[X360] Score Rush, 4 player shmup (Xona Games) NOW RELEASED

[Observer]

I really don't mind waiting for a Steam pack, like the OVERPOWERED XONA PACK FULL OF ENERGY WITH OST POWER LETTING OFF STEAM!, or something like that (complete with broken english), especially because XBLIG is not available in my region... Well, XBLA either. Microsoft hates us or something (heck, we even have a different activation for Windows 7 it's ridiculous) so I feel little sympathy for them.

Plus Steam has an offline mode and, well, I think other services also let you play offline.

[Jason]

What region are you in? I should mention this to Microsoft... They are asking us what we want to see in the next generation of Xbox LIVE Indie Games. Of course, Leaderboards and Achievements tops the request lists. But a larger audience would be great. I am guessing that with real arcades still popular in Mexico that we would do well there, as we do in Japan.

[Ghegs]

Might as well mention here that I'd love to try your XBLIG titles out (and Break Limit and Explosionade and...) but the service isn't available in Finland either, though apparently it's possible for Finnish developers to submit their games to XBLIG. So if you could point to Microsoft that we, and many other countries who don't have access to it, do have money we'd like to spend on these things, that'd be great.

Heh, and it seems some Microsoft big shots are even "looking into it".

[Observer]

What region are you in? I should mention this to Microsoft... They are asking us what we want to see in the next generation of Xbox LIVE Indie Games. Of course, Leaderboards and Achievements tops the request lists. But a larger audience would be great. I am guessing that with real arcades still popular in Mexico that we would do well there, as we do in Japan.

Oh man, you opened the gates of hell...

Agreed on the leaderboards and achievements. Those tend to keep people's interest high and Duality ZF should really have 'em.

I'm in South America. Xbox Live is available in Brazil, Colombia and Chile if I'm not wrong. I'm in Argentina. Microsoft did NOT release the 360, nor the original Xbox, down here. Freaking racist I tell you We are all stuck with imported US models and no warranties or official support for them so if it breaks, you have to risk yourself on unofficial repairers that half the time can and will flash the console or just do modifications that can potentially ruin its capability of going online.

At least Sony had the decency of launching the baby-heads campaign for their PS3/Move/PSP/PS2 stuff here. I couldn't believe we even have access to PSN and all. Microsoft attitude really is baffling at times...

So yeah, tell them to stop being a bunch of nazis.

As I said, I really don't mind the waiting, especially if we can get a super-polished mega-pack release or something. Plus you guys are just doing such a massive work... Good things take their time <<<<

[Jason]

Ok, I've forwarded the request for Indie Games to be available in more countries, directly to the guy who started the Indie Games service, Dave Mitchell. I have no real method, other than with Microsoft Connect, to contact Microsoft for other issues, like distribution of Xbox 360's in general to countries it's not available (I had no idea of that until just now). I certainly have no weight on my word for that issue. Xbox LIVE makes Microsoft $1 billion a year, so I am sure they are very aware of what they want to do and to how many people they want to make this available to.

Note that a Microsoft Connect account is TOTALLY FREE and anyone who wished to voice a concern should get a group of people behind them with a forum discussion, then create a Connect ticket (for free), and then get the group of people to vote on it (to "+1" it).

A Connect ticket shows a description of the problem, its affects, and you can even comment on it, and suggest workarounds. Be nice. Don't demand. Standard practices of communication apply here. It's not a place to bitch and yell at Microsoft. It's a service they offer that allows anyone, for free, to voice concerns to them, in a way that links directly into their bug database, and is GUARANTEED to be read by the folks at Microsoft. Just keep in mind that it's human on the other end of that communication line, and all they do is hear things that are wrong with the system. So handle this properly.

Microsoft Connect: connect.microsoft.com

[Jason]

Example Connect issues for XNA Game Studio (i.e. the toolset for Xbox LIVE Indie Games):
https://connect.microsoft.com/site226/Feedback
Check some of them out, and see how we've reported feedback.

You can report feedback for just about ANY product.

[Kaspal]

There is nothing concrete, but our goal is to release all the shmups on the PC under steam, perhaps in a packaged deal. This will not happen before Duality ZF is on XBLA and Steam, but likely soon afterwards. I cannot confirm this, but this is what we want.

i hear ya. i hope you doit on a bundle, cuz getting each one separately is a passion killer... if you know what i mean.

any words on when are you releasing dualityZF? its been almost 2 years since you announced its initial release...

