Why cute girls as characters in Touhou-style shmups?

[ZOM]

Clamp? Don't they cultivate that "shy, clumsy heroine and her tomboyish girlfriend supporter character", or "whiny, clumsy heroine with a sweet tooth", or just "clumsy heroine" field? I watched only one episode of Angelic Layer (because it was made by BONES) and it seemed to fit that pattern. Girlish stuff through and through, unlike shooty games in general. I've yet to sense this vibe in any shooter. Clamp are women, aren't they? ZUN is a bloke.

Yup Clamp are four (ugly)gurls and I don't really get the same vibe from any of their stuff in loli STGs either. But I'd rather play a Clamp made shmup than more stuff from ZUN. and I'm not gay thankyou.

Still kudos to ZUN for making this far. or whatever.

[shadowbringer]

comments/opinions from me:
- I got interested in Touhou around 2006, because I was searching for a combo video that I've seen in a fighting game tournament, by chance. I didn't find that video on Youtube, but found this one instead. (later, I would then realize that Youtube had a 10 minute limit for most videos, and found that video in particular here. Also.. this has convinced me that this game owned)
- Imperishable Night and Phantasmagoria of Flower View were among the first games of this series that I tried. The unlockable "Last Word spellcards" in the Spellcard Practice room (which is only featured in IN, so far) made me replay the game for a lot of times, and not being able to access Extra Stages and see good endings without 1ccing the games in this series made me start care about not credit-feeding (something that I would do before, not only for shmups but for action games as well)
- around the time Mountain of Faith was released (in the middle of 2007), I think I started caring about score. Before MoF's release, though, I decided to try other shmups (in MAME), since before playing the Touhou games and caring to 1cc them, I thought that it was too easy to die in arcade/console shmups, and that there wasn't much care for if the game was really beatable on a single credit. Watching replays of Touhou games made me realize that it wasn't the case, and so I tried to see if I was really mistaken about non-Touhou shmups as well. Later I found out that trying to 1cc Touhou games isn't as difficult as people may initially believe, as the games give lots of bombs and lives. (and there were even people within the Touhou fanbase that demonstrated that 1ccing Normal Modes for most games aren't really as difficult, if the goal is really to 1cc them: MoF and PCB)
- after having found that 1ccing isn't much of a challenge in Touhou games in comparison with arcade games, I also found out that I didn't enjoy scoring in (most of the) Touhou games as much (the reasons may differ from one player to another, but I'm bad at memorizing things, especially when the background is mostly the same through the stage.. and my execution isn't good for grazing and point-blank grazing).

why did ZUN opt to use characters? Perhaps because (as he mentioned in an interview) he was influenced by how Darius Gaiden made people see each (or most) of its bosses as unique ones. Though the series may have started as a school project, given that the series' first game was similar to Arkanoid/Breakout in terms of gameplay. I don't know much about other shmup series featuring characters instead of ships, but ZUN seems to like to use (base himself on, or to alter) elements of japanese culture/mythology on it, and to make a setting layout through official works (manga/fanbooks/music cds), besides the in-game informations about the setting for this series.

I'm running out of time right now, however I can say that there are different reasons that make people like the series (not counting the Touhou fans who don't like to play the games), and not enjoy other games of the genre, one of them being how they "like the bullet patterns" and characters. Perhaps the potential for fanworks (which range from music cds, fanarts, fangames, fanfics, etc.) and the playerbase (for fighting games as well) go along well enough. For my case, I like variety, and enjoy scoring systems, so I may be a minority.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

yea i might moan a little bit about touhou fans (Telling TouTards to drop dead is a great way to blow off steam lol) but any body who really loves and plays the games is ok in my book while touhou isnt really my cup of tea (but i havnt given them much of a chance) calling a shmupper who plays touhou is just as bad as calling someone who like panzer dragoon or space invaders although the dragon or invaders arnt dressed in frilly loli outfits but thats a whole different kettle of fish.

[ROBOTRON]

[Jeneki]

From what I've seen at anime conventions, many "otaku type" will still choose voluptuous over loli. I tossed in Saturn Sengoku Blade a while back. At the character selection screen I would regularly hear groups say things like "Take the chick with the giant knockers!" while the small cutsey ninja girl gets ignored. And bonus hooting during the cutscenes (the Saturn version adds extra cleavage jiggle).

