woulda been forced to rewrite all those home loans back to real-life prices. Instead, the banks got their money back, kept the houses at inflated/unreal prices, and a bunch of people are stuck in "underwater" mortgages (loans that are worth more than the actual house value). I don't blame those who just walk away from these scams. After all, the rich used their influence with the govt. to fix things their way and, thus, pushing out the remnants of whatever was left of the "middle class" (now virtually extinct in some areas) 8)
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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xbl0x180 wrote:The worst part is that some of the housing problems plaguing people in the U.S. right now coulda been solved by not bailing out the banks. Without the billions dumped on the rich bankers, they woulda been forced to rewrite all those home loans back to real-life prices. Instead, the banks got their money back, kept the houses at inflated/unreal prices, and a bunch of people are stuck in "underwater" mortgages (loans that are worth more than the actual house value). I don't blame those who just walk away from these scams. After all, the rich used their influence with the govt. to fix things their way and, thus, pushing out the remnants of whatever was left of the "middle class" (now virtually extinct in some areas) 8)
When Goldman Sachs own the US Treasury, it's as easy as popping down to the Federal Reserve to make a withdrawal. That way everyone gets their 6 million dollar bonus and everyone is happy.

Except the 99% of the population who don't benefit whatsoever.

Sick world, sick system. It's a shame there needs to be a genuine mass robbery before people actually sit up and take notice.

How are those anti-capitalist protests going over on Wall Street (are they still there?) I think the guys in the UK are still camped outside St Pauls. :idea:
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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xbl0x180 wrote:The worst part is that some of the housing problems plaguing people in the U.S. right now coulda been solved by not bailing out the banks.
As much as I wish it were that simple, considering what happened after Lehman Brothers was allowed to fail I'm not convinced that doing the same to everyone would have solved the problem. If you ask me we should have kept the regulations which prevented banks from mixing consumer and investment services together and growing "too big to fail" in the first place, and the first step toward recovery ought to be to reinstate and reinforce them, but the industry's inevitable toddler temper tantrums in the face of even the slightest inconvenience continue to hold far more sway than they ought to.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Udderdude »

Skykid wrote:How are those anti-capitalist protests going over on Wall Street (are they still there?)
I believe most of them have been forcefully evicted by now.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by xbl0x180 »

BulletMagnet wrote:
xbl0x180 wrote:The worst part is that some of the housing problems plaguing people in the U.S. right now coulda been solved by not bailing out the banks.
As much as I wish it were that simple, considering what happened after Lehman Brothers was allowed to fail I'm not convinced that doing the same to everyone would have solved the problem. If you ask me we should have kept the regulations which prevented banks from mixing consumer and investment services together and growing "too big to fail" in the first place, and the first step toward recovery ought to be to reinstate and reinforce them, but the industry's inevitable toddler temper tantrums in the face of even the slightest inconvenience continue to hold far more sway than they ought to.
Just for my edification, what was the result of letting Lehman Brothers fail?
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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I'm not enough of an economist by far to explain much in terms of details, but generally Lehman's collapse is considered the trigger for the larger-scale financial collapse to follow. As Wikipedia summarizes it:
Immediately following the bankruptcy filing, an already distressed financial market began a period of extreme volatility, during which the Dow experienced its largest one day point loss, largest intra-day range (more than 1,000 points) and largest daily point gain. What followed was what many have called the “perfect storm” of economic distress factors and eventually a $700bn bailout package (Troubled Asset Relief Program) prepared by Henry Paulson, Secretary of the Treasury, and approved by Congress. The Dow eventually closed at a new six-year low of 7,552.29 on November 20, followed by a further drop to 6626 by March of the next year.

