Lack of PS3 Shmups

[originalz]

As long as we accept the rules that Sony dictates, yes!
Some of which are: native fullscreen 16:9 (no border artwork crap), 720p and do not bother us to license your 2d crap for a disc release...

So, in other words, games have to be forced-stretched for fullscreen (or completely remade to take advantage of the aspect ratio), and disc releases for 2D shooters are a no-go?

Can't possibly imagine why any dev would pass up on that! You mention that the PS3 would be a good way to attract casual fans...that'll be the only people you attract since all of the hardcore players would be annoyed by a messed-up aspect ratio, and why would devs want to be stuck with cheap download releases when the fans will gladly pay full price for disc releases?

At this point, if you're a shooter fan, you've got a J360. It's not like it happened overnight, the writing has been on the wall for some time now. Why bother trying to segment your market?

[neorichieb1971]

Cave make 90% vertical shmups and that just doesn't work for PSN either. About 50% of the available screen is blank which is ridiculous.

If Death smiles could be taken advantage of so the available viewing area was enlarged (as opposed to stretched) that would go some way to advancing the process. The problem then is, making the sprites using more pixels. I am sure that would be rather time consuming.

If I won the lottery tomorrow I would have a PS3 specific engine written for hori shmups for anything Saturn/PS1/DC that could take advantage of polygons at 720/1080 using all the processors. I would then make sure 4 or 5 Konami shmups got the go ahead since I am friends with Mr Cox I am sure he would get the go ahead. Now where was my lottery ticket?

[Reverie Planetarian]

There's the ones by Platine Despositif, although I feel like the only one that is worth real merit is Hitogata Happa. Out of a bundle with three shmups in it.

...one out of three ain't a passing grade, folks!

[THE]

So, in other words, games have to be forced-stretched for fullscreen (or completely remade to take advantage of the aspect ratio), and disc releases for 2D shooters are a no-go?

Well PSN releases are possible without stretching. My guess is that you are only get away with 4:3 on pixel based games. If you use polygons there is no technical reason to not stretch it to 16:9 (aesthetics aside) or if the dev is motivated they redesign it in 16:9 that's no big deal for polygon games.

Can't possibly imagine why any dev would pass up on that! You mention that the PS3 would be a good way to attract casual fans...that'll be the only people you attract since all of the hardcore players would be annoyed by a messed-up aspect ratio, and why would devs want to be stuck with cheap download releases when the fans will gladly pay full price for disc releases?

At this point, if you're a shooter fan, you've got a J360. It's not like it happened overnight, the writing has been on the wall for some time now. Why bother trying to segment your market?

That sums it up.

From a business perspective it would be stupid from Cave to publish their games on PS3 now.
The market is already fulfilled with x360. With a PS3 release after a x360 release they probably wouldn't hit the minimum sales numbers for a break even. For a PS3 disc release huge production numbers are a requirement after all.

[THE]

Oh and yes, tate verts are practically dead.

If Death smiles could be taken advantage of so the available viewing area was enlarged (as opposed to stretched) that would go some way to advancing the process. The problem then is, making the sprites using more pixels. I am sure that would be rather time consuming.

Cave does not use hand drawn graphics anymore, they use raytracing/photoshop techniques. Recreating those sprites in 16:9 is possible and can be done mostly automatic. Their x360 ports are featuring in HD re rendered sprites after all, it's the same technique just in 4:3.

It's possible, but its a different game then and the PS3 market is not worth it for Cave anyway.

[neorichieb1971]

But all this talk of Cave, Cave isn't the only player.

Last night I played Joe Dangerous (admittedly not a shmup) but it doesn't play much different from Sonic the Hedgehog. If that can be done on the PS3 using polygons, with characteristic polygonal characters/sharks and so forth, why can't a shmup?

I see lots of games that have engines that could be delivering shmups. Yet I don't see shmups.