[Kaspal]

I really don't mind waiting for a Steam pack, like the OVERPOWERED XONA PACK FULL OF ENERGY WITH OST POWER LETTING OFF STEAM!, or something like that (complete with broken english), especially because XBLIG is not available in my region... Well, XBLA either. Microsoft hates us or something (heck, we even have a different activation for Windows 7 it's ridiculous) so I feel little sympathy for them.

Plus Steam has an offline mode and, well, I think other services also let you play offline.

are you serious!? i mean, REALLY?... down here in colombia, we bitch about MicroShit treating us badly, but having a different activation scheme its just ridiculous man!... i never thought you in Argentina were that badly treated (even tho, the MS help desk for LA is down there!).

and yes, thats why i was asking for a steam release or something, cuz i've bought stuff off of it, and played them while away ... even on another machine (with a steam backup)... it really angered me when i found out (the hard way) that XBLIG need to be online just to fire up the god damned game... i lost like 50bux on such games, cuz when i got banned, i just coulndt play them anymore.... and there were some i REALLY loved.

[Weak Boson]

A few thoughts on the game:

• If the shot automatically fired and you only had to move the right stick to change its direction it would be easier on the thumbs.
  While bullet visibility is fine enemies can become obscured when there's lots going on.
  I don't really understand the scoring system - the stuff about the speed bonuses in game is a bit vague.
  I'm not a big fan of the visual style - luminous boxes aren't the most interesting enemies and some of the effects are a bit over the top. This isn't really a big issue as the game does look pretty slick all things considered.
  Moving the ship through bullet patterns with the 360 analogue stick isn't ideal. I don't really like how the controls feel in this regard.

All in all though it's really enjoyable. I managed to get 90-something million on my last run (gamertag Cosine Cosine) which took me almost to the end of the game. I'm really looking forward to trying to complete it tomorow. It gets it right where it matters - I think people will be able to play it and get a taste of what makes shmups fun to play.

[brokenhalo]

wow this game is amazing. best dollar i've ever spent in xblig. great job guys!

i guess the only question i have is is there any online leaderboard functionality?

[Jason]

any words on when are you releasing dualityZF? its been almost 2 years since you announced its initial release...

Duality ZF was originally a $5 4-month project. Then $1 games were allowed so it turned into a $1 project. Then the prospect of XBLA opened up, so it became a $10 project. This is why things have changed and been delayed for so long. Thankfully we smartened up and decided to release some of our work as Score Rush, which uses Duality engine technology. We should've done this a year ago or more. The release for Duality ZF depends on the greenlight from Microsoft and their date. It would likely be mid-2011, maybe earlier, maybe later. We don't decide this, so I can't tell you exactly.

[Jason]

Weak Boson,

I understand the continually holding of the thumbstick can cause stress. However, releasing the thumbstick changes the direction as you release it. I've tried these control ideas with Duality ZF's more exotic modes. And it doesn't work. You can't "set" an aiming direction and let go without it being modified during release.

Enemies can be obscured. Fortunately the bullets are the primary threat. But even I've run into enemies. I has hoped that the enemy-hit flash would provide information to know where the enemies are even during chaos, but sometimes it's not enough, I agree. Maybe the flash should be red and not blue.

Score system: Kill an enemy X times as fast, and you get X times as many points. There's a base score to each enemy based on its strength and the danger it presents. Tougher baddies are worth more. Kill them faster for more score. That's all you really need to know. There is NO multiplier that goes up and down when you kill enemies. The multiplier is PER ENEMY. No chains. No tweaks of the score system. All that matters is how dominate you are in kicking ass. That's it. It's as pure as we can make it.

How is moving the ship through bullet patterns with the 360 analogue stick not ideal (did you mean the digital D-pad)? We don't have another control method that would allow precision like this. Any suggestions are appreciated and welcome. I even 'massage' the thumbsticks to make precision motions even more easy to perform. I'm not sure what else I can do.

You can add me as a friend, my gamertag is HugeJuge.

Thanks for the compliments!

[Jason]

wow this game is amazing. best dollar i've ever spent in xblig. great job guys!

i guess the only question i have is is there any online leaderboard functionality?

