Explanation on why Cave shooters are in high demand?

[TGK]

The way I see it, Cave is like the EA of shmups. I don't expect innovation in a new Cave shmup, I expect something similar to DDP. But that isn't a bad thing.

I see it just the opposite. I really didn't care for shmups at all (one of my least favorite genres) untill I played ESP Ra.De and it was like a revelation because it was fun and different. To a newbie R-type etc. can seem old and boring.


Cave shooters are exciting and graphically impressive looking. I got into the genre because of how badass I felt after dodging all those bullets

That's because R-Type is not in anyway a newbie friendly game. One should not get into the genre with R-Type, or any of the Toaplan stuff before Batsugun. Those shmups requires a lot of memorization, the sort that can only come with time, after you have played a lot of shmups.

EDIT: afaik, one should not get into the genre playing anything by Irem. You will die, a lot.


What you didn't realize when playing ESP Ra De is that it plays very similar to DDP and Ketsui, which plays similar to DP. Dangun Feveron is creative, but only in the art style. The gameplay mechanic is a faster DDP. That's why I say they are the EA of shmups. They found a formula that sells well and stick to it.

[GaijinPunch]

This different feel probably has to do with the medium used to play the PS2 port on.

That's right. In fact, Mihara and Clover-TAC both said that there are subtle differences in the DOJ port compared to the arcade, but very subtle. A few frames here and there and whatnot, and Clover-TAC also, not being too terribly technical said a lot of it was probably due to differences in hardware.

It's in that Famitsu interview (very long). When asked to give a figure of how accurate it was, Clover-TAC said "about 90%". I don't know if that's good or bad, but he did say that he could feel a very slight difference in the two.

[Last Guardian]

Because Neogeo AES "collectors" are now starting to go crazy over cave kits. Shame

Well, they certainly know what's good, that's for sure.
If some become fans and start purchasing PCB's upon release it can only be good for the continuity of Cave and ultimately for those of us waiting/ hoping for ports.

[BIG]

Supply and demand,that's for sure.

That,and the fact that Cave titles are the very best manic shmups available.

B-

[Sonic R]

Perhaps people are just learning about Cave. There is alot of hype surrounding their shooters. I hadn't heard of Cave until I played DoDonpachi for Saturn last year. And just recently learned about their other shooters like Dangun and Guwange which I had on my pc for like 2 years and just finally played them. As it stands right now they are very likely the most reputiable shoother developer. There are people who never were really into shooters but found a liking to Cave shooters with their style of gameplay. Old shooters usually involved memorization and alot of trial and error (dying). Cave shooters seem to involve bullet patterns and accurate movement above all else. Perhaps this style of gameplay is what appeals to many and is such why there may be alot of Cave fans. Do I like Cave shooters? Yeah. Hell I like just about every shooter I ever played.

[Recap]

This different feel probably has to do with the medium used to play the PS2 port on.

That's right. In fact, Mihara and Clover-TAC both said that there are subtle differences in the DOJ port compared to the arcade, but very subtle. A few frames here and there and whatnot, and Clover-TAC also, not being too terribly technical said a lot of it was probably due to differences in hardware.

It's in that Famitsu interview (very long). When asked to give a figure of how accurate it was, Clover-TAC said "about 90%". I don't know if that's good or bad, but he did say that he could feel a very slight difference in the two.

Couldn't he be refering just to the slowdown differences with that? And even with some animation frames missing (where?), I'd hardly call it a "different feel". If PS2 Galuda has the same "feel" of the PCB, I can't see why Dai-Ou-Jou doesn't. Or maybe TAC just used an S-Video TV with the PS2, which, being in Japan, wouldn't be too surprising.





On topic: MAME. Cave games are known and demanded today by Western communities thanks to it.

[GaijinPunch]

Couldn't he be refering just to the slowdown differences with that? And even with some animation frames missing (where?), I'd hardly call it a "different feel". If PS2 Galuda has the same "feel" of the PCB, I can't see why Dai-Ou-Jou doesn't. Or maybe TAC just used an S-Video TV with the PS2, which, being in Japan, wouldn't be too surprising

Yes. They did, however, try to simulate the slowdown on the port. Clover-TAC was actually on the production team. He was hired for the sole purpose of hammering out differences between the PCB and the port.