The other thing people keep talking about is the fan base and the numbers likely to be sold. When Ikaruga came out it had quite a lot of exposure. If a 1080/720 shmup came out that wasn't just a shmup, but a ground breaking one technically, I think it would get the exposure. Like I said most of the shmups that have come out on HD consoles have been upscaled/uprezzed, butchered affairs. But if the games were made from the ground up I don't see why they wouldn't sell. As long as the game is doing something that only the PS3 or Xbox can do, then I think it would sell. There are millions of people who want to see shmups, but they want shmups that are technically brilliant to look at.

I downloaded Mega Man 10 a few weeks ago. I turned it off at the title screen. A waste of money that was . Outrun 2 as well. Simply alarming 480p uprezzed graphics its a pile of shite.

[ShmupSamurai]

As a classic 8-bit megaman fan, I going to pretend that last sentence passed in one ear and out the other..

Anyway, if you handed me a PS3 dev kit and told me to make a shmup, I'd make something like RSG on crack with cell-shading and three bosses attacking you in the middle of the FIRST STAGE, all at ONCE, spewing ass-load upon ass-load of bullets.

[neorichieb1971]

Sorry, but I agree with Sony to some extent on their argument. Pushing 240 graphics in upscaled mode is just bollocks. Do it right or not at all.

I like your RSG thoughts though. I don't like the fact you chose a vertizontal game for 16:9 though. Gradius 5 would be more my cuppa.

I didn't buy a £900 TV to see soft upscaled images. Some of you don't mind but I do. I think the problem is Sony have positioned themselves in such a state that they want heavily invested properties on PSN but they don't want to help out with it. If nobody breaks the ice the console war might as well end here. I don't see the point in PS4 or XB720 if the acceptance is tighter than it already is, or the budgets make the console only appeal to "wave your arms around like a twat" games and what we see an abundance of in the shops today.

[ShmupSamurai]

I think your own sig says it best...

[cj iwakura]

It's not much, but the PSN has been throwing shmup fans a few bones.

The Gundemonium trilogy(decent to fun), GaiaSeed(?), ChoAniki(!), etc.

Yes, the imports are on the PSN in the US. Lots of potential if utilized properly.

[burgerkingdiamond]

I'm annoyed that I am forced to support the 360 just because I want to play shmups, since I am more of a SONY fan. But so be it if CAVE doesn't want to release games for PS3. What really gets to me is that they seem to go out of the way to keep their games out of my hands. I know that they have had a few region free releases (mushi, espII, DS), and that is awesome. But why did they release DS region free and now they're gonna do MUshi Mushi Pork/Ibara and DDP DFKTSU region locked (am I wrong about this? I think this is the case). Even if they don't want to spend the money to have the game actually distributed in the US (we could at least import the games), what purpose does it serve to have it region locked? This practice makes me practically hate CAVE, although I love them...

Also, as a side note to neorichieb1971 why on Earth would you buy Mega Man 10, and then turn it off at the title screen? Did you not realize that it was supposed to be a sequel to the original NES series and that it is supposed to appeal to fans of that series? If so that is YOUR FAULT for not knowing what you were buying! I really enjoyed Mega Man IX (haven't downloaded X yet, but they are the same). I admit that I am partial to NES games in particular, so it really appealed to me. If these games don't appeal to you, then why the hell would you buy it?!?

And, forcing dev's to put games in full 16:9 is retarded. No wonder none come out for PS3. SONY is stubborn/stupid, but I still like my PS3. Hitogota Happa has almost made up for it though (I didn't like the side scrollers.) I cracked out on that game for about 4 days straight battiling Elixir for the #1 spot, until he just blew me out of the water. I didn't know who I was going up against.. haha

But wait, why should a PS3 owner complain we got Cho Aniki!!!

[neorichieb1971]

gameplay for megaman 10 was probably ok, although I did find it hard just to walk without being attacked by some crazy jumping thing. (I didn't turn it off at the title screen). But what really pissed me off was the bland graphics. I did not realize the graphics were going to be that bad.