The fall of Lehman also had a strong effect on small private investors such as bond holders and holders of so-called Minibonds. In Germany structured products, often based on an index, were sold mostly to private investors, elderly, retired persons, students and families. Most of those now worthless derivatives were sold by the German arm of Citigroup, the German Citibank now owned by Crédit Mutuel.
Again, some of this can probably be blamed on irrational behavior in the wake of the event by the rest of the financial industry, but that doesn't change my opinion that it'd be a lot better to prevent these sorts of scenarios from arising in the first place, since the industry's conduct has never, to my knowledge, been encouraging in the face of it.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by xbl0x180 »

The thing is is that the trillion-dollar bailout (which also includes the interest-free loans rich people got) didn't provide any solution for this not happening again. It's business as usual again, except more of the game pieces are now being held by the banks and their rich friends. If there had been no bailout, this corrupt system woulda collapsed... which is what still needs to happen. Forget restructuring; some things should be built from scratch.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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xbl0x180 wrote:The thing is is that the trillion-dollar bailout (which also includes the interest-free loans rich people got) didn't provide any solution for this not happening again.
I certainly can't argue that point - I definitely wish that TARP had had some real strings attached (then again, Bush is the one who wrote it up, despite how many cons like to lay it at Obama's feet, so one shouldn't really be surprised). That said, an all-out collapse of the system as it stands would have resulted in even more "collateral damage" than we're seeing now, which isn't exactly an encouraging thought - loads of people, even those who had been working hard and saving despite all the (still employed, somehow) financial gurus' insistence that all you needed to do was keep flipping houses forever to get rich, are having a rough time through no fault of their own (again, their earning power has already been sapped away for decades now), and if nothing else we ought to take their situation into consideration when deciding where to go from here.

In any event, we're kinda tiptoeing away from Europe here...
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Specineff »

BulletMagnet wrote:Vote for someone who's willing to lend them a halfway-decent shovel to dig themselves out (and maybe even throw in an air freshener too if you really want to tread deep into Socialist territory), for starters.
Didn't want to leave your post unanswered, BM. First, I'm not a citizen, so I can't vote here in the USA. But even so, it's up to the recipient of the shovel to willingly use such shovel. And with the climate of "The government/banks/Eastern Bunny should be fixing this crisis!" I doubt the recipient will. I will finish my comments by simply saying that in one hand, everyone wants to live their life the way they want, but in the other, it's always someone else's fault when something goes wrong. Right?
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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Specineff wrote:In one hand, everyone wants to live their life the way they want, but in the other, it's always someone else's fault when something goes wrong. Right?
Yes and no. You make it too simple.

I doubt that, say, I can blame myself for an Italian government (Berlusconi and buddies) that had no fucking clue on own to handle the crisis in 2008, let alone now. I did not vote them. I have not voted in a while, actually. So, the EU crisis is indeed someone's fault, not mine. But the crisis itself was not even started by them, so I wouldn't blame them. Who to blame, if not the bankers? Did I invent the derivatives, by chance?

The point is the single EUROPEAN citizen can't go and fix a huge debt crisis started by greedy beyond relief investors and governments who had no clue.

The whole Aynrandian mantra of "I am the sole governor of my destiny" may work well with private debt (single individuals getting indebted), but the current problem in several countries is public debt (governments getting indebted). So, who to blame, then?

For the public one, Joe citizen can't go wrong in blaming someone else (unless Joe is a banker, ehi!). One thing could be that, say, if there are elections, Joe citizen can go and vote some government that may know a way to fix the problem, so that competent people could do their job, and fix the citizen's problems.

As Van Bruce pointed out, Spanish people voted Rajoy, who is the protegé of Aznar, the Reaganite who placed Spain in the imbalance position it is now. Just to be sure, Zapatero and his government made a mess with the estate bubble, but Aznar deregulated everything, and made consistent tax cuts to the rich (Van Bruce is free to correct me on this).

Spaniards voted the ones who set up the mess, since the alternative would have been to vote the ones who triggered the mess. In other words, the recent election in Spain was much like that old episode of the Simpsons in which US citizens had to vote for Kang or Kong, the two aliens.