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm the type of a gamer who virtually always choses to play as a woman (unless male alternative has got, say, super awesome katana, whereas woman wields a club or a hammer, which rubs me the wrong way, oddly), but not because of the fetishes. Quite simply, I care about the running "Wake up!" Pulstar chick more than I would about a guy (most likely military man to boot). Last night I started Twisted Metal: Black (this time seriously properly), and Dollface was my natural player character of choice. There's nothing cute about the game, and nothing likeable about her. Playing as her just feels more "natural".

Yup Clamp are four (ugly)gurls and I don't really get the same vibe from any of their stuff in loli STGs either. But I'd rather play a Clamp made shmup than more stuff from ZUN. and I'm not gay thankyou.

You're on shmups.system11.org, though.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

I just wanted to add to this lively and intelligent discussion that I wouldn't even have a problem with really hot female pilots that Cave could slap on every bit of merchandise they sell - as long as they look tough and not like the pork girls - but from an aethetical viewpoint, flying around with a big titted chick looks quite ridiculous in comparison to a "manly" spacecraft or helicopter or similar. What I'm trying to say is, you can use tits to advertise your game, but as soon as you start playing, it shouldn't make that much of a difference for the nerds if they pilot a proper aircraft instead of flying around with a scantily clad playmate like only pansy would. I'm probably wrong, but damn it if that whole fucking loli-trend isn't the most retarded thing to implement into shmups ever....

edit: should have read the complete thread before opening my flap... that's exactly what I'm talking about:

[evil_ash_xero]

Others can answer it far better than me, but I think it's a sucky trend.

When I was a kid, I liked playing with Transformers...not Rainbow Brite. I feel the same today.

But sometimes you just have to accept it, if the game is too kick ass.

[silkworm944]

When I was a kid, I liked playing with Transformers...not Rainbow Brite. I feel the same today.

But sometimes you just have to accept it, if the game is too kick ass.

That basically where I'm at too. I always played with the typical boys toys and action figures as a kid and that carried over into my first gaming experiences as a teenager on the Amiga 500 and to current day on the PC. Your right though, if a game is awesome enough you can't ignore it because of the style of player character choices you're given.

I must admit I've been a little surprised by the trend as I've got deeper into the world of Japanese shooters. Initially I thought it may have had something to do with a part of Japanese culture that I didn't know about, which is why I started this topic. It appears though, from reading all the good responses here, that there are a number of different reasons for the use of these characters in shmups and games in general.

I'd say it'll be something I may or may not get used to... time will tell.

[Skykid]

Nothing wrong with Touhou games except the gushing fan following. They're shmups with a particular style and easy to get into, and some of the patterns are great.

I couldn't care less about any of the stupid looking characters or they're dumb-ass soap opera back stories. If I was that interested in the goings on of eight year old girls I'd hang out in the corner of a school playground and eavesdrop for gossip.

For some reason being the geekiest bastard on the face of the earth is way more acceptable in Japan, it's just amazing how much of that has now been embraced (and so enthusiastically) by lonely western gamers. Just remember: the more enthusiastic you are about children, the more likely you'll be reported to the authorities. So stay indoors and don't tell anyone of your passion for loli's except your internet 'friends.'

Although I'm a huge Cave fan and have quite a bit of merchandise, the Deathsmiles thing really hasn't appealed beyond the Side Arms style game itself. I do like some of Inoue's in game artwork, but I wouldn't buy a Windia dress to go off and masturbate in.
The aforementioned Koyori (in her Sengoku Ace variation) is definitely a man's shmup avatar.

[ChurchOfSolipsism]

I think we all agree that the only thing that has any real importance is whether the game is good or not. Still, those fucking lolis... fuck them and the pedos they rode in on.

[Mortificator]

those fucking lolis... fuck them

OMG conflict of interest.

From what I've seen at anime conventions, many "otaku type" will still choose voluptuous over loli. I tossed in Saturn Sengoku Blade a while back. At the character selection screen I would regularly hear groups say things like "Take the chick with the giant knockers!"

I'm only half-joking when I say this is a relief.

