I'm sick of seeing games with guns and bald space marines!!

[TigerCraneFist]

anybody remember pyschonauts?

I dont think EA and activision can really be used as examples for this argument... its pretty clear they could give a shit about making good games. Thats pointing to the worst of the worst to make a valid point about "western" games...

Fact is-- it is big business now and there is alot of money to be made in this business... there will always be studios popping up in an attempt to either create the next big IP to cash in or else in hope for the eventuality of being bought out by someone like Activision.

In response to the original posters question... "do I gotta make it myself?"... my response would be do it! Everyone has the ideas and man do they like to tell other people about them, but where most people fall short is the motivation to see something like that through. It amounts to alot of talk and that's it. Maybe that is the difference between western game developers and japanese ones.

I have some friends that came to America from Japan to work in game studios because there was a lot of money to be made in them here.... In Japan, they tell me, there is no money to be made working on games. They work loooong hours and work all the time and are generally treated like shit, low class citizens. The majority of people making games over there are people who are willing to "eat bitter" because they love games so much. Sacrifice for something you are passionate about.

[Obiwanshinobi]

The manliest of protagonists.

Who needs weapons?

Kazuma Kaneko is the man, but this Nocturne guy... Dunno, seems asexual to me, or rather sexually hibernated. The badass thing about MegaTen protagonists is that they are so unlikeable you just have to like them. Serph for instance, on top of being such a prick, sports really nasty looks in combat mode.

[Blade]

If I were to say the FPS-style games that have caught my eye over the years:

Aliens VS Predator
Metal Gear Online
Perfect Dark
Goldeneye

The reason being they don't use conventional buff characters, or conventional means of killing people.

Even the characters have their more-than-generic apperances during multi-player modes. If I wanted to play an FPS, I'd rather dress like a slim cyberninja who could deflect bullets and be invisible than some beefjerky bald marine with a massive machinegun named Sasha. (I'm not ripping on the game, TF fans, I'm ripping on the stereotype).

And even then, there are only so many games out there who steer away from traditional point and shoot mentality. I like the idea of stealth kills, action from 3rd person perspective, and an elaborate combat or combo system.

I've very rarely seen games like Zone of Enders or Gundam VS Gundam Next Plus or even Armored Core get as appreciated as traditional run and gun FPS games...is it really that hard to come up with a new idea?

And in the veins of RPGs and action games...sure there are spikey haired stereotypes or big breasted heroines...but how many characters in that stereotype do people actually appreciate in comparison to plain and generic styled characters?

Honestly, I'd be quicker to notice Strider Hiryu and his trademark flying scarf than Cloud Strife and his giant sword. At least...in an action game. Same goes for a game like Ninja Gaiden...even if the main character looks good...since he's constantly moving around...how can people appreciate that?

That's why I like character designs that work with the character as opposed to against what the character does in-game. If you're Strider...you're hopping around and slashing things and your cape is trailing behind you to make you look cool as you move around. When Okami runs around, she leaves a trail of flowers behind her...

About the most exciting moments in Halo games that I've seen are the explosion physics where you see bodies go flying every which way...that's about it though.

[RoninBuddha]

im sick of seeing games with traps and magical lolis

[Specineff]

We need blue skies in our games.

[BryanM]

but where most people fall short is the motivation to see something like that through. It amounts to alot of talk and that's it.

I know, it's an ocean of work and people are way too lazy or ADD to follow through even on a very small game.

Cave Story took five years of the guy's free time to develop. That's about what the scale of a first effort with a non-recycled engine of a "non trivial" game runs about.

Here is a handy guide to guesstimates of how long a thing takes to develop from current exp:

Significant feature - 1 month
Minor feature - 1 to 7 days
A piece of content - .5 to 4 hours

Work your ass off nonstop and you might be able to squeeze 20-40 games out in your lifetime. These are happy thoughts.

It's not shameful at all to give up on a project. It is shameful to make up bullshit stories to try to save your imaginary "internet cred" like those Chrono Trigger "hack" guys did.