An alternative would have been to vote THE COMMUNISTS of Izquierda unida (capitals for scaring effect). To be fair, I really wonder if any of the more serious european left parties have a clue about *the existence* of economics, let alone have a good, smart plan to solve the problem.

I have my own prejudices, and I think that what passes as "left" these days in Europe is mostly wannabe hippies that buy crystal and hug trees. That won't feed mouths and solve problems. And that's the alternative on the left. On the right, we get neo-nazis and xenophobic parties like True Finns, i.e. people who also have not the slightest clue of anything.

So, we can blame Joe citizen for making the wrong choices, and that would be easy. But who are we to blame, if Joe citizen exercises a constitutional right that has become a farce? I'd say that Joe citizen didn't corrupt the politicians, although some Joe citizens are also politicians who were in just for the corruption creampie ("fill me with money, I am your fiscal slut!").

Then, of course, there's the whole circus of politics and "people of power" who need to get elected, hence they need to blame someone ELSE for the crisis, and the solutions to the crisis.

Trade unions in Italy are protesting that retirement salaries can't be touched at all: their old, staunch supporters would become poor. Everybody is complaining about an estate tax on owned houses, with Berlusconi blaming the communists for this tax. The current Prime Minister, Mario Monti, is a bilderberger, an ex-Goldman and Sachs executive, and definitely not a communist.

They do so without making a distinction that further taxes on some people ended up getting fat retirements, by doing menial jobs at the right historical times. Or, that they could buy a house for peebles, until a few years ago (by current standards, my grandparents paid a tuscan-style villa for 50k euros, in 1996).

Their grandsons, the ones taking the brunt of the crisis, have a BA and tons of skills, and are getting paid pebbles.

Who the trade unions are supporting? The young and poor, or the rich pensioners who finance them? Who are they blaming? Berlusconi and the Goldman Sachs man, of course.

Who Berlusconi is supporting? The young and poor, or his tax-evading voters, with their shady estate properties? Who is Berlusconi blaming? The communists and the Goldman Sachs man, of course.

Does all of this makes sense? No, of course. Would we get better, by having politicians and leaders to stop following the masses, and stop blaming the wrong people? Probably. Can Joe citizen do something useful? Yes, don't get in debt and fistfuck the bankers until brains go back were they should have been, while reading a Dr Touserplank post to them, for great justice.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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Okay, so I just finished watching the documentary movie, 'The Flaw.'

I finally understand what a CDO is, something that was explained in too much complexity in Inside Job. It's really an easy money Casino to those Wall Street bankers. Sell these sub-primes, package the debt, sell the debt for profit, get rewarded with a 100k bonus.

Capitalism has been allowed to eat itself because of irresponsibility and greed. When an opportunity is made available to make quick and easy money, it's difficult for people in a lucrative position to ignore - I can't blame them for that. But if it was regulated properly, by people with a genuine interest in making sure that the distribution of wealth is maintained at an even level and bubbles were aggressively avoided, it would never happen.

It's primarily the interests of the elite wanting even more wealth that has seen the standard of living drop so dramatically since the 50's, that they would pay off regulatory agencies and de-regulate by way of purchased legislation the entire foundations of their business. It's shocking, and should capitalism survive I hope this particular lending/credit error mistake is one they won't make again - but I do wonder if they'll find a way to make a similar mistake one way or another.

I feel awful for all those poor people whose property 'assets' have since ruined their lives. Not a pretty situation. Hopefully if they can hold onto their mortgages, one day they may live to see the value break even or even exceed the purchase price again - but then the US doesn't have a history of wildly escalating property booms.

Personally I'd just like to see the distribution of wealth become a touch more realistic: folks need an increase in wages, but that top 1% of rich are holding all the money.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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Specineff wrote:But even so, it's up to the recipient of the shovel to willingly use such shovel. And with the climate of "The government/banks/Eastern Bunny should be fixing this crisis!" I doubt the recipient will.
You're right that all of the responsibility can't and shouldn't be placed at the feet of the powers that be, but at the same time you've got free-market stalwarts insisting on the record that "there's no such thing as high unemployment, it just means that more people are making a conscious choice to not work", which is squarely at the other end of the ridiculousness spectrum but somehow gets free air time on cable news (personally, I hear a lot more of the "free market/bootstraps" stuff these days than "let the government fix that", but maybe it's just me).