[Kiken]

I'm annoyed that I am forced to support the 360 just because I want to play shmups, since I am more of a SONY fan. But so be it if CAVE doesn't want to release games for PS3. What really gets to me is that they seem to go out of the way to keep their games out of my hands. I know that they have had a few region free releases (mushi, espII, DS), and that is awesome. But why did they release DS region free and now they're gonna do MUshi Mushi Pork/Ibara and DDP DFKTSU region locked (am I wrong about this? I think this is the case). Even if they don't want to spend the money to have the game actually distributed in the US (we could at least import the games), what purpose does it serve to have it region locked? This practice makes me practically hate CAVE, although I love them...

DeathSmiles was never region free. The only region free releases were Mushi Futari (both the regular edition and the limited edition... no word yet on the Platinum edition) and ESPGaluda II BL (regular edition only). Cave stated ages ago that making Futari and ESP2 region free was to gage interested in distributing their games outside Japan.

[neorichieb1971]

and I read here they sold worse than the locked titles correct?

I would imagine they shot themselves in the foot, since 60%+ of people would have bought a JP 360 by then anyway.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Excuse me, you are right, DS wasn't region free. It got a regular US release. Me and my room mate both bought copies on day 1. We each have to do our part!

I don't understand why not just make all games region free, and westerners can choose to import the games if they wish. What purpose does it serve to segment your potential customers? I know these games are obviously MUCH more popular in Japan, but would they still be considered a niche genre? I don't know the answer. But I'm sure CAVE would like to sell more copies if it could. So why shut out us out? Does MS give them a cut of they jap 360's they sell?
Does MS charge fees to release games that aren't region locked? These kinds of practices encourage ppl to pirate games. I would like to get a jtag'd 360 and just download the games to spite CAVE.

[cools]

The other thing people keep talking about is the fan base and the numbers likely to be sold. When Ikaruga came out it had quite a lot of exposure. If a 1080/720 shmup came out that wasn't just a shmup, but a ground breaking one technically, I think it would get the exposure. Like I said most of the shmups that have come out on HD consoles have been upscaled/uprezzed, butchered affairs. But if the games were made from the ground up I don't see why they wouldn't sell. As long as the game is doing something that only the PS3 or Xbox can do, then I think it would sell. There are millions of people who want to see shmups, but they want shmups that are technically brilliant to look at.

You're way off on your numbers.

How many copies of Gradius V were sold? Not over a million, certainly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ideo_games

The PS2 sold over 140m units worldwide. Its best selling game was GTA:SA with over 17m units. At around the 1m mark are all the yearly sports titles and film licenses.

I can't find figures for Ikaruga, but I'd be willing to bet that total sales didn't make seven figures across all systems. Maybe it barely made six figures.

There is no market for high budget shmups. There never has been a market for low budget ones either: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_be ... ideo_games

You're asking a developer to make a high budget game on a system where development costs are already high, in a genre that is virtually guaranteed not to sell in quantities sufficient to recoup costs, let alone make a profit.

The only reason we're seeing Cave ports on the 360 is because the games themselves have already seen the development cost for the arcade. There's a (small, known, niche) market for ports which are relatively cheap to develop. The cost is minimal and there's a guaranteed profit from US, the fans.

The only way you'll see what you want is by people buying the games in enough quantity for a developer to sit up and say "hey, there's money to be made in this here genre". We can bitch about region locking and console exclusives till the cows come home but unless sales are happening no-one will see where this massive, profitable market is!

[emphatic]

forcing dev's to put games in full 16:9 is retarded.

[THE]

forcing dev's to put games in full 16:9 is retarded.

Actually it makes perfect sense

4:3 and 3:4 are both dead...

[burgerkingdiamond]

It doesn't make sense for this genre. No body wants to play a vertical shmup stretched out on a 16:9 screen.

[neorichieb1971]

If its native 16:9 thats ok with me. 4:3 stretched to 16:9 isn't.

