Japan is really going overboard with this moe thing

[O. Van Bruce]

I just don't get how moe is culturally viable. Is pedophilia not such a hot-button issue in Japan? I guess they probably don't have an equivalent of the Bible Belt, but still... I'm similarly confused about the odd comfort with which Nazi Germany is addressed in Japanese games/anime/etc, although that's a topic for another thread.

Basically, most of the japanese haven't being tought about WWII. That's why most of the japanese think that they were "heroes standing for asia against the imperialism" and they were the good ones and so on.

Just see the japanese foreign policy towards china and korea today. They hate then the same way chinese and koreans do. No nanjing, nor illegal invasions and attacks.. not even some kind of regret about the war.

It's totally opossite to what happened with germany. the average japanese is very well a reaccionary and anti-leftist.

[Skykid]

I just don't get how moe is culturally viable. Is pedophilia not such a hot-button issue in Japan?

Only from a marketing perspective.

[greg]

I just don't get how moe is culturally viable. Is pedophilia not such a hot-button issue in Japan?

Moe does not equal pedophilia. As much as I am not a fan of it, I will defend it for that, at least. Older girls can be moe stereotypes as well. Moe does not mean upskirt panty shots of eight year olds or whatever. Moe is just warm feelings for cute girls, and moe is represented by a handful of generic character stereotypes. Have those stereotyped characters react to each other in their stereotyped manner and there you have your insipid, weak plot.

Gus would like you to believe that this is way better than a show like Cardcaptor Sakura, in which you have interesting characters that you can feel moe about, but stuff actually happens. There is a plot, action, and resolution to each episode. Sakura is not exploited. There are no titillating skin exposure or any flash of undies or any sexually suggestive poses and such. But you feel good watching a show about a cute girl and her cute friends working together to collect all of the cards. That feeling you get is called moe. I think a lot of the push behind moe is that these Japanese otaku guys have sworn off real women because they figure they are too retarded to ever win the affections of one, so they live in their imaginary land of otaku anime girls and such. Yet there is still that elusive paternal instict of theirs, so moe can speak to that sense of longing in a way. They're just too retarded to sort out their feelings, so I suppose many of them get caught up in the whole pedophile thing, I guess.

Kind of reminds me of the guy who created the Dead or Alive games. He says he thinks of the girls in those games as like daughters of his. Dude, would you want your daughter to wear clothing with her titties hanging out? Not my kid.

[Skykid]

Kind of reminds me of the guy who created the Dead or Alive games. He says he thinks of the girls in those games as like daughters of his. Dude, would you want your daughter to wear clothing with her titties hanging out? Not my kid.

Yeah, but he's Japanese.

[Sumez]

Basically, most of the japanese haven't being tought about WWII. That's why most of the japanese think that they were "heroes standing for asia against the imperialism" and they were the good ones and so on.

Dude someone totally needs to tell them that they were the bad guys!
I guess if they had bombed two giant cities full of innocents they'd have been the good guys.

[greg]

Dude someone totally needs to tell them that they were the bad guys!
I guess if they had bombed two giant cities full of innocents they'd have been the good guys.

I understand the point you are trying to make, but Hiroshima and Nagasaki were hardly "giant cities." In fact, they were selected because they were military targets without a large population. Not even today are they really giant cities. They are larger cities in Japan, and very beautiful too. But they're much bigger than they were back in the '40s.

[Sumez]

So as long as you keep your civilian casualties below 200,000 per bombing run, you still get to keep your "good guy" badge? Thanks.

[DragonInstall]

I'd say it's better than sending troops to get kamikazed and die against the suicidal Japanese military. They would have to send military ships to land on Japan, and the Japanese had kamikaze pilots ready to crash into those ships.

Tough decision but I would rather my enemies die, then let my own people die. Besides, even after the first bombing, Japan didn't surrender. That's the kind of mind set you were dealing with in WWII Japan.

Isn't Japan the only country to not apologize for WWII? I know older Koreans and Chinese in general despise Japan for their attacks and ignorance to avoid the truth. Didn't the Japanese rape and killed 10 million Chinese citizens in WWII? It's been a long time since I studied history, but I recall that number since it was more than 6 million Jews.

[Sumez]

As far as I know, the US still didn't apologize, so Japan definitely can't be the only ones.