Will some people always be looking for a free lunch and a way out of doing a darn thing for themselves? Sure, there are always a few. Does this group include a majority of humanity? I personally don't think it does: humanity as a group can be lazy and dodgy, of course, but I really don't think that claims of "poor, sick people actually just enjoy being poor and sick, so it's pointless to give them a second thought, ever" hold any water. I don't consider it TOO much of a stretch to think that most such people, if they suddenly had enough resources to build themselves and their families a decent living and become more or less self-sufficient, would be more likely do just that instead of blowing the whole thing on drugs and hookers before lining up for another handout. Mind you, there's no way to "prove" this sort of thing beyond a shadow of a doubt, but I'd think that possessing at least this minimal trust in one's fellow man is a necessity for anything resembling civilized society.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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BulletMagnet wrote:
Specineff wrote:But even so, it's up to the recipient of the shovel to willingly use such shovel. And with the climate of "The government/banks/Eastern Bunny should be fixing this crisis!" I doubt the recipient will.
You're right that all of the responsibility can't and shouldn't be placed at the feet of the powers that be, but at the same time you've got free-market stalwarts insisting on the record that "there's no such thing as high unemployment, it just means that more people are making a conscious choice to not work", which is squarely at the other end of the ridiculousness spectrum but somehow gets free air time on cable news (personally, I hear a lot more of the "free market/bootstraps" stuff these days than "let the government fix that", but maybe it's just me).

Will some people always be looking for a free lunch and a way out of doing a darn thing for themselves? Sure, there are always a few. Does this group include a majority of humanity? I personally don't think it does: humanity as a group can be lazy and dodgy, of course, but I really don't think that claims of "poor, sick people actually just enjoy being poor and sick, so it's pointless to give them a second thought, ever" hold any water. I don't consider it TOO much of a stretch to think that most such people, if they suddenly had enough resources to build themselves and their families a decent living and become more or less self-sufficient, would be more likely do just that instead of blowing the whole thing on drugs and hookers before lining up for another handout. Mind you, there's no way to "prove" this sort of thing beyond a shadow of a doubt, but I'd think that possessing at least this minimal trust in one's fellow man is a necessity for anything resembling civilized society.
Well in the UK there is an unwillingness to work because the wages are so low it's easier (and sometimes financially better!) to claim benefits. I don't think you have this issue in the US because there's a much larger gulf of difference in government credit benefits and low wage employment.

It's the most ass backward social situation issue going, but the government aren't really holding the cards to change it. If they could uniformly demand all major businesses to increase wages for core workers it would encourage the jobless to serve fries because they would be markedly better off.
Unfortunately that kind of enforcement leads corporations to simply relocate their business abroad and the government says goodbye to more tax.

Talk about a catch 22.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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Skykid wrote:Well in the UK there is an unwillingness to work because the wages are so low it's easier (and sometimes financially better!) to claim benefits. I don't think you have this issue in the US because there's a much larger gulf of difference in government credit benefits and low wage employment.
I'd say that to whatever extent this is true it's more a matter of our government being stingier than the private sector being more generous, but that's getting even more OT than we are already.
If they could uniformly demand all major businesses to increase wages for core workers it would encourage the jobless to serve fries because they would be markedly better off.
Unfortunately that kind of enforcement leads corporations to simply relocate their business abroad and the government says goodbye to more tax.
As I've suggested before, the main problem here is that behavior which would be considered totally unacceptable and socially reprehensible if perpetrated by an individual (i.e. suddenly packing up and abandoning those dependent on him because he's heard there's easier money elsewhere) becomes not only acceptable but expected once a corporation does it ("hey, it's just business...gotta stay competitive"). If the latter were held to the same standards and given the same sort of social responsibility as the rest of us, maybe they wouldn't be in such a hurry to be legally declared "people".
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