Wow thank you. There are no online P2P scoreboards. Real Leaderboards are not allowed in Indie Games, we're not even allowed to use the word for our own P2P score sharing hacks.

[Xonatron]

Score Rush is climbing the ranks in Japan, check it out:
http://marketplace.xbox.com/ja-JP/Games ... y=TopRated

#1 Decimation X3
#2 Protect Me Knight <------ Yuzo Koshiro's (bonus points to whoever remembers him first) company
#3 Epic Dungeon <--------- another Indie Game Winter Uprise Game, which kicks ass
#4 Decimation X
#5 Score Rush

The other 3 are us!

I recommend those other two games for retro gaming fans.

[xris]

I gave the demo a couple of tries today, rather impressed with how this came out. It's a beautiful mix of Geomwars and bullet hell. I would say the controls work just fine, I've played way too much Geomwars, so this is just as butter smooth. I was able to score around 12 million in the time limit pretty consistently, so it seems pretty well balanced for scoring. The enemy spawns are a set pattern, which is a good thing, keeps the field level. I am also impressed by the bullet patterns, it seemed like a good mix of aimed and splatter. Allot of the reflexive play from Geomwars kicked in, not really a good ideal, but I'm sure I can find a decent style to play with once I get the game, just need to re-up my space points over the weekend. Once I get a little more familiar with it, and I'm sure it's pretty well balanced I'll be willing to run a score thread here, might as well give that a try at some point. I'm okay with the glowy particle splashy hard to see through the chaos, I love that stuff!
Great job on the game! I'm happy to see that it came out rather well. You should be proud of your hard work. You've done well in fighting an uphill battle with the bureaucracy that you have been trapped with. And, you are very kind to try and promote the service, and many other hard working developers in the XNA circle. There's so many people that can learn from your positive example. I hope it pays off for you guys!

[Xonatron]

xris, thank you so much for that beautiful post. This appreciation is what makes it all worth it.

[-Bridget-]

A few thoughts on the game:

• If the shot automatically fired and you only had to move the right stick to change its direction it would be easier on the thumbs.
  While bullet visibility is fine enemies can become obscured when there's lots going on.
  I don't really understand the scoring system - the stuff about the speed bonuses in game is a bit vague.
  I'm not a big fan of the visual style - luminous boxes aren't the most interesting enemies and some of the effects are a bit over the top. This isn't really a big issue as the game does look pretty slick all things considered.
  Moving the ship through bullet patterns with the 360 analogue stick isn't ideal. I don't really like how the controls feel in this regard.

All in all though it's really enjoyable. I managed to get 90-something million on my last run (gamertag Cosine Cosine) which took me almost to the end of the game. I'm really looking forward to trying to complete it tomorow. It gets it right where it matters - I think people will be able to play it and get a taste of what makes shmups fun to play.

I have to rather disagree with alot of this myself... though I think it's gonna differ from one player to the next.

I have no issues with the visibility... I can see the enemies just fine.... and I think the analog actually works pretty well for something like this. It IS very precise movement, just takes some getting used to if you've not used it for this sort of game before.

While I do like wonky, complicated scoring systems like those found in some of Cave's titles, at the same time, it's nice to see one that's very simple. The game seems to reward the player for point-blanking enemies and bosses to kill them faster, which I always think is a brilliant concept, particularly since I have the habit of always trying to do that ANYWAY. I love being able to get right up next to a boss or something while still managing to dodge the waves of crap it throws.

And finally, I like the concept of a twin-stick shmup that is also a bullet-hell type. While a game like Geometry Wars is great and all, there are WAY too many that try to be like it; enemies in those tend not to actually shoot at you, but instead try to crash into you. That's fine and all, but I like my danmaku shmups, so it's really great to see a dual-stick type do that. I think that's what drew me to the game in the first place.


Overall, I think this is brilliant. I just wish this had some sort of online leaderboard or something. I also wish that there was also a PC version, for those that dont have an Xbox or just dont want one. I know a couple of shmup fans that would enjoy this, but do not have one and thus cannot play it, which is a shame.

Great game regardless though. I'll be coming back to this one alot.