Anyway, since I'm apparently not being clear. Talking about "good guys" or "bad guys" in a war is completely pointless.

[DragonInstall]

As far as I know, the US still didn't apologize, so Japan definitely can't be the only ones.

Well Obama did from what I heard, but I don't see why he even had to honestly, since Japan's ignorance on the whole WWII.

[Skykid]

Basically, most of the japanese haven't being tought about WWII. That's why most of the japanese think that they were "heroes standing for asia against the imperialism" and they were the good ones and so on.

Dude someone totally needs to tell them that they were the bad guys!
I guess if they had bombed two giant cities full of innocents they'd have been the good guys.

They were the good guys to the Asian populations begging for salvation from the Japanese. Korea and China are eternally grateful to the US for dropping those bombs when they did.

I don't consider murdering civilians divine justice, but under the circumstances I can't blame them for their gratitude.

[DragonInstall]

Basically, most of the japanese haven't being tought about WWII. That's why most of the japanese think that they were "heroes standing for asia against the imperialism" and they were the good ones and so on

Wow really? I heard they don't teach much about it in Japan, but a complete flip flop? Koreans and Chinese hate Japan for their attacks. It's not just attacking, but they would rape women and kill all civilians including children. Although I heard the slaughtering was more against Chinese.

I find it pretty funny that they would even think they were being heroes for asia...wow.

[Skykid]

Basically, most of the japanese haven't being tought about WWII. That's why most of the japanese think that they were "heroes standing for asia against the imperialism" and they were the good ones and so on

Wow really? I heard they don't teach much about it in Japan, but a complete flip flop? Koreans and Chinese hate Japan for their attacks. It's not just attacking, but they would rape women and kill all civilians including children. Although I heard the slaughtering was more against Chinese.

I find it pretty funny that they would even think they were being heroes for asia...wow.

Spin is a wonderful thing.

Japan is well known for priding honour, therefore dishonourable (to put it lightly) acts of that magnitude are bound to be manipulated. That's part of the reason no proper apology has ever been made, as it would represent admittance of guilt.

Both Koreans and Chinese suffered ungodly torture of epic proportions, easily on par with Nazism. History is full of heinous crimes though, it's just one of many examples of the human race's capacity for evil.

[greg]

So as long as you keep your civilian casualties below 200,000 per bombing run, you still get to keep your "good guy" badge? Thanks.

Oh, whatever dude. I won't excuse the US for using the atomic bombs. They were terrible, and they were a terrible way to die. You could even say that they were war crimes. But the USA was not the aggressor in the war. We were putting an end to it. We were not the ones bayonetting civilians, raping girls and decapitating them in the streets, performing live vivisections in gruesome scientific experiments, capturing women and forcing them to become sex slaves, etc.

As heinous as they were, the A-bombs did bring a much quicker end to the war. And don't believe for a minute those idiotic history revisionists who say that Japan was about to surrender. Any country that is teaching women and children to charge at tanks with pointed sticks is not a country about to surrender.

Talking about "good guys" or "bad guys" in a war is completely pointless.

Yeah. Hitler, Mussolini, and Tojo were just a group of misunderstood, good guys. Even though there was no war with Stalin or Pol Pot, they were real swell people too. Get real.

You really need to drop this inane banter of yours since it's really derailing this topic and making you look foolish.

[Icarus]

You really need to drop this inane banter of yours since it's really derailing this topic and making you look foolish.

This topic was derailed ages ago. In light of that, I'm posting some DISTRACTION MOE.



I still haven't seen a convincing argument as to why moe is bad.

[Skykid]

So as long as you keep your civilian casualties below 200,000 per bombing run, you still get to keep your "good guy" badge? Thanks.

Oh, whatever dude. I won't excuse the US for using the atomic bombs. They were terrible, and they were a terrible way to die. You could even say that they were war crimes. But the USA was not the aggressor in the war. We were putting an end to it. We were not the ones bayonetting civilians, raping girls and decapitating them in the streets, performing live vivisections in gruesome scientific experiments, capturing women and forcing them to become sex slaves, etc.

As heinous as they were, the A-bombs did bring a much quicker end to the war. And don't believe for a minute those idiotic history revisionists who say that Japan was about to surrender. Any country that is teaching women and children to charge at tanks with pointed sticks is not a country about to surrender.