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BulletMagnet wrote: As I've suggested before, the main problem here is that behavior which would be considered totally unacceptable and socially reprehensible if perpetrated by an individual (i.e. suddenly packing up and abandoning those dependent on him because he's heard there's easier money elsewhere) becomes not only acceptable but expected once a corporation does it ("hey, it's just business...gotta stay competitive"). If the latter were held to the same standards and given the same sort of social responsibility as the rest of us, maybe they wouldn't be in such a hurry to be legally declared "people".
Absolutely, and that's something that always boggled me. When the US was arguably at its most economically efficient in the 1950's, when the even distribution of wealth was at its peak, why didn't anyone think to place sanctions and limitations on the growing corporate market? It's like you work your ass off to invest and encourage small business to become big business to build your economy - but there's no limitations whatsoever in regards to their capitalist aspirations, even if that means jumping ship.

Look at Ohio now, once the steel capital of the world: all in China. It's a real facepalm.

Speaking of China, there was an interesting snippet on tonight's Asia Business Report (the BBC do a 10 minute thing out of Singapore most days). In summary, the Chinese government has managed to effectively quell the rise of the housing market, which was escalating rapidly - they've also stepped in and done the same with food produce, which was rising, to allow increasing wages to retain an advantage.
A guest economist appraised the situation as follows: because it's not a democracy, their action is swift and effective because it doesn't follow the same political channels as we have in the west. If they need to react to a shift in economy, they have the power to implement change and restrictions quickly. According to him, they're reaping the benefits of capitalism, but are playing sensibly with the money to pro-actively avoid the errors that led the west to astronomical bubbles and busts.

It's an interesting flip side to see a government with control over an economy versus one who basically has to dig into the pockets of the taxpayer to save bankers from going bust. :|
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Specineff »

BulletMagnet wrote:
Specineff wrote:But even so, it's up to the recipient of the shovel to willingly use such shovel. And with the climate of "The government/banks/Eastern Bunny should be fixing this crisis!" I doubt the recipient will.
You're right that all of the responsibility can't and shouldn't be placed at the feet of the powers that be, but at the same time you've got free-market stalwarts insisting on the record that "there's no such thing as high unemployment, it just means that more people are making a conscious choice to not work", which is squarely at the other end of the ridiculousness spectrum but somehow gets free air time on cable news (personally, I hear a lot more of the "free market/bootstraps" stuff these days than "let the government fix that", but maybe it's just me)..
The line of thought you quoted is of course ridiculous, and I'll agree to that. It's just that at least for me, all the Wall Street/bankers and whoever else is supposedly responsible for this situation, has less effect on me than Titan's gravity. That's my two cents, carry on, and sorry for the temporary derail.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by xbl0x180 »

Just wait until you're in an underwater mortgage, the bank won't return your calls, and your family is under constant threat of foreclosure/eviction. Hey, don't mind me, I'm just minding my own since it don't affect me. I could probably say the same of state legislation against illegal aliens from Mexico... no effect on me; one may as well be talking about Mexicans living on Mars 8)
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by O. Van Bruce »

Skykid wrote:
Capitalism has been allowed to eat itself because of irresponsibility and greed. When an opportunity is made available to make quick and easy money, it's difficult for people in a lucrative position to ignore - I can't blame them for that. But if it was regulated properly, by people with a genuine interest in making sure that the distribution of wealth is maintained at an even level and bubbles were aggressively avoided, it would never happen.
They will do it again, as it happened in 1720's England in 1847's England, on an international scale on 1873, again on 1929 and finally on 1979

Not to mention all of the minor and local crisis that have happened in the history of capitalism...