It's also shameful to believe bullshit when it is very obviously a puddle of stinky cow turd.

[EPS21]

im sick of seeing games with traps and magical lolis

This. The Japanese are no better, perhaps even worse, in following a set formula for making a successful formula that'll sell. Those quirky games with loli's are actually very normal for the kind of market they're being made for.

[ncp]

Sure is GLORIOUS NIPPON IS SUPERIOR in here...

[lgb]

I'm sick of seeing games that cater to what people actually want as opposed to games that are going to be avoided like miniature plagues if created in excess and without preplanning whatsoever, in a "worldwide economic crisis"

ugh, ya know

[Obiwanshinobi]

As long as these Adventures of Brown & Grey sell, they will keep being made.
No One Lives Forever series also had phenomenal character design. The humour wasn't quite up my alley, but it looked pretty much like a console game (in the era when it still meant something). Kingpin was very stylish too.
The style I'd like someone to pick up is the early 3D Sega style, proudly polygonal. Virtua Cop, Virtual-On, this sort of stuff.

[Zeether]

I like tacos.

[worstplayer]

The style I'd like someone to pick up is the early 3D Sega style, proudly polygonal. Virtua Cop, Virtual-On, this sort of stuff.

Like this?

[Ed Oscuro]

The style I'd like someone to pick up is the early 3D Sega style, proudly polygonal. Virtua Cop, Virtual-On, this sort of stuff.

Like this?

I just saw somebody's head exploded as they ran through the camera at 5 miles per hour towards the hero, AWEZOME

I'll look into that one.

Anyway I don't really give a crap about style or no; Kingpin is a great example of all hat and no cattle. Some of the setting was OK, a lot of it was plain ugly, and shame about the actual game. They had a shop system and amazingly managed to do absolutely nothing with it.

[ZOM]

The style I'd like someone to pick up is the early 3D Sega style, proudly polygonal. Virtua Cop, Virtual-On, this sort of stuff.

That style with a bit higher polygon counts would look similar to this I think.

[Obiwanshinobi]

I'm afraid you can't have it both ways, though. Either high-poly models, or low-poly charm. Killer7 had rather complex models for its time.
Not that I played Kingpin a lot, but I liked what I saw (and heard; 3D sound, man). It wasn't only beefed up engine (real-time shadows, man). Wonder how many of today's first person shooters will maintain this much style ten years down the line.

Like this?

Highly disturbing, but yeah, the artistic direction looks promising (although the animations leave a lot to be desired). When you're limited to but a few polygons per character, you can't get away with, say, just big breasts.

[Khan]

The style I'd like someone to pick up is the early 3D Sega style, proudly polygonal. Virtua Cop, Virtual-On, this sort of stuff.

Like this?

I just saw somebody's head exploded as they ran through the camera at 5 miles per hour towards the hero, AWEZOME

I'll look into that one.

Anyway I don't really give a crap about style or no; Kingpin is a great example of all hat and no cattle. Some of the setting was OK, a lot of it was plain ugly, and shame about the actual game. They had a shop system and amazingly managed to do absolutely nothing with it.

The biggest draw Kingpin had back in its day was the profanity, it was the controversy that the game bought with it that drew people to play it, plus it also helps when it was one of the first fps games that introduced a flamethrower as a weapon, I remember using it for the first time hehe (voodoo 2 ftw!) and If I remember rightly cypress hill also did the sound track to the game too.

"ARE YOU GONNA STAND DERE ALL DAY? GET DA FUCK OUTTA HERE!" one of my most fav npc lines.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Are you talkin' to my bitch?!
Just watched some Kingpin videos on YouTube. These light sources, flares or whatever still look pretty good (same goes for Heretic II). I haven't played that many Quake II engine-powered games, but it was one mighty engine. Pretty lights never get old.
Which reminds me of Anachronox. Terrific graphics even these days, poor character animations excluded. It really sucks that unofficial patches disable 3D sound. I've yet to hear how it actually sounds now, but after the crashfest of my first, unfinished run, there's no way I'm replaying it patchless. I'm moaning like that because the hardware accelerated 3D sound was really something in Anachronox.

