Anyone else feeling the Daifukkatsu meh?

[CptRansom]

There are eleventy billion shootan gaemz out there from which you may choose. If you don't like this one, then sell it and pick something else or get better at one you already have. It's not rocket surgery. You don't need to write a novel about why the game doesn't grab you the right way and hope for validation from "the community" to make you feel better. When I got DFK, I spent two weeks trying to figure it out, getting frustrated, and trying to like it because it was new and shiny, and then feeling kinda weird when I didn't like it when it seemed like everyone else DID... then I realized how completely stupid that was and I sold it and never looked back. We all have different tastes, and these tastes can also change over time. There are too many games with all kinds of scoring systems out there... why waste potential gaming time to sit around playing something that doesn't completely sink its teeth into you?

Inb4"whywastetimeonforums"derp

[Despatche]

this is a good topic but it needs to go in the daifukkatsu thread

edit: baited

[CptRansom]

Namecalling. Brilliant. I wasn't trying to be rude or mean to anyone - sorry if it sounded that way. I'm just saying there are a ton of other games to play, so if you don't like one, why sweat it? If that makes me a fool, then I'll wear my title proudly.

[mesh control]

[NzzpNzzp]

stop playing CAVE games

But I like them. My issue is that this doesn't feel like a Cave game at all, it feels like something else. Something not nearly as fun.

[Naut]

Wow this thread sucks.

Come on, everyfuckinone knew about the autobombs, the mechalolis, the chaining, the bullet-cancelling hypers, the everyfuckinthing you people are complaining about, well before the port was released. If you didn't like any of it and you still bought it, congratulations: you're not just underwhelmed, you're also stupid.


Alternatively:

"bawwwww I suck at it so it sucks"

Very accurate. There are precious few legitimate complaints in this thread that we didn't already know about months before the port was even announced.

I didn't want to touch on any of them, but this one really irks me: Stuff like complaining that the game is too hard to score well in is just fucking laughable. The only reason people think that is because better players have already made the game their bitch. Think about it, if everybody who played this game sucked, then the high score would be lower, so when you play and get 32 and then see that the highest score is only 40 or something, you'd think you've scored well. But secretly everybody who plays is just terrible, and hopefully somebody good will show them their place soon enough. Thinking you're not scoring well or that scoring is too hard is purely you comparing yourself to better players. In this case, you suck compared to them, and for some reason you think it's the games fault. Ok.


Also the guy who said the reason he was let down by this game was because of the music needs to be shot
lol opinions

[MrFog]

I didn't want to touch on any of them, but this one really irks me: Stuff like complaining that the game is too hard to score well in is just fucking laughable. The only reason people think that is because better players have already made the game their bitch.

Yeah, that's why everyone hates Ketsui's scoring system, right? After all, people have been scoring for 8 years in that game by now.

Personally, I was disappointed as well. It just doesn't have the "Dodonpachi feel" to it, probably because of the bullet canceling hypers. The patterns tend to be absolutely overwhelming when not hypering, but when you got a hyper you just sit there and don't dodge at all.
Daioujou felt more like an extension and improvement to Dodonpachi, Daifukkatsu feels like a completely different game.

[8 1/2]

I came in from the DOJ school of hard knocks, having bloodied my knuckles on that game for months to irk out a measly 100,000,000 average score. I can't even imagine what the real number of times I've played 1-1 in that game to be.

So, given that trauma, DFK seems squarely targeted at my personal idiosyncrasies, and as such I'm probably heavily biased in its favor.

First, I have this complex where I always have to immediately try to 1CC a new shmup, and I tend to lose sight of intricate scoring systems in this initial quest. DFK opens the door like the farmer's daughter, lets you hop in the cockpit in Strong (or Bomb) mode and blaze through the campaign, at least the first loop.

With that out of the way, I settled into playing Power style, which might as well be called "the real game." As Kiken spoke of earlier, the cushion when not in Hyper or with a full gauge allows for a lot of room to screw up, miss a few guys, come in late with the laser, etc. It's amazingly forgiving in light of DOJ or even the original DDP.

The player is granted the ability to literally just wipe away the toughest patterns in the game when in Hyper. To balance this they created several brilliant systems, though I'll just highlight what I feel are the three most important.