all of then happened because some inescrupulous guys started speculating more than they could.
Skykid wrote:Absolutely, and that's something that always boggled me. When the US was arguably at its most economically efficient in the 1950's, when the even distribution of wealth was at its peak, why didn't anyone think to place sanctions and limitations on the growing corporate market? It's like you work your ass off to invest and encourage small business to become big business to build your economy - but there's no limitations whatsoever in regards to their capitalist aspirations, even if that means jumping ship.
In the united states' 50's and 60's, anything that seemed minimally socialist/COMUNNIST!!!!! was brought by Satan and should be purified from AMERICA'S true heart and people (or that's was what big companies and politicians said to people...)... even today people still think that. I loled when some mid-west USA guy said that he wasn't going to vote Obama cause he didin't wanted to live in the Union of Socialist States of America...

not to mention what happened with the medical system reform that Obama proposed (GOD HELP US!!!)

PD: Changed the name of the post cause this crisis it's international... the name was just to fit what was in the article....
Last edited by O. Van Bruce on Mon Dec 05, 2011 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Randorama »

Well,
Skykid wrote: A guest economist appraised the situation as follows: because it's ONE PARTY DICTATORSHIP [Edit by R.], their action is swift and effective because it doesn't follow the same political channels as we have in the west. If they need to react to a shift in economy, they have the power to implement change and restrictions quickly. According to him, they're reaping the benefits of capitalism, but are playing sensibly with the money to pro-actively avoid the errors that led the west to astronomical bubbles and busts.
The current problem is to keep people in place. The leaders in the Communist party are fearing social unrest because of the unstable relation between growth and prices. They want to avoid sending the tanks again, and they would, if necessary. Right now, though, most officials really prefer a " wise" solution. Maybe they should legalize porn...?
It's an interesting flip side to see a government with control over an economy versus one who basically has to dig into the pockets of the taxpayer to save bankers from going bust. :|
Both are forms of control over economy. A similar effect was observed in Belgium, of all places. The country was without a government for 1 1/2 year, so elected politicians made decisions much like a board of directors. As a result, the economy became stable and was growing at a solid pace.

Other alternatives are Iceland and Argentina. In Iceland they literally started from scratch, to the effect that they rewrote the constitution to implement a system that disallows a number of "wild capitalism speculation" actions (details are somewhere in the intarwebs...). The constitution was re-written with the online input of citizens, or something like that.

In Argentina, they left Mercosur or whatever it was called, went back to Pesos, defaulted, get through a period of mass poverty (60%+ below the poverty line), recovered to 25%, and are now steady on the road to be stable G20 members. This happened by having Kirchner as a president first, and then having *his wife* elected to continue those policies. Basically, Kirchner had a recipe, everybody said 'yes', and it worked out.

In Europe, inaction is mostly driven by Sarkozy and Merkel fearing not to be elected again. Ditto with Barack, I think. When people do not vote xenophobic retards.

All in all, I'd guess that we should get rid not only with what passes as capitalism nowadays, since it is a kind of istitutionalized psychosis. We should also re-discuss a bit this whole voting thing, since it seems to be firmly part of the problem.

Mala Tempora Currunt
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by O. Van Bruce »

Randorama wrote:
In Europe, inaction is mostly driven by Sarkozy and Merkel fearing not to be elected again. Ditto with Barack, I think. When people do not vote xenophobic retards.

All in all, I'd guess that we should get rid not only with what passes as capitalism nowadays, since it is a kind of istitutionalized psychosis. We should also re-discuss a bit this whole voting thing, since it seems to be firmly part of the problem.

Mala Tempora Currunt
I'm smelling the 30's Europe political ambient... and what is terrible for my part is that i partly agree with that. The problem is, how do we exactly know where to fix the limits about the voting system... people nowadays are so idiotic as allways but what seems to have changed since older democratic times is the tight control the financial lobbies do on governments...

There are no possibilities of a new Roosevelt in today's United States or the revolutionaries and the worker's movements of the XIX century and the first quarter of the XX... There are so much control channels today... and relocation is one of the most effective...