[lgb]

Apparently one Touhou game (don't remember the name) has got better looking artwork by someone else than ZUN.

I won't say anything about the "better looking" bit, but 2 3/4 games are known specifically to have outside help: alphes drew portrait art for Touhou Suimusou (1), Touhou Hisouten (1), and Touhou Hisoutensoku (expansion to the previous; 1/2), and helped ZUN retouch artwork for Touhou Kaeidzuka (1/4).

Nothing wrong with Touhou games except the gushing fan following. They're shmups with a particular style and easy to get into, and some of the patterns are great.

Oh yes, there are problems. ZUN barely bothers to upkeep these games anymore.

[Skykid]

Oh yes, there are problems. ZUN barely bothers to upkeep these games anymore.

Sorry man, upkeep?

I don't have an extensive knowledge of Touhou, although I've played some of the games for a while enough to figure them as fun diversions. It's the slow speed of the bullets and the sheer volume which makes them fun to play.

[lgb]

ZUN doesn't take this seriously. Really, he never has but he absolutely refuses to patch any of his games or even really test them anymore.

The games are fine as they are but they could be so much better with only a little bit more work. He needs to stop playing the yearly game, SNK got the hell over that eventually.

[TrevHead (TVR)]

Ive allways wondered why ZUN doesnt take touhou farther then what it is atm. With the fan following it has touhou could be so much more. Be it more of a commercial venture with its own anime, (why did he stop that fan anime?) Or just to take the games further. As touhou is so popular atm and its fans seem to lap up anything thats touhou. why doesnt ZUN take his games up a few notchs and really give everyone a shmup (or another game) something amazing instead of the same old stuff every year?

One could argue that by doing this touhou wouldnt be touhou or he would be selling out but its not as if touhou isnt everywhere as it is anyway. Maybe ZUNs scared that if he goes commercial the fad will quickly burn itself out where as if he keeps it doujin itll stay popular for years to come. Whats ZUNs job anyway? he must have some dough to not take touhou for every penny he can.

[Rozyrg]

It's not my cup of tea either and yeah, I'll take macho-looking jets/planes/spaceships/etc. over cute big-headed magical girls any day. Well, any human character, really....outside of say, Pocky and Rocky, that always just looked -odd- to me. Still, shooters are games at just about their simplest, so I can accept those kind of 'divergences'. You move, you shoot things as they appear on the screen, rack up a huge score and that's pretty much it. I'd say there's a bit of leeway there visually.

If it looks cool and/or is genuinely pleasing to the eye, I say whatever you put there is fine. Same with enemies, it doesn't really matter as long as they look cool and are fun to blow up. Besides, does it really make that much more sense to have a lone space pilot wiping out entire armies (and sometimes cities) almost effortlessly?

And yeah, I'm one of those guys who always picks the girl with the huge tits.

[EPS21]

Ive allways wondered why ZUN doesnt take touhou farther then what it is atm. With the fan following it has touhou could be so much more. Be it more of a commercial venture with its own anime, (why did he stop that fan anime?) Or just to take the games further. As touhou is so popular atm and its fans seem to lap up anything thats touhou. why doesnt ZUN take his games up a few notchs and really give everyone a shmup (or another game) something amazing instead of the same old stuff every year?

One could argue that by doing this touhou wouldnt be touhou or he would be selling out but its not as if touhou isnt everywhere as it is anyway. Maybe ZUNs scared that if he goes commercial the fad will quickly burn itself out where as if he keeps it doujin itll stay popular for years to come. Whats ZUNs job anyway? he must have some dough to not take touhou for every penny he can.

He just makes the games for his own fun, if releasing each game year after year is his idea of fun, so be it. Given how much the animu has enraged him, I think he doesn't want people to remember and know of touhou based on all the fanworks, but by the games first and foremost. I think if he were to "turn it up a few notches," it probably wouldn't be something he could call his own, and not like it in the end.

He probably makes a fine bit of cash just selling the games as it is, I believe he's a programmer at Taito from what I've read, is that still true? This is probably better asked towards the other ZUN freaks out there, but eh, some of em are here.

[cul]

Underage flat chested girls are just a more economically viable option than big boobed mature women for Japanese indie dev now.
Not surprising when you see the target audience.
Hell, there would even be a thesis to write about how the loli market switched from being a niche market to the main market thanks to the MOE~~ trend.