[Jason]

The game seems to reward the player for point-blanking enemies and bosses to kill them faster, which I always think is a brilliant concept, particularly since I have the habit of always trying to do that ANYWAY. I love being able to get right up next to a boss or something while still managing to dodge the waves of crap it throws.

This is precisely why the scoring system is the way it is. We reward you points for doing the thing you want to do anyway: get in close and kick ass. The rapid fire of the weapon, as well as the spread nature, is what gives you more firepower when you're close (the faster bullets disappear off of the screen, the sooner they are re-fired, just like old school shmups that had limited on-screen bullets, and of course, the closer you are, the more of that spread will hit the target). I've been wanting to reward players for skills at kicking-ass, the thing you natively desire to do, for a long time, rather than some chain score system that is based on memorizing. While memorizing helps to concentrate on an enemy as soon as it appears, you need not memorize every small enemy, as what helps your score the most is kicking ass at the bigger enemies, the ones that give more points. In the end, when you dominate more, you get more points.

Thank you all for your compliments. Your words are amazing. And your appreciation for the finer details makes this well worth the effort.

[Weak Boson]

My issue with the controls is mostly just a case of 'this not an arcade stick' and I do appreciate that because it's a dual stick shooter there's not really any alternative. I think it's just not a set up that's good for small precise movements - the trouble I've been having, and maybe this is just me, is that moving through tight bullet patterns is a strain because you have to very careful not to push the stick down too far, but also to keep it as close to the engage distance as possible. I don't want to overstate the issue, though - it might be a bit awkward because I'm not used to it but I haven't died yet because of it and the game is just a jolly lot of fun. I hope you understand what I mean, though.

I like the sound of the scoring system. I got the vague sense that killing enemies at close range was good but it's nice to know more about what's going on behind the scenes. I always like to go in for the kill (when I'm not cowering at the bottom* of the screen) and I look forward to pushing my abilities to the limit. It's really nice to see games like this on XBLIG.

*or maybe side would be more appropriate here - I would complain about having a 16:9 horizontal display for a vertical shmup but I can see the logic in it for a 4 player game.

[Xonatron]

The game seems to reward the player for point-blanking enemies and bosses to kill them faster, which I always think is a brilliant concept, particularly since I have the habit of always trying to do that ANYWAY.

Just want to second this. It rewards pure domination, as we put it. And we believe no other shmup game exisiting does this (accurately). It's Duality ZF's scoring mechanic.

[Xonatron]

Weak Boson, one way to help navigate in small steps is to pull back away from the enemy or boss shooting, but make sure to make your move before getting crushed to the edge of the screen.

I understand the difficulty in this, and probably don't appreciate your position as much as you do as I am not familiar with an arcade stick. But this is an Xbox 360 game general-player game, not a shmup hardcore fan only game, and this style is the best for the game. We are, somewhat, popularizing shmups to the general gaming audience by making these decisions (including 16:9, etc.).

[Xonatron]

My 260 million point run, beating the game in normal difficuly (unlocking hard):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ji7y0va9fI&hd=1 (part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKes_YObYc0&hd=1 (part 2)

I've alread beat it in hard, but I amy do it again and record it too, to have a recording of each difficulty mode that I can beat recorded.

[sjewkestheloon]

Damn fine game here. Played about 5 credits on it last night and was laughing the whole time. Silky smooth frame rate, a shit ton of bullets, nice patterns crossing over with aimed shots, plenty of potential to use the full screen.

Overall one of the most fun pick up and play experiences I've had in a while.

I have very few complaints beyond the lack of leaderboards but that's a problem with the platform rather than the game.

Hell I expect to be playing this daily for some time. Good work!

[Xonatron]

sjewkestheloon, I'd like to start up a competition on these boards for high scores. Would you be in? Do i just start a thread in the Hi Scores (http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=2) section?

[Jason]

I think it's just not a set up that's good for small precise movements

I have often moved too far and run into a bullet, and wished I could do precise motions better. Perhaps I could handle this better?

I already do thumbstick massaging, which is basically taking the input, ignoring the dead zone, and then taking the remainder 0..1 distance input, and curving it such that you need to push further than halfway to get to 0.5, this allows a wide range of motion for smaller movement, but little range of motion for the speeds near 100%. I do this with a X^2 curve, and an exponent of 2 to 3 is recommended. I could try 3 to massage it even more, but you have to realize there is a limit of what this can do. The more easily you make smaller motions, the more of a chance that tapping the controller a little too far immediately jumps into the high range of motion, and suddenly you aren't going from 20% speed to 30%, you're into the steep part of the curve, and you're going 90%. Whatever you take on one end is lost on the other, but generally, there's no need to ever move 90% speed, so this is more than ok to lose.

