Newbie looking for a place to start

[Aquas]

I don't think Mushi Futari is the worst place to start, the original mode plays a lot like an old school shooter and you could learn a lot from it. But I also don't think you should waste your money on something you're not sure you'll like. Try the classics, rip up some stuff in MAME: the ones mentioned, and Flying Shark, cause you can never get enough Flying Shark. Also, the Gradius arcade games basically require you to setup autofire. So try to set that up in MAME. It's pretty easy.

Something else to consider in getting into shmups, not all games will be right for you. You will need to find one that you like enough to put in the time with it, and ultimately get good at. As a kid, U.N Squadron on the SNES captivated me. Much later on, I would watch people play Raiden Fighters Jet at an arcade I went to. I was only playing for survival for a while, but as I watched on I discovered there was a scoring system behind the game. That was an awesome asset to my enjoyment of the game from that point on, and I found out there was more to the genre as I played and played and got good enough to survive on one credit untill the latter stages.

My personal recommendations: Gradius 1 and 2 arcade, Gradius 3 SNES, Flying Shark, Star Force, Fantasy Zone, Twin Cobra, TwinBee, all these arcade.

[dannnnn]

I definitely would'nt recommend anything from cave to newbies outside Donpachi. And what's up with the Futari recommendations, or Dodonpachi, the guy's merely starting out and hasn't grasped a bit from the art of dodging yet.

So basically Dodonpachi is a bad place to start for a complete newbie, same with Futari, hell even anything cave is not a good place to start.

You should start playing Raiden, Gradius, R-type or Thunder Force games. Stick with classics until you're good at them. SO DON'T PLAY ANYTHING post-1995 for now. There's a good suggestion why I recommend classics over moderns to newbies, because they teach the basics of dodging and memorization. AND OF COURSE, a good reaction time.

That's bad advice IMO, it's like telling an FPS novice that he has to master Wolfenstein 3D before he's allowed to play CoD4. That's not to say the games which you listed are not good games in their own right, but I don't see how practicing more memorisation focused games such as Gradius and R-Type will help you to learn 'the art of dodging' any better than DoDonPachi.

DDP is a perfect introduction to modern shooters; it's fun, fast-paced, simple to play (for survival), it looks great and the difficulty doesn't ramp up too quickly. Again, I like Raiden, but it's a far more punishing game.

If it wasn't a bit pricey, I'd recommend Mushi Futari as the perfect shooter to start with, partly because it has so many different modes with varying degrees of difficulty. My non-shooter playing friends love that game, so that must mean something. For now though MAME is your best bet, just try anything and everything and see what you like.

[Ed Oscuro]

I say play everything, see what grabs you, then go back and take it easy when trying to learn.

Also, from the Cave front there's also Batsugun, which is technically a Toaplan (precursor to Cave) release but still has some Donpachi features.

Personally I would start playing Raiden Fighters (one of them, all three are decent) or Giga Wing, maybe even Sengeki Striker if you wanted an idea how to dodge bullets but aren't really good at it

There's no such thing as a learning shooter, just a learning player. You can take any shooting game seriously, even if it has a "training course" or you learn your ABCs with it, whatever.

[NzzpNzzp]

Also, the Gradius arcade games basically require you to setup autofire.

(Cyclone) laser saves the day!

I'd still go with Dodonpachi over Gradius, though. Less memorising, more explosions. Less dying on any stage after the third and being completely screwed too.

[Marspants]

Holy response hahaha, this is good though It's giving me information to work with. I've just set up MAME and I'm going to give Gradius and DoDonPachi a few good playthroughs as they seem to be mentioned a lot.

Should I start by using keyboard or go instantly for something more arcade-esque, like a joystick? I'm going to use keyboard but I was interested to see if anyone would recommend staying away from that initially

[austere]

I would actually go with both, initially. You're probably already used to using a keyboard so the games will be more familiar that way. It does takes a while to learn how to use a stick effectively but it's well worth it. Just make sure you use a decent keyboard and buy a good stick (e.g. Hori Real Arcade Pro EX-SE, or a custom made one if they strike your fancy).

[CptRansom]

I use my laptop keyboard and the controller part of the Rock Band Portable Drum Kit (360). Both of those give me better results than my EX-SE. If you ever plan on actually playing in an arcade or getting a cab or whatever, then start getting used to a stick. I sincerely doubt I'll ever play on a cab and there damn sure aren't any arcades with STGs 'round these parts, so my inputs work for me.

tl;dr - Try everything to get a good feel for what works best for you, then settle on the inputs you prefer.