[burgerkingdiamond]

Even if it was native 16:9, not stretched it still wouldn't work because the gameplay would be weird to have all that lateral movement. So the vertical shmup genre will not exist on a 16:9 resolution. However, Gradius VI would be AWESOME! I love Gradius V.

[neorichieb1971]

I see your point, my mistake I misunderstood your meaning. Yes, having 1/3rd height to 3 parts lateral would be weird.


I still don't understand why something like Joe Dangerous can be made by 3 people and a shmup can't.

[Kiken]

I don't understand why not just make all games region free, and westerners can choose to import the games if they wish. What purpose does it serve to segment your potential customers? I know these games are obviously MUCH more popular in Japan, but would they still be considered a niche genre? I don't know the answer. But I'm sure CAVE would like to sell more copies if it could. So why shut out us out? Does MS give them a cut of they jap 360's they sell? Does MS charge fees to release games that aren't region locked?

Because there's far less revenue to be made from a handful of importers when compared to a regional distribution licensing fee.

And as neorichieb1971 stated, Cave sold fewer copies of their region-free titles than they did their region-locked ones.

[StarCreator]

Because there's far less revenue to be made from a handful of importers when compared to a regional distribution licensing fee.

And as neorichieb1971 stated, Cave sold fewer copies of their region-free titles than they did their region-locked ones.

I don't think a correlation between the games being region free and lower sales makes sense; a more rational explanation would simply be the games they chose to release region free are less popular than the games they released region locked. I don't think anyone honestly believes Deathsmiles IIX would have sold fewer copies if they chose to release it region free.

IMO, the best explanation why they games are region locked by default is, it's been stated that in order to enable a region on a 360 game, you have to pass certification in that region. So for Mushihimesama Futari and Espgaluda II, they had to certify the game in all three regions in order to release them region free, which cost them extra time, if not money. Plus, with Deathsmiles released in NA by Aksys Games and word of there being an upcoming European release, they surely don't want to undercut the sales of their licensees should they seek to release more of their catalog.

[THE]

I still don't understand why something like Joe Dangerous can be made by 3 people and a shmup can't.

Your way of thinking is strange. Of course a shmup like Joe Dangerous can be done with 3 people. There is just no reason to do it. Why create a shmup, if you can create with the same effort something that's sells better. Joe Dangerous sold probably ten times the units than a shmup would have done.

Such a game already exists btw, it's called Otomedius. From the weird stuff you posted in this forums, I would consider that you would like it

And as neorichieb1971 stated, Cave sold fewer copies of their region-free titles than they did their region-locked ones.

The correct statement is, they sold more Death Smiles1/2 games than non Death Smiles games.

[E. Randy Dupre]

richie: Joe Dangerous has about ten items of on-screen furniture in its entire engine and builds every single one of its levels out of different combinations of those. You're honestly saying you don't understand the difference? JD is a physics-based take on Excitebike. It has absolutely nothing in common with shmups.

And as far as native 16:9 verts go, you've clearly not played 1942: Joint Strike.

Meanwhile: Oh god, not the region locking discussion again.

[neorichieb1971]

So the argument then is to make shmups more fashionable again then isn't it? Then start building up from there. I don't think Cave's shmups are popular with the mainstream simply because its too much of a jump. Its like asking someone who plays nothing but COD and then putting Bayonetta in front of them.

Perhaps THE can get some lads together for a PS3/360 format shmup and start a home grown movement. I'd put my £10-£50 in. If everyone put in some cash and the idea was a reality we could use this forum to make such a movement. Instead of asking WHY WHY WHY? Lets do it our damn selves.

[burgerkingdiamond]

I played joint strike and I thought it sucked.

[THE]

Perhaps THE can get some lads together for a PS3/360 format shmup and start a home grown movement. I'd put my £10-£50 in.

Haha, make it £500,000 and we develop you Gradius 6. This price also includes compensation that is necessary, as we don't like Gradius much.

[emphatic]

Haha, make it £500,000 and we develop you Gradius 6. This price also includes compensation that is necessary, as we don't like Gradius much.