In any case, your feedback is welcome. I suspect most seasoned gamers are already ok with the control scheme having played Call of Duty forever and are able to aim precisely with the thumbsticks. But for people like me, and perhaps you, who don't play such games very often (at least not on consoles with a thumbstick), we may not be used to attempting precise motion, and it takes a little to get used to.

Thank you...

[TodayIsForgotten]

It's a pretty cool and fun game but i do agree that the neon type colors are distracting. Not so much if you aren't trying to be really aggressive. Explosions that shake the screen tend to make it harder to see whats going on. I believe explosions shake the screen depending on enemy size. Maybe have one small screen shake for every bigger enemy. And of course the colors make it hard to judge where enemy are.

[nZero]

sjewkestheloon, I'd like to start up a competition on these boards for high scores. Would you be in? Do i just start a thread in the Hi Scores (http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=2) section?

Yep, starting the thread and then editing it as new scores are posted is all there is to it. Look at some of the other threads in the forum to get an idea of what kind of format works.

[Jason]

It's a pretty cool and fun game but i do agree that the neon type colors are distracting. Not so much if you aren't trying to be really aggressive. Explosions that shake the screen tend to make it harder to see whats going on. I believe explosions shake the screen depending on enemy size. Maybe have one small screen shake for every bigger enemy. And of course the colors make it hard to judge where enemy are.

It's a delicate balance between attractiveness and playability. If you watch the original Duality ZF videos on youtube, everything is crystal clear, and perfect for shmup fans to see and play at their best, but looks so totally bland and lame that no one would buy the damn thing. (But I must say, I find it attractive personally.) I complained about Geometry Wars 2 like crazy that I couldn't see anything, and of course, after a few plays, you learn what to see, and you suddenly become good. Sure you'd be better if there were no bloom and bright neon, but who would've bought the game then? Without anyone playing it, there's less reason to even challenge that top score, unless you're just challenging yourself. So for Score Rush, and later Duality ZF, we are going to try and maintain that balance in which the game looks beautiful, is not too distracting, but plays great, since we know that gameplay is #1 in the end.

TIP:

Please note that you are INVINCIBLE during screen shakes. Without shakes, the game feels bland. I could have maybe only shaken the HUD as I do in Decimation X3, so that the game screen remains clear, but for the Duality engine, which Score Rush uses, I decided to allow full screen shakes and make the player invincible -- NOT as a game feature, but as a prevention of 'death due to something that's not my fault'. However, good players will use this to their advantage.

TIP:

To judge where enemies are, pay attention to the enemy-hit-flash sprite, not the spark that flies off, but the flash that occurs where the bullet hits the enemy. This is where its hitbox is, and where you can die from collisions. If you cannot see enemies merely since there's too much on the screen, and everything's a mess... well... that's Score Rush. This is the INTENSE in Intense Retro. It's what we do. It's hard to bring chaos in order. I hope you appreciate our efforts, and I hope we have somewhat succeeded.

[sjewkestheloon]

sjewkestheloon, I'd like to start up a competition on these boards for high scores. Would you be in? Do i just start a thread in the Hi Scores (http://shmups.system11.org/viewforum.php?f=2) section?

Yes and yes. Although my paltry 50 mil won't get me far I suspect. Better get practising.

[Jason]

Have you all noticed the multi-player scoreboards? Any score with X number of players is also submitted to the scoreboards with X+1, X+2, and X+3 number of players. So you can use all 4 scoreboards as goals to achieve. Yes, I shamelessly placed my name at the top but both Matthew and I can achieve more than 500,000,000 points in Expert (3rd) difficulty mode.

I desire greatly to see people play in multiplayer, since I want to see people absolutely kicking ass, and Score Rush allows this. Perhaps we could also have competitions for multi-player scores? BETTER yet, just a competition for the highest score, no matter how many players?

1,000,000,000 points is possible. I bet even double that is, but let's take one step at a time.