[Ed Oscuro]

[...] Anyway I don't really give a crap about style or no; Kingpin is a great example of all hat and no cattle. Some of the setting was OK, a lot of it was plain ugly, and shame about the actual game. They had a shop system and amazingly managed to do absolutely nothing with it.

The biggest draw Kingpin had back in its day was the profanity, it was the controversy that the game bought with it that drew people to play it, plus it also helps when it was one of the first fps games that introduced a flamethrower as a weapon, I remember using it for the first time hehe (voodoo 2 ftw!) and If I remember rightly cypress hill also did the sound track to the game too.

"ARE YOU GONNA STAND DERE ALL DAY? GET DA FUCK OUTTA HERE!" one of my most fav npc lines.

Haha, yeah, are you talkin' to my bitch indeed.

I found out about Kingpin maybe a year or two after its release by looking at some unused textures (I think) on the classic WAD site "The Wadfather." To me the big draw was always the retro-present idea (I think a tagline for the game goes something like "a world where the past never met the future"). As has been the case with basically every single game that I thought would be epic but didn't get a chance to play until recently, it kind of failed miserably to approach whatever my expectations were. (This has been a recurring theme with me lately, just check the FPS thread.)

The dialogue presentation was stronger than usual for the time as one of the members of Cypress Hill did some voices. Still doesn't hold a candle to the grainy Half-Life audio though (not much does).

There are some good areas and ideas in the game, but the whole episode in the docks / fishing area got me down. A lot of the game more or less exactly that, unfortunately. Also, I'm still waiting for that angry woman from the end to show up at my doorstep...still hasn't happened, still sitting here counting my dough

About the shop system: You picked up these grand wads of $5 at a time off thugs at the beginning of the game, went to the shop, got buzzed in (damn annoying even with a semi-modern hard drive). After a look at all the inventory you realize it was either: not necessary (more bullets - not an issue certainly later in the game), not really helpful (silencers - you know all the enemies are just going to run at you so you can drop them and pick up more guns and moolah), or not available (all the good stuff). So what the hell was the point of having a shop system if you couldn't scrimp and save to get a flamethrower with only a few seconds of fuel to play with at the beginning? RARGHblahs horrible design. Maybe not as annoying as the endgame of Soldier of Fortune though, where the weapon carry limit becomes a real pain in the butt (and only the heavy machine gun is useful against the last boss anyway).

Anyway if somebody is sick of guns and bald space marines, they could always try out the Big Fish Games hidden item games, like Mystery Case Files: Ravenhearst, Madame Fate, Return to Ravenhearst, or Mystery P.I. The New York Fortune, Lost in Los Angeles, whatever. Kind of a reminder to be thankful for the action games genre I guess (if you can stop focusing on your eyes killing you, whatever.)

[dcharlie]

The only genre I personally feel that western devs are doing well in are FPS games everything else they simply dont have the creativity or stylistic talents of the Japanese/Asian developers.

different horses for different courses, but couldn't disagree with this sentiment any stronger this gen. The Japanese have, on the whole, lost it this gen IMO. There's still good games out there, but generally the west is the one turning out the goods on a regular basis.

[ZOM]

The only genre I personally feel that western devs are doing well in are FPS games everything else they simply dont have the creativity or stylistic talents of the Japanese/Asian developers.

different horses for different courses, but couldn't disagree with this sentiment any stronger this gen. The Japanese have, on the whole, lost it this gen IMO. There's still good games out there, but generally the west is the one turning out the goods on a regular basis.

I would agree on this one to some extent, but too bad almost everything from the west except FPS plays like shit because they have the urge to incorporate the oh so "fluid" animations that all kids seem to love these days. And don't get me started on the waiting game I have to play after I pushed a button these days.(which is also mostly related to the epic animationz)

Then there's the episodic trend mixed with realism. Checked out Alan Wake yet? I hope you liked track and field. You will run around. a lot.