[Special World]

I definitely would'nt recommend anything from cave to newbies outside Donpachi. And what's up with the Futari recommendations, or Dodonpachi, the guy's merely starting out and hasn't grasped a bit from the art of dodging yet.

So basically Dodonpachi is a bad place to start for a complete newbie, same with Futari, hell even anything cave is not a good place to start.

You should start playing Raiden, Gradius, R-type or Thunder Force games. Stick with classics until you're good at them. SO DON'T PLAY ANYTHING post-1995 for now. There's a good suggestion why I recommend classics over moderns to newbies, because they teach the basics of dodging and memorization. AND OF COURSE, a good reaction time.

My first shooter love was Mars Matrix. R-type games pissed me off because of certain levels where you had to memorize them or you'd run into walls. I'd also consider R-type, Gradius, and Raiden significantly harder than Futari Original. I don't think either of those games put any sort of emphasis on scoring either, which is a pretty big thing for a lot of shmup fans. I see where you're coming from, but I'm not certain it's true.

That being said, Gate of Thunder either way. And throw some Star Parodier and Blazing Lazers on that shit as well. I'd definitely consider any of those far more accessible and fun than Raiden and R-Type.

ED: I do agree that it's probably best to start with MAME and other emus, though. That's what initially got me to realize Cave was the bees knees, anyhow. Can't really go wrong with playing DDP for survival. If you have a dreamcast that's a good place to start too. Mars Matrix, Ikaruga, and Zero Gunner 2 are fantastic and not amazingly intimidating.

[Thjodbjorn]

I started with Mushi Futari, and have been having a blast. I played Dodonpachi on MAME right after. I probably would have been turned off by R-Type or Gradius, as I don't care as much for the horizontal games.

[NzzpNzzp]

Holy response hahaha, this is good though It's giving me information to work with. I've just set up MAME and I'm going to give Gradius and DoDonPachi a few good playthroughs as they seem to be mentioned a lot.

You might wanna start with Gradius II. The first game is kinda dodgy in a few ways.

[moozooh]

I concur: Gradius II is an improvement in every possible way, and as far as Gradius games go, it's probably the most forgiving game in the series (aside from the recent ports/remakes).

[Aliquantic]

Hi, and welcome My only advice would be not to listen too much to what we say here, and just try as many games as you possibly can so you can see what "clicks" for you (it was Progear and EspRaDe for me). Bonus points if you're lucky enough to have access to games made in the last few years! (There may be a few good options if you have access to a 360, and it shouldn't be too difficult to resell 360 games without much of a loss)

Should I start by using keyboard or go instantly for something more arcade-esque, like a joystick? I'm going to use keyboard but I was interested to see if anyone would recommend staying away from that initially

Unless you're planning to actually play in an arcade, I wouldn't worry too much about that, no... some people do have a strong preference towards either keyboards/pads or sticks, though, so it's still worth giving it a try if possible. Otherwise, your skill is what matters, assuming your controller actually works in the first place!

[CptRansom]

just try as many games as you possibly can so you can see what "clicks" for you...

I'm going to add to this that it might take you a while to figure out what really clicks for you, so if you've been trying a bunch of games for a few months and you're still unsure, don't feel bad. It took me about six months to really figure out that complex scoring systems just aren't for me; I have a very strong preference for item collection/item chaining games and games that require you to speedkill things over enemy chaining or "wtf" systems like Galuda 2. Doesn't mean I don't enjoy DDP, Ikaruga, etc... just that I don't care about scoring really past getting extends (like my recent frustration over DFK 1.5... I'm not really aiming for great scores, but I'd at least like to learn enough to get 10bil for both extends).

tl;dr again - Figure out what you like, stick to it, get good at it. Some very wise men gave me that advice about six months ago and I'm just now listening to it and I'm happier for it. =D

[doctorx0079]

How about, get a Dreamcast and then pre-order Fast Striker. If Original is too hard then try Novice. If you have an XBox 360 get Deathsmiles also. Then you have a vert (more or less) and a horzie. If you want a "true vert" you can get Gunbird 2 for Dreamcast. Or if you have a PS2 (and who doesn't) you can probably find Raiden III for peanuts. All these are good games and will put you near the forefront of current developments. Go to it and good luck.