Woah, you bin readin' eh?

Despite the positivite feeling around Asia at Japan's atomic dismemberment, it's worth noting that the US didn't bomb them in an effort to help them, it just worked out that way. They weren't particularly concerned over the Asian invasion, and both rumour and fact abound at the provocation of the Japanese as a way of entering WWII. They also had those shiny new bombs and wanted to test them on someone.

Not sure how any of this ties into today's moe fad, which in contrast is *almost* insignificant compared to the war crimes of the late 30's. I suppose it does carry risks of real-life reprisal, but exploitation of the fairer sex is not a particularly new trend in Japan.

[greg]

I still haven't seen a convincing argument as to why moe is bad.

Because it's bland, dull, and vacuous. The motivation to watch an anime should be that sure, the character designs are great, but also that it is engaging because it has an entertaining story and such. The motivation should not be that I like the way the cute little girls stare blankly into space and do absolutely nothing but fit comfortably into generic personality stereotypes. Moe can happen, but moe for moe's sake is just lifeless.

And, for those of us who crave space ships and missile trails, we are really at a loss because the focus of anime is now pointed at these doe-eyed vacuous bints.

[Icarus]

Because it's bland, dull, and vacuous. The motivation to watch an anime should be that sure, the character designs are great, but also that it is engaging because it has an entertaining story and such. The motivation should not be that I like the way the cute little girls stare blankly into space and do absolutely nothing but fit comfortably into generic personality stereotypes. Moe can happen, but moe for moe's sake is just lifeless.
And, for those of us who crave space ships and missile trails, we are really at a loss because the focus of anime is now pointed at these doe-eyed vacuous bints.

Really? Are we watching the same stuff? Because only a handful of anime I've seen the past two decades have featured bland, dull and vacuous characters. Perhaps your tastes are just too narrow? Either that, or my tastes are quite broad, and I'm not as picky about my mindless entertainment as most people.

Speaking of space ships and missile trails, seen Macross Frontier? That's what I'd consider bad nowadays, and it's not even specific to moe anime or any other media: reliance on name recognition, barely held together plot, little to no character development, horrible animation despite access to modern technology. That, and Appleseed XIII, which had promise, but the "animated by a college 3D Animation class" look is off-putting, and fails for the same reasons as Macross Frontier. And don't get me started on modern Gundam, like SeeD Destiny and AGE. Half the time I feel like I'm watching a poorly scripted anime version of a Michael Bay movie. And the anime adaptation of Blade of the Immortal was a horrible abortion. So if this is what people are currently craving, I'm glad the so-called "manly anime" look and style is dead and buried, because I've seen a lot more interesting, engaging anime at the other end of the spectrum.

If anything, your rage should be pointed at excessive ecchi in anime. While I enjoyed watching particular series, anime such as Tenjou Tenge and Highschool of the Dead would have been higher up in my opinion if it wasn't for the oversized DISTRACTION TITS in every shot.

[Skykid]

And the anime adaptation of Blade of the Immortal was a horrible abortion.

Pray, mention it no more, I beg of you.

[Sumez]

You really need to drop this inane banter of yours since it's really derailing this topic and making you look foolish.

Yeah, sorry, I'll stop now and admit that the real world works just like Star Wars.

[Ruldra]

If anything, your rage should be pointed at excessive ecchi in anime.

There are three main things that makes me despise modern anime:

- Moe for moe's sake: Characters that only exists to be cute. Even worse when that's the whole point of the show (prime offender: K-On!).

- Fanservice: Pantyshots, bouncing boobs, beach/pool episode, etc. On a higher or lesser extent, it's present in pretty much every show nowadays. When you need to whore your female cast to attract viewers, something very wrong there.

- Main character is a complete wuss around women: This is more on a personal level, but I find completely idiotic when I see the main character acting oblivious and refusing to make a move while the girls are throwing themselves at the guy, even when he actually wants them. This one is present in every harem show ever, but other animes has this as well. Did that guy who married Belldandy ever managed to lay her yet, after 20+ years?

You just don't see stuff like Hokuto no Ken, Ninja Scroll and Record of Lodoss War anymore. I've come to accept that anime isn't for me anymore and I just walked away.