[dcharlie]

I think a big part of the problem is the games that get thrust into the spot light - i don't personally mind most of them, but the games i tend to go gaga over aren't ones that most of "the kids" would go for.

That said - i think this is the strongest gen in years for gaming from a western perspective. A smattering of great Western RPGs , amazing sports games, great puzzlers, racing games, FPS games is over saturated but still has it's stars, etc etc. I dunno, i can think of a great game in almost every genre - where the Japanese are still ruling the roost tends to be in the pure arcade sector (shmups for instance) and -some- of the JRPG output has been good (Demons Souls being -excellent- but on the whole massively disappointing compared to last gen)

I have to add though that i think this is ONLY on the consoles where Japan seems to have lost it's way - on the DS and PSP they are still producing a ton of star content.

dont think EA and activision can really be used as examples for this argument... its pretty clear they could give a shit about making good games. Thats pointing to the worst of the worst to make a valid point about "western" games...

whilst i'm not big on Activision, EA are probably the most improved company out there. Fifa is now -at least- on par with PES/WE (i have basically switched since Fifa 09 and much prefer it to WE/PES), Dead Space had no right to be as good as it was - dulling the arrival of RE5 for me which it -destroyed- in every way shape and form, Mirrors Edge was a failed experiment, but at least it tried to be different and is a gorgeous world to run around in, Burnout Paradise is okay but it's a big step back for the series... throw in that they now have Bioware under there wing so we have Dragon Age (good) and Mass Effect 2 (incredible) as well and EA's output is a massive step up for them.

[Drum]

The rise of the west, at least in the perception of hobbyist gamers, coincides with the huge western shift to consoles. I don't think there's much more to it than that ... I don't think there's actually been a great increase in quality - and certainly not in style & creativity (which was the point dcharlie was responding to), except in the case of indies - it's more that western devs haven't fallen as far as Japanese devs (I think because the tech increase didn't hit them as hard). Which isn't to say they haven't fallen off at all. Like with Japan, it's easier to list the western devs that haven't fallen off or remained stagnant. My list: Rare improved massively (of course, they were then taken apart by MS and sold for scrap), Bethesda recovered from the disappointing Oblivion with Fallout 3, and Valve kept on trucking. Bioware is sort of mixed.
Japan, otoh, has gone to complete shit with only From Software improving. Capcom has avoided dropping out like most of the others (though they've definitely gotten worse than last gen). Nintendo has put out some of their best stuff this gen, but also some of their worst.

[Gungriffon Geona]

Master Chef

I'd love to play an FPS featuring a master chef.
-ud

PO'ed

Fucking cool game if there ever was one. so much crazy shit going on it.

[neorichieb1971]

If Western gaming is getting better on the whole, it just means the East sector have weakened.

Most of the money is now in Western territories and thats why the Japanese have shifted focus on Western gaming. Sony and Microsoft caused this by making their systems so powerful. It seems like to have a percentage of the market these days you need a fairly rich wallet to start with. You don't see any minor league companies breaking into the elite premiership anymore because the gap is just so vast.

To make $150 million in sales you need bald marines on the cover, or some NBA star or some Football player everyone recognises. Unfortunately that means most of the talent out there are forced by hand. The real question is when are the customers buying these bald headed marine games going to get bored of them?

[dcharlie]

To make $150 million in sales you need bald marines on the cover, or some NBA star or some Football player everyone recognises. Unfortunately that means most of the talent out there are forced by hand. The real question is when are the customers buying these bald headed marine games going to get bored of them?

I assume by bald space marine games we are talking about Halo, Gears of War, and ... Call of Duty?

I know there's a few other "bald space marine" games out there, but they tend to bomb.