-What are the actual differences between the PS2 version and the arcade version?"

Mihara: Hmmm, I wonder. If you casually play it, I don't think you'll notice the difference. However, if you lined the two up side by side...

-They feel different?

Mihara: Yes. To put it bluntly, it's an issue of slow-down. For the parts where lots of bullets come out that would've made the PCb slow down, we purposely made the port slow down. But then there are times when it REALLY slows down (laughs).

-REALLY slows down, huh?

Mihara: REALLY (laughs). We also tried to simulate that slowdown on the port (laughs). That was something we couldn't do 100%. TAC and the others would say "you're about 2 frames too fast" and then we'd adjust it (laughs). I think we were able to adjust to a very close level. What'd you think? Compared to the arcade version, no kidding, how many points would you give it?

TAC: A number? That's dificult... (laughs). Ugh... I think about 90. Also I hear there are hardware related differences... If you put the two side by side I think there would be some offset frames.

If Clover-AC think's it's 90% there, then even hardcore DOJ fans would likely think 95-96%. He no doubt knows the game inside and out. He's not a tech-guy, but his statement aludes that he thinks there's some non-slow-down related frames missed/dropped/malprocessed.

I'd hardly call it a "different feel".

I've played the PCB more, but am still not that familiar with either of them, so can't comment. Just quoting.

[SAM]

Why doesn't anybody do that these days? I guess no one cares enough.

Because "these days" are not the "old days" where ports of R-Type or Truxton/Tatsujin or Gradius were wildly different depending on the system. PCE/SMS/NES/GENNY/whatever ports of those are so different from one another (graphically as well as gameplay-wise) that comparisons were inevitable.

This situation only happaned to GWG recently, and that's why people are so mad about Taito.

But now...well, Galuda was only ported to PS2, and not that many people have played the actual PCB. So there's not much to compare to. As for, say, Shikigami No Shiro II which got ported to DC, GC and PS2, there have been comparisons made. But the fact is that all those ports are very close to each other, differences like the ones found in the "old days" are just nowhere to be found. Small differences here and there maybe, but it's mostly small stuff that doesn't really matter much. At least not when compared to the differences between R-Type SMS and R-Type PCE.

I played 10+ games of galuda at the acrade and own the PS2 port which I play alot. I can confim that these two versions are really pretty close. Slowdown, pletix, etc. Altrough the PS2 version does missing a few lines of pletix at the top and/or* bottom of the screen (in Tate Mode).

* You can choose where to miss those lines by using the screen adjustment option. I subpect you can got all the "missing lines" by using a RGB TV, since they have got a few lines more than NTSC TV. I got some of the lines back by converting the image into VGA.

[dai jou bu]

What you didn't realize when playing ESP Ra De is that it plays very similar to DDP and Ketsui, which plays similar to DP. Dangun Feveron is creative, but only in the art style. The gameplay mechanic is a faster DDP. That's why I say they are the EA of shmups. They found a formula that sells well and stick to it.

That was the other detail I forgot to mention about why I don't really think too much about Cave's games. After looking at the tutorial of ESP Ra De, I didn't really want to play it becaue of the DDP feel; I think I played it once, and not even to completion, then didn't care for it again.

Their production values are indeed high though.

[uwfan]

because their games are so f*cking good.

[cigsthecat]

Esprade plays nothing like DoDonpachi.

[GaijinPunch]

Esprade plays nothing like DoDonpachi.

Amen. Saying their games all play alike is nothing less than a crock of horseshit. Psikyo games have more in common (play just like each other) than Cave ones if you ask me.

[TVG]

OMGHI2U

y guys love cav gamse i cant understand i dont luv em how cumes somwun esle does

its always teh same

VIVA XEVIOUS ZAPATA

[The Bullet Dodger]

To me, Cave is what SNK is to the fighting game genre - strickly hardcore. I love my Cave shmups to death.