[nimitz]

Ok, since I always point newbies to Dodonpachi and never explained myself and the fact that some people here seem to think it's a bad idea (how?).


why is Dodonpachi so great for newcomers?

1) Anyone who has access to internet and a computer can play the game, no need to buy some exotic hardware just to TRY it.

2) A great learning curve, a complete beginner will be able to survive the first stage or two and will be able to start making progress very quickly in an almost linear fashion.

3) Scoring is purely optional, you will get all the possible extends (20M) if you simply survive through the first loop, so a beginner doesn't have to feel obligated to score in any way. That being said anyone can start doing so if they enjoy it.

4) The style, might not be everyone's favorite game style wise, but we all must admit that it is very well executed, beautiful pixel art, huge explosions everywhere and the rockin' soundtrack.

5) More forgiving than old school shooters for survival, a newcomer won't get frustrating moments in Dodonpachi, the enemies always come from the front or the sides, there are no instantaneous death traps, checkpoints or any other sources of frustration that are often found in earlier games that could turn off someone unfamiliar with the genre.

6) Huge lasting appeal, someone who ends up liking this game a lot can spend years on it and will still have room for improvement.

7) Last but not least: It's a game we can all agree on, this way a newcomer asking what he should try will get most responses telling him to play Dodonpachi, instead of having a list of 30 shmups to try and see if he finally likes the genre.



I do think some other shmups are better than dodonpachi, but for reasons that really don't apply to beginners (like having a much harder first level or having a crazy rank system : P )

[doctorx0079]

Ok, since I always point newbies to Dodonpachi and never explained myself and the fact that some people here seem to think it's a bad idea (how?).

If they have a decent PC and can get MAME going then yes, DDP is good for beginners.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The style, might not be everyone's favorite game style wise, but we all must admit that it is very well executed, beautiful pixel art, huge explosions everywhere and the rockin' soundtrack.

I'd say the original DonPachi does all those things (i.e. presentation) better than DDP in every aspect. I'm fairly surprised anybody thinks much about DDP's soundtrack. The music and the announcer in DDP are quite forgettable in my book.

[drauch]

DO DO DO DO DO DO DO DO DO DON PACHI!

[moozooh]

I completely agree with nimitz on all counts. The reason I also tend to mention Batrider is that most of them apply to its Normal course as well (very forgiving, lots of mindless fun, beautiful art and nice music), but it also has something DDP doesn't: bullet count isn't so overwhelming (I will never forget the feeling I experienced when that tank at the beginning of 1-1 shot at me the first time), and it's easier to get to grips with the hitbox.

And rRootage is just a bit of easy and quick practice to get going with different bullet hell mechanics. You get a lot of different patterns, visible hitbox, no bells and whistles. It was one of my first shmups as well, and I'm happy about it.

[Obiwanshinobi]

As someone who doesn't quite get why oh why DDP is being pimped so fervently...
The reason why I didn't suggest DDP is that I didn't like it when I started serious hogging of the MAME shmups library.
What still rubs me the wrong way most is the small hitbox I suppose (although I didn't have that problem with Gradius V). This and the fact bullet hell games tend to exploit hardware's graphical prowess in such an uninspiring way... Just when the likes of In The Hunt, Geostorm and Metal Slug became possible, companies like Irem ceased to make arcade games making room for Cave who just kept multiplying dots. Of course Cave games are graphically more fleshed out in the background department than your average doujin shmup (I like aesthetics of certain Cave shmups rather a lot), but once you get to play them, dots cover almost everything. Ironically the last Cave game sporting genuinely outstanding explosions and fire, as far as I can tell, would be the first DonPachi. I liked the Ibara shrapnel circus too, but it's not in MAME and the PS2 port isn't of much use for me.
As for the gameplay of DDP, I tried chaining, tried sheer survival and neither experience really got me going. DOJ has better music (still forgettable announcer, though) and respectably fast shots (another issue I tend to have with bullet hell is the "underwater" gaming experience; now DOJ can't be accused of that) and yet it still resembles DDP too much for my liking. DP has got mesmerising presentation and two first levels I'd rather not have to play over and over again (even in the Hong Kong version). Oh well, at least the announcer in Dai-Fukkatsu is likeable again, but the gameplay looks like even less of my cup of tea.

[Ed Oscuro]

why is Dodonpachi so great for newcomers?

Not everybody likes that kind of shooter, the end.

If he likes it that's great, no sense giving people the impression it's representative of all shooters or that if you can't enjoy it you won't like shooters.