And guess what? Halo , Gears and Call of Duty? they are all fairly enjoyable. Not always the greatest games ever, Halo single player is guilty of recycling, Gears story pooped all over itself, and Call of Duty is only really good when IW are coding it (and even then MW2 was largely disappointing single player, though the online is still great). The shitty clones ? Not enjoyable. Wow, what a surprise!

Customers will stop buying these three particular games when they stop being enjoyable or there is something better to play.

Out of interest, have you played all these games? i mean, the good ones -and- the shitty ones? I know some people just aren't interested, but it's still always good to have sampled what you're going to troll !

Unfortunately that means most of the talent out there are forced by hand.

there's an absolute ton of companies making games that aren't "Bald space marine" games that have grossed the sort of money you are talking about. Go check one of the sales sites, and you'll see how many games there are that have managed it.

I've very rarely seen games like Zone of Enders or Gundam VS Gundam Next Plus or even Armored Core get as appreciated as traditional run and gun FPS games

From Softwares "Chrome Hounds" got a fair bit of loving - even as an early single platform game it still managed to outsell the combined sales of the recent Armoured Core games. Online heavy, and the servers now dead - it is still the best game i've played this gen. However, even though it was an unexpected success, it was released/commissioned by Sega - so because they are absolutely adverse to making good decissions , there will not be a Chromehounds 2. :/

[neorichieb1971]

Dcharlie,

There are so many reasons I won't sample the games i'm trolling.

1) They are online and I only play online occasionally.. Their biggest selling point
2) I can't control dual analog that well
3) The games all look the same to me. After watching other people play I got bored very quickly. Rather watch somone play bomberman. I was impressed with the graphics, and wondered how that kind of talent could be used in the genres I like. Games like The Last Guardian etc.

4) I'm in the old school. I prefer a game to have a begining and an end. I like the game to have a story like a good book.

If you look at Capcoms Resident evil 1, it had much more mystery and curiosity than RE4, which is still a good game but lacks a certain mystique about it. Its the same with all the games I like.. Prince of Persia, Ico, Resident evil, Last Guardian, God of War all have stories that unfold in the game. They are all good stories too.

Uncharted 2, for all its merits is a technical demo without a heart. The story was lacking, the gameplay was uber repetitive to the point of despair for me. Even God of War 3, my most anticipated game of 2010 left me cold inside. It lacked any kind of bonding with me. I felt I was just pressing buttons and watching a magical graphics ride on my TV.

To be honest, i'm not sick of seeing bald space marines on the covers of game packaging. Because ultimately I ignore them like they don't exist. I don't even go in the shops to buy games anymore, I buy from amazon or perhaps Tescos on the odd occasion, but usually I pick up what I want and leave.

What people are stating in this thread isn't about the amount of games that are cluttering up the populated shelves of games stores, they are tired of the repetitive and predictable nature of the games industry in general. I can predict Sega of Japan will fall soon as well. It just doesn't make mainstream games and it doesn't change its spots like others seem to able to. Sad then, that for it to survive it has to join the mass of trash already on the shelves to have a fighting chance of survival.

Finally, I have no faith in gaming anymore. Some games are good, some are bad. But there is definitely a lack of magic in the air these days. All the transitions are in technology or pushing the voilence level up a notch. There is definitely room for simple games again. I want to see games where skill is the motivating factor to buy a game. I never thought i'd say this, but the last princess I saved was far too long ago.

[dcharlie]

1) They are online and I only play online occasionally.. Their biggest selling point
2) I can't control dual analog that well
3) The games all look the same to me. After watching other people play I got bored very quickly. Rather watch somone play bomberman. I was impressed with the graphics, and wondered how that kind of talent could be used in the genres I like. Games like The Last Guardian etc.
4) I'm in the old school. I prefer a game to have a begining and an end. I like the game to have a story like a good book.

I think we've had this conversation a few times, we aren't that different in terms of gaming preference or background.