[Neon]

Dangun Feveron is creative, but only in the art style. The gameplay mechanic is a faster DDP.

You're not taking a very close look, then. That's like that one review that said Psyvariar 2 played like Ikaruga

[GaijinPunch]

You're not taking a very close look, then. That's like that one review that said Psyvariar 2 played like Ikaruga

Or that DOJ (?) was easy b/c it had unlimited credits.

[Recap]

Clover-TAC was actually on the production team. He was hired for the sole purpose of hammering out differences between the PCB and the port.

That's amazing. As far as I know, it's the first time a thing like that happens outside of the fighting genre. But wouldn't it be easier and cheaper hiring Cave staff to do that?

Just quoting.

And that was indeed interesting. Is it part of other of your interview translations?

[TVG]

that's why i like cave

anyway such small difference would probably matter to anyone that plays the arcade version very well then suddently is forced to switch to the ps2, but not for anyone else.

question, recap probably knows this, what EXACTLY is causing the ripples in "tate hosei" mode.
alsso, why does "yoko" mode loks like shit and flickers like a mofo? i know "yoko anti" is a bit better, but i still want to know.

[Recap]

This situation only happaned to GWG recently, and that's why people are so mad about Taito.

People are just mad. Taito only published the fucking game.

* You can choose where to miss those lines by using the screen adjustment option. I subpect you can got all the "missing lines" by using a RGB TV, since they have got a few lines more than NTSC TV.

You seem pretty confused about what a PAL TV is and what the RGB signal is. A PAL TV never displays (overscans) the "missing" lines from an NTSC game by itself, anyways.

[Recap]

question, recap probably knows this, what EXACTLY is causing the ripples in "tate hosei" mode.

Not sure what you mean.

alsso, why does "yoko" mode loks like shit and flickers like a mofo? i know "yoko anti" is a bit better, but i still want to know.

Yoko modes in Arika games are upscaled, hi-res displayed versions of the tate ones. Resizing the picture to keep the aspect ratio causes pixel distortion and other issues.

[TVG]

Not sure what you mean.

there's 2 tate options on the ps2, the normal tate, and something named "tate hosei"

i tried DOJ on 3 TVs, one was a big 70cm one that displayed tate properly, fullscreen without anything missing, the other two were 30cm ones, where tate mode lacked a good part of the screen, so i either need to cut off bomb display, or score, or a bit of both (thats wwhat i do)
but then, there's the "tate hosei" option, it fits the 30cm tvs perfectly, but has ripples, or as you said, pixel distortion, and i end up playing on normal tate despite the missing part.

so i guess the "tate hosei" display just resizes the display to make it fit a 30cm screen, causing the distortion, because the arcade monitor is more vertical than the TV?

is that why the psikyo packs have "ripples"?
how comes 32bit games didnt have that problem? i dont really understand the resolution thing.

[Valgar]

Clover-TAC was actually on the production team. He was hired for the sole purpose of hammering out differences between the PCB and the port.

That's amazing. As far as I know, it's the first time a thing like that happens outside of the fighting genre. But wouldn't it be easier and cheaper hiring Cave staff to do that?

Which fighting games did this? And who were the players?

[TVG]

for pretty much every capcom, namco, sega etc fighter they hire top level players for debug/beta testing/balancing. developpers cant do this by themselves.

however, its impossible to make a perfectly balanced fighting game on the first go, that's why there are revisions and updates, that's also why the bitching about rehashes is senseless.

[Recap]

there's 2 tate options on the ps2, the normal tate, and something named "tate hosei"

i tried DOJ on 3 TVs, one was a big 70cm one that displayed tate properly, fullscreen without anything missing, the other two were 30cm ones, where tate mode lacked a good part of the screen, so i either need to cut off bomb display, or score, or a bit of both (thats wwhat i do)
but then, there's the "tate hosei" option, it fits the 30cm tvs perfectly, but has ripples, or as you said, pixel distortion, and i end up playing on normal tate despite the missing part.

so i guess the "tate hosei" display just resizes the display to make it fit a 30cm screen, causing the distortion, because the arcade monitor is more vertical than the TV?

is that why the psikyo packs have "ripples"?
how comes 32bit games didnt have that problem? i dont really understand the resolution thing.