[Icarus]

You just don't see stuff like Hokuto no Ken, Ninja Scroll and Record of Lodoss War anymore.

While I adored the original Ninja Scroll, I have no love for Hokuto no Ken, which like many anime of the era (Urotsukidoji etc) is the shounen anime variant of the "moe problem" - violence for violence's sake, with one-dimensional characters that can't be empathised with, or plots that are of no interest, save to push more violence on screen. A problem which still persists today in anime like Bleach, Naruto and One Piece, and on a related note, Souten no Ken.

Second, harem anime isn't a modern phenomenon, as it existed decades ago in Tenchi Muyo! and earlier, with much the same genre conventions as today. Ditto moe, with the early mahou shoujo anime like Cardcaptor, and possibly earlier (though my anime history evades me at present).

Finally, while I agree on ecchi, I can live with the occasional beach/pool episode. I mean, who doesn't love the beach? lol

The main issue here is taste: while I can understand people's desire for more gritty, serious styles of anime, the industry of today has noticed that this style doesn't sell, and making money is everything. That doesn't mean that gritty, manly anime isn't being made, or isn't as good as it was decades ago. And it doesn't mean that modern cutesy anime is inferior, as there are loads of great series being made today. It just means that if your tastes are still stuck in the 80s, you'll be missing out on some great stuff today.

[Gus]

The main issue here is taste: while I can understand people's desire for more gritty, serious styles of anime, the industry of today has noticed that this style doesn't sell, and making money is everything. That doesn't mean that gritty, manly anime isn't being made, or isn't as good as it was decades ago. And it doesn't mean that modern cutesy anime is inferior, as there are loads of great series being made today. It just means that if your tastes are still stuck in the 80s, you'll be missing out on some great stuff today.

This pretty much sums it up. The people clamoring for "manly" series are very different from the people willing to fork over $100 for a blu-ray with 2 or 3 episodes.

[Moniker]

Just so I'm certain I'm on the right page: is Gunslinger Girl considered moe? The overt sexualization of the girls on that show was enough to make me quit part way through the second episode.

To get more high-falutin' about it, Michel Foucault argued that the cultural denial of sexuality to children that started in the late Victorian era actually backfired by turning any form of acknowledgement of said sexuality into something illicit, erotic and immoral. So I'm willing to give Japan the benefit of the doubt that the Victorian movement didn't reach those shores and they're operating from a mindset alien to those who grew up in the West. I don't know whether that kind of caveat ought to justly apply or not. But it could account for why I'm often scandalized by material that would never be deemed acceptable in the US mainstream market.

[drauch]

I don't understand how you compare Fist of the North Star and Urotsukidoji as the same type of manga/anime...

[Sumez]

You just don't see stuff like Hokuto no Ken, Ninja Scroll and Record of Lodoss War anymore. I've come to accept that anime isn't for me anymore and I just walked away.

They are making a new Berserk OVA. How's that for awesome?


...And if anyone claims Berserk is "violence for violence's sake" I'd be certain you've clearly never read (or seen) it.

[greg]

Perhaps your tastes are just too narrow?

I'm narrow-minded when it comes to pathetic crap.

Speaking of space ships and missile trails, seen Macross Frontier? That's what I'd consider bad nowadays, and it's not even specific to moe anime or any other media: reliance on name recognition, barely held together plot, little to no character development, horrible animation despite access to modern technology. That, and Appleseed XIII, which had promise, but the "animated by a college 3D Animation class" look is off-putting, and fails for the same reasons as Macross Frontier. And don't get me started on modern Gundam, like SeeD Destiny and AGE. Half the time I feel like I'm watching a poorly scripted anime version of a Michael Bay movie.

See, you're actually agreeing with me. It used to be that there was so much SF anime that at least some of it was bound to be great. Now it just sucks. I haven't seen the new Macross Frontier yet, but I wouldn't be surprised that it sucks. Modern Gundam sucks (still haven't seen Unicorn yet though). My gripe isn't so much about moe, but modern anime in general. This goes back to that "why modern anime sucks" thread. If there was more to choose from, it wouldn't be so bad. What about Romeo's Blue Skies? Rose of Versailles? Future Boy Conan? Galaxy Express 999? Legend of the Galactic Heroes? You don't see those anymore. Well, you do occasionally see some Matsumoto Leiji stuff still these days, at least.