1) Keeping your chain is only really difficult when you're nearing a full gauge. The moment-to-moment "shootin' dudes" gameplay is nearly mundane so long as you can stay alive, and chains in these bits are essentially free. It's only when you try to really understand and game the system with hypers that you will find yourself breaking chains. In this, one can even choose to forgo chaining in favor of saving hypers for tough sections, which leads into...
2) Hypers lose their ass-saving ability the better you get. Especially when playing Power, I found out very quickly that by stage 4 and 5 I could no longer just hit they hyper and take a breather while I erased the screen of bullets. Your ability to destroy incoming patterns diminishes the more you Hyper, and becomes even less effective in the second loops. This works brilliantly with the first point, in that the better you get, the more hypers you get, and the more the game really forces you to LEARN those patterns you had just been blowing away previously. If you don't feel like really learning the patterns you can just save your Hyper like a bomb, and unleash hell in only the parts where you have trouble.
3) Point-blanking. My meat-and-potatoes for quickly filling my Hyper gauge is to get up and start point-blanking enemies. This feeds back into the issue of putting the player in control. If I'm nabbing my bees and making my chains I may not have to get up so close, but if I blow it a bit, and I'm not where I want to be in my Hyper meter at a critical point, I can choose to start getting up in the grill of swarms of enemies and try to jump-start my meter. This works again in tandem with the previous point, in that the more you learn patterns, the more you're in the enemy's face, the more Hyper meters you can fill and the more you can score.

I tend to get the feeling that the reason people don't seem to respond to this game as much is because it's almost too open-ended. Don't like scoring? Play Strong. Don't like chaining? Just stockpile your Hyper for the tough moments. It's like the game says, "You're free to break the system, but will you REALLY be happy with yourself?"

[Elixir]

this one really irks me: Stuff like complaining that the game is too hard to score well in is just fucking laughable. The only reason people think that is because better players have already made the game their bitch. Think about it, if everybody who played this game sucked, then the high score would be lower, so when you play and get 32 and then see that the highest score is only 40 or something, you'd think you've scored well. But secretly everybody who plays is just terrible, and hopefully somebody good will show them their place soon enough. Thinking you're not scoring well or that scoring is too hard is purely you comparing yourself to better players. In this case, you suck compared to them, and for some reason you think it's the games fault. Ok.

Yeah, people are judging the game on whether they can score well in it and not, you know, whether they like the scoring system or mode or stages or whatever.

Can you go back to Touhou now?

[Despatche]

Daioujou felt more like an extension and improvement to Dodonpachi, Daifukkatsu feels like a completely different game.

It had better!

[Naut]

Yeah, people are judging the game on whether they can score well in it and not, you know, whether they like the scoring system or mode or stages or whatever.

I mentioned nothing about whether or not they like the scoring system. I don't give a shit if they like it or not, that has nothing to do with my point. Judging a game based on how well you score in it is absolutely absurd.

[Elixir]

I mentioned nothing about whether or not they like the scoring system.

Maybe you should have, it's what the thread is about.

Not this, "oh people are skilled already and therefore these people dislike it because they aren't" viewpoint that you have. If that were the case, everyone would hate every new shmup because they haven't had the opportunity to mash it in the arcades beforehand.

Your overall score has nothing to do with your impression of the game.

[Kaiser]

Naut you're a fool. What you don't realise and can't accept for the sake of not accepting, is that some shmuppers who put in a lot of time into DFK, aren't as satisfied with it as they wanted to be! Anyway I can't speak for DFK's quality I don't own it neither a J360, however even if I had the console, I would'nt get the DFK. First off, I hate the idea of ANY kind of lolis being as bosses (no offense towards girls). Second, the whole bullet cancelling idea already makes me cringe considering I prefer to dodge all the time even if the patterns are absurd. Third, Cave doesn't produce games as quality as they did before and it is a fact. In my opinion, Cave has peaked around DOJ and Ketsui.

EDIT: One more point, since I keep hearing the scoring is even more anal than in DOJ. Fuck that one then. DOJ was rough on chaining but nowhere rough as this.

[Bananamatic]

from what I've seen, DFK plays more like futari than DOJ with all these bullet cancels, slower bullets and a smaller hitbox

while the game itself looks damn cool to play, it's probably an absolute ass to play for score...like every single other DDP game

[kernow]

I came in from the DOJ school of hard knocks, having bloodied my knuckles on that game for months to irk out a measly 100,000,000 average score. I can't even imagine what the real number of times I've played 1-1 in that game to be.

So, given that trauma,

Wow, someone seems to be forgetting why they are playing games in the first place - enjoyment.

If a games not fun, fuck it, play something else.