I'm really not looking forward my future in this society...
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

Post by neorichieb1971 »

Bankers should be on capped salaries by GLOBAL law. Their children should be eaten if they play irresponsibly. Surely at this stage in the game we have concluded that bankers have more input on this problem than politicians.. So democracy has failed.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

Post by Skykid »

neorichieb1971 wrote:So democracy has failed.
Democracy is an ideal. It's never really existed in the truest meaning because powerful rich men won't allow it. We just live in another form of communism, governed by media.

The Japanese would agree I'm sure.
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

Post by xbl0x180 »

When they can't do it for themselves, they opt out:

http://news.yahoo.com/rural-suicides-me ... 57613.html
Rural Suicides Follow Medicaid Cuts
By ALAN FARNHAM | ABC News – Wed, Nov 30, 2011

Rural Suicides Follow Medicaid Cuts (ABC News)

Suicide is on the increase in rural America--nowhere so much as in western mountain states like Idaho, Wyoming and New Mexico. Mental health professionals attribute it in part to cutbacks in Medicaid funding, to the recession and to the culture of the rural West.

In Idaho, somebody kills himself every 35 hours, according to a 2009 report to Idaho's governor by the state's Council on Suicide Prevention. Their report calls suicide "a major public health issue" having a "devastating effect" on Idaho's families, churches, businesses and even schools: 65 students aged 10 and 18 killed themselves in a recent five-year period.

Last week a county sheriff in Bonneville told the Idaho Falls Post Register that his department was getting more suicide calls than in 2010—a year in which 290 Idahoans took their own lives. "We're in a spike right now," he says.

Historically the suicide rate in rural states has been higher than in urban ones. According to the most recent national data available, Alaska has the highest rate, at 24.6 suicides per 100,000 people. Next comes Wyoming (23.3), followed by New Mexico (21.1), Montana (21.0) and Nevada (20.2). Idaho ranks 6th, at 16.5. Suicide is the second-leading cause of death for Idahoans aged 15-34. Only accidents rank higher.

Kathie Garrett, co-chairman of the Idaho Council on Suicide Prevention, says the problem has gotten only worse since the recession. "The poor economy and unemployment—those put a lot of stress on people's lives," she explains. To save money, people skip doctor visits and cut back on taking prescribed medications. Cuts in Medicaid have reduced the services available to the mentally ill.

"I personally know people who lost Medicaid who've attempted suicide," says Garrett.

Reductions in funding have led to the closing of mental health offices, she says. Such closings mean more in Idaho than they would, say, in Manhattan, where a therapist can be found on every block. Before the cuts and closings, somebody in Idaho seeking therapy might have had to drive 160 miles to find it.

Kim Kane, executive director of Idaho's Suicide Prevention Action Network in Idaho says other factors explain the high rate of suicide in western mountain states. One is the greater prevalence of guns: In 2010, 63 percent of Idaho suicides involved a firearm, compared with the national average of 50 percent.

She and Garrett also say the West's pride in rugged individualism can prevent people from seeking help. Their feeling, says Kane, is that they ought to be able to pull themselves up by their mental bootstraps. Idaho is the only state not to have a suicide-prevention hotline.

Garret, who has served in the Idaho legislature, complains state policy-makers don't all view mental illness as an illness—one on a par, say, with glaucoma or pancreatitis. Their belief, she says, is that a person suffering depression ought to be able to get help from church or family, rather than from state-provided professionals. "I told them," she says of her fellow legislators, "that when I had cancer, what I needed was a doctor. My family gave me support. My church gave me faith. But I still needed a surgeon."

Dave Strong, an assessment and referral coordinator for the Eastern Idaho Regional Medical Center, says the people now most at risk, ironically, are not the most severely ill. "Schizophrenics, once they've been diagnosed and qualified by Medicaid, don't fall out of treatment," he says." They're always able to get services."

Rather, it's people suffering the first onset of their disease who have the hardest time getting treatment. With services reduced, the mildly depressed now have to wait until their condition has reached a crisis stage to before they can get medical attention.

