are these sort of games actually fun?

[ncp]

A shmup forum complaining about hard games, unfair deaths, memorization, and time consumption.

Requesting photomosaic-facepalm please.

[BryanM]

Requesting photomosaic-facepalm please.

This one?

[ncp]

Works for me, thanks chief.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Amazingly atrocious idea pops into pasty white American teenager's head; "I want to make a game!", so they hit up the internet and proceed to make ridiculously unplayable piles of sewage.

Isn't it quite a racist remark?

[Zaarock]

I liked the "hard platformer" design in N and N+, loads of short levels with easily identifiable enemies and pretty interesting jump mechanics (like keeping up momentum in walljumping, etc.) Sure, that means that the control isnt as direct as in shmups as you have to deal with inertia and the like but obviously you eventually get used to it.

ps. checking out the IWBTG makers youtube, he doesnt seem like a complete idiot or anything.

[Davey]

A shmup forum complaining about hard games, unfair deaths, memorization, and time consumption.

Requesting photomosaic-facepalm please.

If somebody made a shmup in the vein of IWBTG it would probably get the same complaints.

The problem isn't the high difficulty, it's the combination of high difficulty and poor design. Unfair (i.e., unforseeable) deaths haven't been a big part of shmups in a long time; bullets in modern shmups are usually visible well before they hit you. It's possible to defeat a semi-difficult shmup boss the first time you face it, given a sufficient combination of skill and luck. In IWBTG, like 90% of the difficulty is knowing what hidden traps lie ahead, so most of the game is just trial-and-error. Once you know what's coming, there isn't a lot to it.

I liked the "hard platformer" design in N and N+, loads of short levels with easily identifiable enemies and pretty interesting jump mechanics (like keeping up momentum in walljumping, etc.)

I haven't spent much time with N+, but it seems like it's a pretty fair game, even when it does get difficult. IWBTG is basically just "LOL U DEID!!11" over and over again. The only thing that would make it bearable would be if the background music was Yakety Sax.

[Udderdude]

IWBTG is basically just "LOL U DEID!!11" over and over again. The only thing that would make it bearable would be if the background music was Yakety Sax.

Only if I was watching someone else suffer through it .. >_>

[lgb]

In IWBTG, like 90% of the difficulty is knowing what hidden traps lie ahead, so most of the game is just trial-and-error. Once you know what's coming, there isn't a lot to it.

you can replace "IWBTG" with any one of hundreds of shmup titles from the 80s and 90s

[BryanM]

'cause spikes that just kind of sit there are so sneaky. No way you can figure out that rubik's cube.

>_>

[ncp]

If somebody made a shmup in the vein of IWBTG it would probably get the same complaints.

The problem isn't the high difficulty, it's the combination of high difficulty and poor design. Unfair (i.e., unforseeable) deaths haven't been a big part of shmups in a long time; bullets in modern shmups are usually visible well before they hit you. It's possible to defeat a semi-difficult shmup boss the first time you face it, given a sufficient combination of skill and luck.

I've seen people say this and I really do not understand it. There are sections in many modern shmups where, if you don't know something is coming and either kill it asap or dodge in a certain direction, the screen WILL fill with bullets and kill you. Yes, you get some get-out-of-jail-free cards with bombs (in some games), but the fact remains that without prior knowledge you will almost never survive the game.

In IWBTG, like 90% of the difficulty is knowing what hidden traps lie ahead, so most of the game is just trial-and-error. Once you know what's coming, there isn't a lot to it.

This is wrong. 90% of the difficulty of IWBTG lies in ridiculous precision. Once you get hit by something once in IWBTG you know it's there, the REAL challenge is timing your movements (and jumps/doublejumps) correctly, and holy shit does it require precision. Coincidentally, this is also the case in shmups.

[Obiwanshinobi]

Woo-hoo, people are making quite large statements based on some other people's let's plays they saw on YouTube. Where did I hear something along those lines?
Aren't Touhou games the most difficult games ever created? I mean, look at all those bullets man, there are, like, three safe pixels on the whole screen and once you know where those pixels are, there isn't a lot to it, provided you can place your hitbox right on one of those pixels right in time. Are you a sadomasochist who has no life and seeks attention, or what? Surely everyone and their dog could "design" such a game.
Or something like that.

[linko9]

OK, well here's a statement based off having actually played the game for a bit: It's not fun, and the level design is poor. This subgenre has been done much better; just look at N, Jumper, and one of my new favorite freeware PC games, Flail (seriously, check it out, it's awesome)

http://mattmakesgames.com/games.php

And I'd like to know who ever claimed that "any one and their dog" could have made Touhou...

[Elixir]

In IWBTG, like 90% of the difficulty is knowing what hidden traps lie ahead, so most of the game is just trial-and-error. Once you know what's coming, there isn't a lot to it.

you can replace "IWBTG" with any one of hundreds of shmup titles from the 80s and 90s

Have you played IWBTG? Even on the first screen, the traps can't be avoided unless you know that they're there. There is a huge difference between "oh, memorize that" and "oh, memorize the entire game so you don't get into situations where you WILL die".

[JoshF]

http://nesguide.com/games/battlekidfortressofperil/

IWBTG, minus un-clever peek-a-boo BS. Too bad it sold out so fast.

[BryanM]

Have you played IWBTG? Even on the first screen, the traps can't be avoided unless you know that they're there.

What the fuck are you talking about? The Delicious Fruits that are right there on the fucking screen, unlike being rear-admiraled in a shooter, or the moving kill walls that take all of 2 fucking seconds to go "hey there's a thing there" and push the fucking r button to fucking not get killed by them again. Which is simpler to avoid than a fucking kill laser when you're in the middle of dodging a shitstorm by a factor of a thousand.