I'm glad the so-called "manly anime" look and style is dead and buried, because I've seen a lot more interesting, engaging anime at the other end of the spectrum.

So manly anime sucks, but effeminate emo twats are better?

I can live with the occasional beach/pool episode. I mean, who doesn't love the beach? lol

I can live with the occasional beach/pool episode. I cannot live with the obligatory beach/pool episode.

If anything, your rage should be pointed at excessive ecchi in anime. While I enjoyed watching particular series, anime such as Tenjou Tenge and Highschool of the Dead would have been higher up in my opinion if it wasn't for the oversized DISTRACTION TITS in every shot.

Again, this is why modern anime stinks nowadays. When it comes to stuff like Fate/Stay Night, I'm more excited about the cool character designs than I am the actual show itself. A few decades ago, characterization and plot were handled differently. Now it's all rubber stamped, carbon copied so as to avoid taking the risk at making something new and refreshing. Then again, the same thing is going in Hollywood too. Everything's about bringing back nostalgia and remaking movies. Everyone's afraid of doing something new.

To get more high-falutin' about it, Michel Foucault argued that the cultural denial of sexuality to children that started in the late Victorian era actually backfired by turning any form of acknowledgement of said sexuality into something illicit, erotic and immoral. So I'm willing to give Japan the benefit of the doubt that the Victorian movement didn't reach those shores and they're operating from a mindset alien to those who grew up in the West. I don't know whether that kind of caveat ought to justly apply or not. But it could account for why I'm often scandalized by material that would never be deemed acceptable in the US mainstream market.

Japan has its own sense of Victorian prudishness. Pornography is so prevalent in Japan that it's inescapable, yet it's all censored. Genitalia is either blurred or mosaic'd. For far too long, pubic hair was considered taboo and was censored, but they started pushing the envelope enough that it's largely overlooked, thank goodness. Pubes are awesome. I can't stand the slippery dolphin/Barbie doll look. But yeah, Japan has their own set of nonsensical sexual prudishness. It's not just the West.

[Obiwanshinobi]

While I adored the original Ninja Scroll, I have no love for Hokuto no Ken, which like many anime of the era (Urotsukidoji etc) is the shounen anime variant of the "moe problem" - violence for violence's sake, with one-dimensional characters that can't be empathised with, or plots that are of no interest, save to push more violence on screen. A problem which still persists today in anime like Bleach, Naruto and One Piece, and on a related note, Souten no Ken.

I disagree about Naruto and One Piece being anything like Hokuto no Ken. To begin with, violence in Naruto and One Piece is nowhere near as porny as in Hokuto no Ken (the manga).

[bulletcurtain]

I don't want to be one of those people who thinks that everything modern is crappy by default, but at a glance, 99% of modern anime doesn't interest me in the slightest. With the exception of TTGL, just about everything from the last decade looks like something that I'd be embarrassed to be caught watching. If someone's going to walk in on me watching a scene with a chick with big tits, I'd at least like it to be a chick who looks like she's "of age".

I'll agree that most of my favorite anime from the 80's and 90's is probably as shallow as modern moe anime, but at least it's shallow in a way that people can understand. It's just a matter of preference, but when it comes to shallow content I prefer gratuitous violence over a perverse fascination with young girls. Plus, when it comes to any of my entertainment interests, I stick to the themes I like: namely sci-fi, horror, and action. For that reason, I'll stick to series like Berserk, Fist of the North Star, Gundam, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Escaflowne, Legend of Galactic Heroes, etc... Again this is just my personal preference.

I say this as someone who would like to enjoy modern anime, but I just don't get it.

[greg]

Well said. I really haven't closed my mind to modern anime, and there have been a few worth watching. It's just for the most part, there are no longer any great action and SF anime these days. They can rehash Gundam or Macross, but there's nothing new and refreshing. They won't take a chance with something like Space Adventure Cobra (although they have done some newer Cobra shows in recent years that I need to watch).

There are just way too many shows out there that are so repetitive with bland character designs, bland character personalities, and bland plots. Sure, have an episode where they go the beach or the hot spring. They did this like crazy in older shows like Orange Road and Ranma 1/2. But if the entire show is nothing but stuff like that, it gets real dull.