Chaining will never be fun, its repetitive and boring, and borders on having to be autistic or OCD ridden to bother.

[Jockel]

It's not rocket surgery.

Hahaha awesome!

[Icarus]

Funny, I'm in the minority yet again when it comes to liking a game.

I absolutely adore Daifukkatsu v1.5, and have currently no interest in playing any of the Arrange modes at all (save Daifukketsui). I personally think that the scoring system is "inspired" (term used loosely) - the "bullet canceling to increase chain multiplier" is both open-ended and extremely challenging to manipulate, and greatly rewards clever tricks. It is very rewarding when you manage to pull off a huge chain in the early stages of the game, and even more so in st5. There is plenty of scope for experimentation, and even when holding a Hyper, there is enough on screen to assist you in maintaining your chain, unlike Dodonpachi for example which had lulls of several seconds or more between waves. There are lots of ways to chain-link in every stage - it is baffling when people say it is hard to chain in this game.

Autobomb isn't that annoying to me. I treat it as a "death without the penalty of a lost life" - something entirely avoidable, a penalty for my own incompetence, but an extra chance to keep going.

Triggering Ura midbosses, difficult? There are only four targets you need to hit, they are bigger than a house each, and they are virtually lined up for you to hit, so it can't be that difficult, right? :p

So yeah, I <3 v1.5. An even bigger bonus is getting to play it on the underground rail to work every morning.

[Skykid]

Naut you're a fool.

Stole the words right out of my mouth.

Although it's impossible to put an idiot filter on threads, I would suggest to anyone who came here for a discussion to ignore the comments from the folks that can't read properly and say what you want to say.
I'm more than happy to hear positive DFK experiences, but if you're just turning up to berate everyone who isn't clicking/warming to it, find somewhere else to play.

Back OT:

As you all know I'm a DOJ nut, and I can't chain properly in that game either. Never stops me trying though.
I don't think the chaining element of DFK is the sole reason I'm not getting along with the game, it's several elements compounded.

Black Label has promise, from what I understand from Adverse's comments on Cave-STG there's more of a Galuda style element to it where rather than erasing hordes of bullets you let them build up and cancel with a certain shot type. Also, autobomb can be switched off, but then you replace bombing with hypers, which is more interesting.
I'm sure there are some folks who have played BL who can elaborate, I'm not too sure of the finer details.

Funny, I'm in the minority yet again when it comes to liking a game.

I absolutely adore Daifukkatsu v1.5, and have currently no interest in playing any of the Arrange modes at all (save Daifukketsui). I personally think that the scoring system is "inspired" (term used loosely) - the "bullet canceling to increase chain multiplier" is both open-ended and extremely challenging to manipulate, and greatly rewards clever tricks. It is very rewarding when you manage to pull off a huge chain in the early stages of the game, and even more so in st5. There is plenty of scope for experimentation, and even when holding a Hyper, there is enough on screen to assist you in maintaining your chain, unlike Dodonpachi for example which had lulls of several seconds or more between waves. There are lots of ways to chain-link in every stage - it is baffling when people say it is hard to chain in this game.

Autobomb isn't that annoying to me. I treat it as a "death without the penalty of a lost life" - something entirely avoidable, a penalty for my own incompetence, but an extra chance to keep going.

Triggering Ura midbosses, difficult? There are only four targets you need to hit, they are bigger than a house each, and they are virtually lined up for you to hit, so it can't be that difficult, right? :p

So yeah, I <3 v1.5. An even bigger bonus is getting to play it on the underground rail to work every morning.

You sir are charged with showing me what I'm missing on this game next Saturday. I'll have it all set up for you and I'll have a notepad ready. If anyone can reveal the beauty of DFK, it's you and your mad scoring.

[Annoyboy]

I love DFK, in fact I find it to the best shmup on the 360. If your biggest beef is the autobombing, wouldn't Black Label fix that for you? I hear it gives you the option of turning autobombing off.

[captpain]

You sir are charged with showing me what I'm missing on this game next Saturday. I'll have it all set up for you and I'll have a notepad ready. If anyone can reveal the beauty of DFK, it's you and your mad scoring.

You're going to take notes on someone playing a video game you don't like

[dan76]

Yeah, count me underwhelmed - for many of the reasons already posted.