"We wait too long now to get treatment to them," said Garrett. "It's like telling somebody with diabetes that he'll have to wait until he's in a coma." People with mental illness, she says, can and do recover. "There's a 60 to 80 percent chance they will. But it takes time. The meds are very tricky: it's not a case of one-size-fits-all." Given that seven years can pass between diagnosis and getting a successful treatment going, it's important, she says, to start early.

It's important, too, "to remind the people reading this that there is always hope. All that anybody feeling suicidal has to do to get help is call the national hotline number. Dial 800-273-TALK (8255)."
Ignore the headline, as it sounds weird to make direct correlations without any scientific or social study on the actual independent and dependent variables here. However, that suicide is one of the leading causes of death here in the U.S. is true. I wonder if the stats remain the same across the board or if suicide doesn't affect the rich nearly as much since they can afford the extortion cost of health care 8)
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

Post by Randorama »

Skykid wrote: Democracy is an ideal. It's never really existed in the truest meaning because powerful rich men won't allow it. We just live in another form of communism, governed by media.
So, you've been able to indirectly support anti-capitalism and claim that we're in a media-communist dictatorship within the same post. Well done.

Given that communism should be the polar opposite of capitalism, your comments seem quite contradictory, to put it in a mild form.

On top of that, the Communist party in China seems the only government who is willing to intervene on deranged capitalistic attitudes, while in the land of the free we have governments controlled by Goldman and Sachs, quite literally.

So, what you meant, exactly? That we are under a media dictatorship, controlled by the bankers rather than by the Comintern or the NSDAP? That, I would agree on.
The EXTREME RIGHT-WING LUNATICS FROM JAPAN (and what about the local ones?) would agree I'm sure
Fixed. Not something to brag about. Rest of Japanese having a clue about politics... doesn't compute. Care to offer proof, or is it your usual weeaboo, asian-worshipping stuff? (Rhetoric question).
"The only desire the Culture could not satisfy from within itself was one common to both the descendants of its original human stock and the machines [...]: the urge not to feel useless."

I.M. Banks, "Consider Phlebas" (1988: 43).
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (International Crisis)

Post by Skykid »

Randorama wrote:
Skykid wrote: Democracy is an ideal. It's never really existed in the truest meaning because powerful rich men won't allow it. We just live in another form of communism, governed by media.
So, you've been able to indirectly support anti-capitalism and claim that we're in a media-communist dictatorship within the same post. Well done.

Given that communism should be the polar opposite of capitalism, your comments seem quite contradictory, to put it in a mild form.

On top of that, the Communist party in China seems the only government who is willing to intervene on deranged capitalistic attitudes, while in the land of the free we have governments controlled by Goldman and Sachs, quite literally.

So, what you meant, exactly? That we are under a media dictatorship, controlled by the bankers rather than by the Comintern or the NSDAP? That, I would agree on.
The EXTREME RIGHT-WING LUNATICS FROM JAPAN (and what about the local ones?) would agree I'm sure
Fixed. Not something to brag about. Rest of Japanese having a clue about politics... doesn't compute. Care to offer proof, or is it your usual weeaboo, asian-worshipping stuff? (Rhetoric question).
Um, I'm not sure anymore what I meant. You've totally confused me because I agree with everything you've just said. :oops:

Let's just assume I meant to say exactly what you posted but it just came out the wrong way. :wink:
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Re: Why can't they do it for thenselves? (European Crisis)

Post by Specineff »

xbl0x180 wrote:Just wait until you're in an underwater mortgage, the bank won't return your calls, and your family is under constant threat of foreclosure/eviction. Hey, don't mind me, I'm just minding my own since it don't affect me. I could probably say the same of state legislation against illegal aliens from Mexico... no effect on me; one may as well be talking about Mexicans living on Mars 8)
Well, now that I know how that ball rolls, I'm taking steps to make sure I don't end up in an underwater mortgage. It's not about me believing that it doesn't affect me, but actually making sure I'm immune to its effects.
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