It was the "ripple" thing what I didn't understand. Tate housoi, if I recall, stretches the picture for a full screen display, since normal tate keeps the original PCB/design resolution. If you scale a picture unproportionally (either, just a bit to fill the screen in low-res mode or very much for a hi-res display), pixel distortion appears, and that's especially noticeable when the picture scrolls.

An arcade monitor is not really more "vertical" (or "horizontal") than a standard TV, and indeed, 99% of arcade systems display a 4:3 picture.

32-bit systems just couldn't use filters (and, especially the SS, had lots of different low-res modes), so game developers preferred to use their low-res modes even if they had to redraw the entire game (supposing they were porting an arcade game). Upscaling ang distorting a picture to display it in hi-res, full screen without any filter would have been too ugly for most people. They used to do that with the X 68000 ports and it just didn't work.

[Valgar]

for pretty much every capcom, namco, sega etc fighter they hire top level players for debug/beta testing/balancing. developpers cant do this by themselves.

however, its impossible to make a perfectly balanced fighting game on the first go, that's why there are revisions and updates, that's also why the bitching about rehashes is senseless.

True on the balance issue. You know I can't blame them for releasing updates. If there were actually arcades around here I would love the updates, as it would bring players back again and of course fix problems. But the amount of effort needed to draw all those frames and whatnot, making a new 2D fighter everytime would kill them financially.

[GaijinPunch]

That's amazing. As far as I know, it's the first time a thing like that happens outside of the fighting genre. But wouldn't it be easier and cheaper hiring Cave staff to do that?

Sega actively hires Chibita and other high level Virtua Fighter players for testing. Famitsu even hires them for colums. First time I've heard about it in another genre as well.

And that was indeed interesting. Is it part of other of your interview translations?

At the moment, no. That's a very long interview, although interesting. I might tackle it at one point though. Mihara put so much work into it that he deserves to be heard by everyone. The one I'm working on now, which I don't think anyone knows about b/c I found it in a pretty obscure (and 3 year old) game magazine, is also quite long, and focuses on several games from several companies. Very interesting. Probably about 7-8 pages when it's all said and done. Friends visiting next week, so if it's not done by this weekend (probably not) it won't be done until a full week later at the earliest.

Yoko modes in Arika games are upscaled, hi-res displayed versions of the tate ones

Aren't they down-scaled? They look pretty decent on my RGB monitor. I remember another TV I played on and it looked night & day compared to Tate. Still better than some other stuff I've seen, like KOF (?) on the Xbox. Maybe the sprites were just too small for my shitt eyes to tell.

[zaphod]

no, they are upscaled to high rez. arcade lowrez games are usually something in the order of 240x320, and your typical tv is about 420 high in hirez so it needs upscaling, not downscaling. downscaling to lowres woudl be totally unplayale!

[TGK]

You're not taking a very close look, then. That's like that one review that said Psyvariar 2 played like Ikaruga

Or that DOJ (?) was easy b/c it had unlimited credits.

Well, I take the Dangun Feveron remark back, since most of it does feel different except for some short part where the bullet patterns seems the same. (just replayed)

But DDP and ESPrade still feel the same to me, especially the way you get out of tough situations. You can see your improvements in Rade after practicing in DDP and vice versa.

But how does a game feel is personal taste so I won't argue with those who feel differently.

[Dylan1CC]

So what is the going price for Progear now that these hungry collectors are after these PCBs? I got my Progear green last fall for about $450.

[TGK]

no, they are upscaled to high rez. arcade lowrez games are usually something in the order of 240x320, and your typical tv is about 420 high in hirez so it needs upscaling, not downscaling. downscaling to lowres woudl be totally unplayale!

yep I agree.

Although I prefer they keep the original resolution and leave the blank space black.

Upscaling a 2D game is bad idea. Putting filters on them to make them look decent is an even worse idea (it hurts my eyes).

But I'm a bit surprise that they didn't actually make the graphics in high-res (with the right aspect ratio of course) then downscale it to arcade resolution.