Auto bomb, bullet cancelling with hypers (DOJ had the balance right, with this it's too much), 2 loops - the first of which is a bore... until stage 5 which is awful. Loads of options, none of which hit the spot - arrange A comes closest. Cave games have great bullet patterns that are fun to dodge through but they seem intent of denying us this fun by hyper cancelling/reflecting shots - Akai Katana I'm looking at you. It sucks big eggs. I'd love to see a version of AK without the ninja modes etc... sorry OT.

From what I've read Black Label seems the way to go, but I'm not clear on that red bar and how it will effect Ketsui mode. I was hoping Ketsuipachi will basically be Ketsui with 10chips and BL graphics... but I don't think it will be as clear cut as that.

[ratsflif]

The bosses are terrible, some have good patterns but they have zero style. I would rather fight donpachi bosses.

[Frederik]

It's not rocket surgery.

Hahaha awesome!

Damnit, beaten

From what I've read Black Label seems the way to go, but I'm not clear on that red bar and how it will effect Ketsui mode. I was hoping Ketsuipachi will basically be Ketsui with 10chips and BL graphics... but I don't think it will be as clear cut as that.

This is slight off-topic, but Ketsupachi looks odd to me, at least judging from the trailer. Those gigantic 10 boxes that fill up the whole screen at times look weird, and the Tiger Schwert suddenly has an ugly green toothpaste laser instead of the original rapidfire one, which looks really out of place. I´m really enthralled with Ketsui right now and think they should rather make a proper sequel instead - Akai Katana proves CAVE still knows how to do grim artstyles.

Not saying it won´t work as an arrange mode - but it looks more like fanservice to me. But it shows they are aware of how important Ketsui is. No Panzer Jäger though!

[emphatic]

I was hoping Ketsuipachi will basically be Ketsui with 10chips and BL graphics... but I don't think it will be as clear cut as that.

Me too, but as long as there's nothing broken (like bombing boss lasers in DFK 1.51) I think having a bit of depth will be just fine. I wonder how the Ketsui ship will handle using the DFK game engine though.

[Skykid]

You sir are charged with showing me what I'm missing on this game next Saturday. I'll have it all set up for you and I'll have a notepad ready. If anyone can reveal the beauty of DFK, it's you and your mad scoring.

You're going to take notes on someone playing a video game you don't like

Yes. The passage of text you quoted is quite self-explanitory, I don't get why you even bothered to comment.

OT:

Akai Katana does have reflecting barriers n' stuff, but honestly it's actually good fun. I think they did a decent job with that game, but I'll need to give it more time (port please) before proper judgement. If it means anything, it feels closer to their classic stuff than DFK or Deathsmiles.

[monouchi]

DFK is THE cave game for me, everything is just awesome and will be even more awesome with BL.
Cant stop playing it...

[evil_ash_xero]

Yeah. I didn't even like it. Got rid of it a while back.

[neorichieb1971]

There are pros and cons.

At least you know the next cave game will match its prowess graphics.

Its a shame they went and threw handicaps into the game by default.

[njiska]

Alternatively:
"bawwwww I suck at it so it sucks"

Pretty much what I got from these posts.

Is it really?

That's the argument you've used against me every time I've said I don't like playing DOJ for score, is it really that surprising to see it turned back around at you?

Taste is everything. Obviously DFK isn't to the taste of a lot of the old guard, but that doesn't mean it's a bad game. Some people do hate it because it just doesn't play like DOJ and I suspect that regardless of what arguments you make, good points or not, you could never love DFK simply because it's not DOJ.

Me, I find it to be a bit boring and samey as well, but I still play it more than DOJ because I don't find the chain system as mind bogglingly frustrating. It's also nowhere near as depressing. Don't get me wrong I love DOJ's presentation, but it's way to bleak to play continuously. I'm aware I'm in the minority with this opinion, but it's still a valid one.

this is a good topic but it needs to go in the daifukkatsu thread

edit: baited

True

My response to any Skykid post these days that compares X to DOJ. Seriously, I'm tired of hearing how everything fails to live up to your one favourite game.

[brentsg]

I enjoyed DFK, but did find stage 5 to be tiresome. It's a game that I really had to be in the right mood to play, since it's somewhat lengthy.

Then DFK BL came along and ruined it for me. I still love 1.5, and the overall presentation.. but given the choice I'd play BL every time. It was a tough call selling my kit but I haven't missed it. With DFK 1.5, I'd play a credit and then go do something else. With BL I play a credit, and another, and another.. very compelling game.

BL, I could solder that into my cab. It's spent the better part of 2010 there anyways.