Fuck fuck fuck.

I am throw rock at you.

[Davey]

I've seen people say this and I really do not understand it. There are sections in many modern shmups where, if you don't know something is coming and either kill it asap or dodge in a certain direction, the screen WILL fill with bullets and kill you. Yes, you get some get-out-of-jail-free cards with bombs (in some games), but the fact remains that without prior knowledge you will almost never survive the game.

There may be sections like that, yes, but unlike IWBTG it's not the meat of the game. IWBTG's learning curve is more like a staircase than a curve... make a little progress, die, make a little more progress, die. At least shmups give you the chance to pull some heroic moves out of your ass when you get cornered, even if the odds of surviving aren't too great, and even then it's at least as much luck as skill until you get a feel for the patterns. I think the idea of being able to beat a hard boss on your first try is important, even if it is improbable.

In IWBTG, like 90% of the difficulty is knowing what hidden traps lie ahead, so most of the game is just trial-and-error. Once you know what's coming, there isn't a lot to it.

This is wrong. 90% of the difficulty of IWBTG lies in ridiculous precision. Once you get hit by something once in IWBTG you know it's there, the REAL challenge is timing your movements (and jumps/doublejumps) correctly, and holy shit does it require precision.

In that case I probably just didn't get far enough to see the "legit" difficult parts. This seemed to be the general flow back when I tried it:

1.) Start playing
2.) Get killed by trap
3.) Get a little bit further next time now that you know the trap
4.) Go to 2.)

[BryanM]

http://nesguide.com/games/battlekidfortressofperil/

IWBTG, minus un-clever peek-a-boo BS. Too bad it sold out so fast.

The demo was kind of cool. Thanks for the heads-up.

It's still about as cruel as its inspiration, more-so in some spots, though. Touch some guys after falling a couple of screens - learn not to do that again. Boss that requires a good amount of practice to beat, almost certain 100% death the first time ever fighting him. A bit longer between checkpoints etc.

I wonder how the difficulty modes differ..

[doctorx0079]

This seemed to be the general flow back when I tried it:

1.) Start playing
2.) Get killed by trap
3.) Get a little bit further next time now that you know the trap
4.) Go to 2.)

Yep. This is not fun. In Gradius games you get to stay alive for a while and shoot things before you have to memorize something. The same with R-Type. Also the solutions are not obvious in those games. In IWTBTG the solutions are obvious but there are tons of traps crammed into hardly any levels, and you have to be pixel-perfect with every one. The sadism is supposed to be funny but after a while it's just boring. This game doesn't have enough screens or enough progress. There's nothing to get or really to do. Instead it's just a bunch of traps. It's more fun watching "Super Mario Frustration" on YouTube.

[BryanM]

0_o

I can clear the Battle Kid demo in ~10-15 minutes. The screens almost scream by.

These games just aren't for you.

Or rage against the universe. That's fine with me.

Here's the Battle Kid demo for lazy people too lazy to

[doctorx0079]

Okay TrevHead, BryanM apparently thinks these games are actually fun, but most of us don't. There's your answer.

0_o

I can clear the Battle Kid demo in ~10-15 minutes. The screens almost scream by.

But how does that make it fun though.

[Ex-Cyber]

Here's the Battle Kid demo for lazy people too lazy to

Izzat some palette-swapped Delicious Fruit attacking me? I smell a lawsuit.

[BryanM]

If I was making a derivative game, one of my monsters would be a "sky turtle" that throws poop at you. And when the poop hits the ground, it'd open it's fanged mouth and hop at you. Because the poo hungers for blood.

[orange]

super ear man bros is my favorite game that is in this style

[lgb]

I'm sorry, but this topic is absolutely terrible and ncp pointed it out: there are groups of people who aim these same accusations at the shmup genre, picking games that members here apparently find easy; for this reason, you cannot say that games like IWBTG are not "fun"

[Elixir]

Have you played IWBTG? Even on the first screen, the traps can't be avoided unless you know that they're there.

What the fuck are you talking about? The Delicious Fruits that are right there on the fucking screen, unlike being rear-admiraled in a shooter, or the moving kill walls that take all of 2 fucking seconds to go "hey there's a thing there" and push the fucking r button to fucking not get killed by them again. Which is simpler to avoid than a fucking kill laser when you're in the middle of dodging a shitstorm by a factor of a thousand.

Fuck fuck fuck.

I am throw rock at you.

I wasn't talking about the apples. You're thinking of the screen above. On the very first screen of IWBTG, you have unavoidable traps that can't be avoided unless you already know how to deal with them. Not fun.

[lgb]

And I'd like to know who ever claimed that "any one and their dog" could have made Touhou...

all the western fans are too busy praising to their savior (ZUN) and would never commit such acts of heresy (make their own games)

THEY MUST FOLLOW THE DANMAKUFU DOCTRINE

[Ed Oscuro]

Hey why is I heard that shumps require precisions?

I play Toaplan...reflexes baybee. And Seibu which sometimes is reflexes and sometimes slight precision (mainly timing and the like on RFJ though)

IWTBTG just news in: Still shitty.

all the western fans are too busy fapping to Touhou hentai doujin

fixorated

[MadScientist]

There are more freeware platformers worth playing than freeware shmups.

[captpain]

why would anyone compare games that deliberately trick you over and over with shmups?

that's completely retarded

[lgb]

all the western fans are too busy fapping to Touhou hentai doujin

fixorated

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