For that specific game, but also many other Cave shooters, the flip side to "room for improvement" is an almost pointlessly dictatorial scoring system.

[austere]

Not everybody likes that kind of shooter, the end.

What do you have to say about item 4?

the flip side to "room for improvement" is an almost pointlessly dictatorial scoring system.

Any scoring systems is dictatorial if you intend to maximise your score. If the newcomers want to chain here and there in DDP, they just need to lrn2play and it won't be very hard. Not all of them will want to chain three quarters of stage 2-5 from the very beginning.

Both of those give me better results than my EX-SE.

Sounds like you need more practice on it. ;P But yeah, learning how to use a stick really helps out when you go to an arcade. You just have to get used to the different kinds of switches/sticks they use. I heard that you can modify a JLF to be even better than an LS-32 but I never got around to trying that idea out. All I've got is a decent keyboard here in HK and I managed to loop DDP with it so I would say I'm as good on a stick as I am on a keyboard. Oh and I will soon write a review of all the good keyboards on the market so stay tuned, it's almost done!

[CptRansom]

Both of those give me better results than my EX-SE.

Sounds like you need more practice on it. ;P But yeah, learning how to use a stick really helps out when you go to an arcade.

Shit, I better learn how to use a stick on the 0.01% chance I'm ever in an arcade setting or around friends with cabs and need to show off my mad skills to all the American arcade-goers who appreciate STGs in north central Florida... Oh wait, that sounds like a really huge waste of time that could be better spent on improving my meager skills with specific games.

[austere]

Am I going to have to drag you all the way here so you can play at the arcades with me? =P You used to play Touhou games a lot right? I suppose that would explain your preference. I used to play Perfect Cherry Blossom which is why I'm alright at using the keyboard for STGs (well, that and the fact that I play Starcraft way too much).

[Lance Boyle]

Sticks look more fun and natural than fumbling on WASD with three fingers, so I'm getting one.

Also, keyboard keys aren't great for mashing, though it certainly can be done

[renardqueenston]

a vote for the Raiden Fighters Aces 360 collection here. my girlfriend is by no means big into shooters (she likes the games but can't seem to find which ones work for her), but she loved Fighters and Fighters Jet. i think they're really appealing, straight-up fun, and the collection is absolutely dirt cheap (and incredible).

[Aguilar]

I was in the same position you were a few months ago. Downloaded a few roms, then being a fan of the classic game room and Mark's love of the saturn I decided to bid on one on Ebay. After I got the Saturn I got Darius Gaiden and Galactic Attack(Layer Section/Gunlock). Played both of those and absolutely love both titles. Then got on XBLA and downloaded Triggerheart Exelica, Ordered Mushihime-sama futari. By now I get the just of the genre and really cant complain. Still sucking at all of them I might add. Here recently I picked up a NTSC-J Saturn with Donpachi and Battle Garegga to go with it and the combination of donpachi, garegga, and mushi futari Im actually spending quite a lot of time with these games. Before I'd play them for 30 - 40 minutes then do something else and then come back, but the past week or so im really memorizing donpachi and trying to improve my skills for hours a day. Just my 2 cents though.

My advice is get a Saturn, if you dont mind spending some money to get your feet wet that is.

[Lance Boyle]

The answer to this thread is now Ketsui: Back Label.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Even if every Cave shmup was fully working on Mame I would still say DDP is the best shmup to play for a noob. As its a kind of a proto bullet hell thats half way between a pre-danmaku manic and a full screen of bullets modern danmaku / bullet hell. And depending on how the player plays the game can be either noobish friendly or hellishly difficult.

Also itll allow the player to find out what he likes and dislikes in a shooter. Sure he / she could just try lots of different shooters, but tastes can differ when they stop casually playing them and start to seriously play them. As they can find that things they liked initially start to really grind during more serious play and vice versa.

[Pulsewidth]

I'll add another recommendation for DoDonPachi. Even my casual-gamer girlfriend likes DoDonPachi. She completely ignores the chaining system and bombs the bosses/midbosses, and often uses continues, but she seems to enjoy it. If you're just playing for survival it's a reasonably easy game.

I also recommend starting with a real arcade stick (I use a Seimitsu LS-32-1), because it takes a long time to get used to using one if you normally use keyboard, and at some point you're probably going to want to play in arcades. But I don't think there's much difference in control precision between a good stick and keyboard, so if you can't afford a stick then don't worry about using keyboard.