There's a load of games out there that might look like BSM games, but actually aren't - especially if you like a story like a good book. Bioshock, whilst not the greatest first person game in the world, is different enough from the usual crowd to make it interesting, has a stunning believeable and interesting world and has a GREAT story.

Portal is a must play for every gamer. It's incredible in every aspect and the way the "story" unfolds is unbeaten.

I guess the point is (and i know this is the third time i've said this) that there IS the games you are looking for out there. This gen is the same as all the others : there's something out there for pretty much everyone and it's the usual case of ignoring what you don't want and picking out the goodies. There's also indie games as well which have a TON of great content, interesting ideas, etc.

Uncharted 2, for all its merits is a technical demo without a heart.

again, going off the core here, but i disagree. I thought U1 was massively overrated with a bad story and awful characters. U2 addressed all that and the game really fit together - hell, the best part of the game was the shenmue style segment in the hillside village which was so well done it was disarming.

What people are stating in this thread isn't about the amount of games that are cluttering up the populated shelves of games stores, they are tired of the repetitive and predictable nature of the games industry in general.

this isn't a recent phenomenon though - Ocean platform game film tie ins ad infinitum? TUME side scrolling 16 bit platformers? etc etc
Not every game is going to redefine gaming or a genre, it's just the law of everything - 99% crap, 1% gold.

All the transitions are in technology or pushing the voilence level up a notch. There is definitely room for simple games again. I want to see games where skill is the motivating factor to buy a game. I never thought i'd say this, but the last princess I saved was far too long ago.

had the same feelings mid ps2 cycle and when the Xbox came out where i was basically DONE with gaming. But then i discovered it was me that was bent out of shape and not the industry. For what you are looking for there are there in abundance, i just get the feeling from our several conversation that you don't want to look. :shrug.

[neorichieb1971]

I think I might be bent out of shape like you say. I'm knocking on the door of 40 in a year or so. That a side, I do look for games that I might like just as much as I look for movies that I like. Except when it comes to movies I find gold quite a lot in comparison.

You say i'm not looking but I did say I go round peoples homes and watch them play 360 games that I would not usually be interested in. I saw Cosmo gang the video being sold in another thread. For some strange reason I feel a draw to it. Maybe it has that ingredient I can't really describe. Its old, its basic, it looks fun and colourful. Same goes for the SF zero games, I love them, the music and cartoony characters Capcom created. I didn't like SFIV that much. It was very Pixar ish and I don't like the music either. They have turned it into something that looks like everything else. Its like the game devs are trying to hit bullseye with every title, not realizing that bullseye is becoming a very crowded spot on the board. SFIV is colorful though.

I agree UC2 in the village was actually rewarding in a weird way. But the game was 99.9% action. I got about 85% of the way through it before the difficulty of the analogs and lack of variety just killed it for me.

The only games that semi appeal to me of late are Joe Danger, Dead Space 2 and Last Guardian.. Modnation racers looks semi appealing as well. But if its like LBP I will feel cheated, because its a lovely idea to create, but I found the controls and overall experience lacking.

I've got a list of games I'm wanting to buy..

Little Ralph - PS1
Warioworld - GC
Money puzzle exchanger - MVS


I've never played any of them, but they got good reviews. If I'm looking that deep, then maybe the surface is trashed and the mines are full of gold. Who knows..

[dcharlie]

I've got a list of games I'm wanting to buy..

Little Ralph - PS1
Warioworld - GC
Money puzzle exchanger - MVS

well, here is the disconnect...

i have Little Ralph and Warioworld.

Little Ralph is good, Warioworld is okay. In the grand scheme of things, they are - sadly- a bit middling. Though LR has a great retro look to it.
I dunno, back in the day i was all over it but now? time hasn't been good to a lot of these games so retrospectively they lose something :/

[Drum]

Yeah, it's weird - I mean, if that's your standard you should be perfectly happy with the kind of stuff that's coming out. I don't think it's a matter of having to look for it, I think it's a matter of not being totally oblivious. The Wii alone could sustain your apparent need for marginal platformers of middling quality.