Anyway:

[esreveR]

Out of interest, when did cute female player characters start appearing in shmups?

Shameless plug!

Where the fuck is Eri I'm going to kill someone

Uh, anyway, I play girls often because A) It's better to stare at a girl than it is to stare at a guy when playing a video game, B) Carmine's just too damn good a plane, and C) No one is as badass as Eri Kasamoto. Also can't they have girls that are like 16-20 or something? Lolis and milfs are no good for me.

Also in order of selection I typically go Badass female monster/robot thing > Badass male monster/robot thing > Badass girl > Badass guy > Cutsey girl > Uh...don't want to go there > Tier. Some exceptions to this rule of course (For example the Bf109 in Strikers 1945 has an awesome pilot but because she is only shown at the very end and the Bf109 simply sucks ass I tend to go for something else...I kind of forgot what though).

AND NOW YOU KNOW WHY I LOVE JUSTICE FROM GUILTY GEAR

[BulletMagnet]

Where the fuck is Eri I'm going to kill someone

She's in there!

[saucykobold]

That was a very interesting read, thanks

as well as the second player of the many-buttoned Daioh

She actually gets top billing. The red armor corresponds with the red 1P ship.

[Subterranean Sun]

Seriously, who the fuck will care about lolis? DOJ also have some lolis but it's still a manly game because it's ridiculously tough and fun, isn't it?

[Obiwanshinobi]

The aforementioned Koyori (in her Sengoku Ace variation) is definitely a man's shmup avatar.

More like a boy's shmup avatar.
When arcade games were mainstream, busty ladies were supposed to lure adolescent boys. PC doujin fodder seems to be aimed at quite different audience.

[Moleculoman]

As some have already alluded too, the answer to this question lies outside of the games in question.

It goes without saying that we see "cute" girls/characters displayed in everything from games, to merchandise, to Boeing 747's. It stems from the "kawaii" aspect in Japanese popular culture. That you would find such aspects in a Japanese game, something the creator is trying to market in an already saturated market filled with other merchandise with simliar branding is a no brainer.

[Moleculoman]

The question of why the cute/kawaii culture became especially prominent in Japanese culture was something that interested me during my studies of the country's history in college. Suffice it to say I've not read up on the subject that much, however what I can conclude is that part of the appeal of "kawaii" is that it evokes a non-threatening, harmonious posture/feeling. Those familiar with the Japanese language and culture as it relates to how people relate to one another in personal and professional settings can understand this notion.

"Cuteness" is a highly desirable trait, with its manifestions appearing in pretty much everything you can think of. It is a part of Japan's national identity, and they've been successful in exporting it.

There is more to be said on the subject, but I think that at least addresses the initial question of...uh....why cute girls are in Touhou games!!!

[cul]

Kawaii is so 1999. Now it's all about the moe.

[soloista]

"Cuteness" is a highly desirable trait, with its manifestions appearing in pretty much everything you can think of. It is a part of Japan's national identity, and they've been successful in exporting it.

There is more to be said on the subject, but I think that at least addresses the initial question of...uh....why cute girls are in Touhou games!!!

Basically, the definition/characteristics of a beautiful Asian woman is really different between the East and West. I'd like to add, that in Asian cultures, soft-featured faces on women is preferable. That's why Westernized places in Asia and other places in the West prefer hard cheeks and chins. I'd like to point you guys to the issue on Mirror's Edge about the heroine's looks.

As for the female cast in Touhou, I think it's a logical step from how they had women in shmups.

On another perspective, it's interesting to note that Touhou was starting out around the time when Galaxy Fraulein Yuna was concluding. What do they have in common? The large female cast. (In other words, I understand that GFYuna is the proto-Touhou and the proto-Nanoha).

[captpain]

Getting a boner while playing shmups. Woot

[ShmupSamurai]

As long as it can blow the ever-loving SH!T outta whattever attacks me, I don't care if it's a boy, girl, dragon, or machince. Although I would like some dragon/human hybrids for a change...

Kawaii is so 1999. Now it's all about the moe.

and what's wrong with 1999, may I ask?

kawaii over moe.

1999= best year of my childhood.