Last Hope: Pink Bullets - DC

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:32 pm

RHE wrote:Take a look at CAVE. They do that since years, and no complaint.

CAVE actually improves on AN ALREADY WORKING formula. Even a polished turd is a turd, no?

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:34 pm

Last Hope does work, it's just not accessibility for the mass because it requires intelligence instead of plain reflex.

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:35 pm

RHE wrote:Last Hope does work, it's just not accessibility for the mass because it requires intelligence instead of plain reflex.

Okay than.

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:06 pm

RHE wrote:Last Hope does work, it's just not accessibility for the mass because it requires psychic powers instead of plain reflex.

FIxed.

Also calling anyone at shmups "the mass" is pretty hilarious.

P_HAT · Post by **P_HAT** » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:37 pm

2RHE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissist ... y_disorder

bkk · Post by **bkk** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:08 am

emphatic wrote:
RHE wrote:Last Hope does work, it's just not accessibility for the mass because it requires intelligence instead of plain reflex.

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:11 am

here we go again, memorizer kids vs. twitch kids

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:36 am

Even if you like slow paced memorizers, why not just play Pulstar? At least Pulstar got the whole "no fun" thing right the first time.

KBZ · Post by **KBZ** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:22 am

szycag wrote:Even if you like slow paced memorizers, why not just play Pulstar? At least Pulstar got the whole "no fun" thing right the first time.

I just can't get enough

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:42 am

so the solution is supporting badly designed games

I see

bucklemyshoe · Post by **bucklemyshoe** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 3:07 am

I never played Last Hope so I'll be looking into picking this up.

Nate · Post by **Nate** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:11 am

szycag:

At least Pulstar got the whole "no fun" thing right the first time.

Pulstar IS fun! You just...have to play it a LOT!

*pointing and squinting with my lips squinched-up and my index finger pointed at you...walking away slowly...

THE · Post by **THE** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:21 am

emphatic wrote:
RHE wrote:Take a look at CAVE. They do that since years, and no complaint.
CAVE actually improves on AN ALREADY WORKING formula. Even a polished turd is a turd, no?

Can you elaborate why it is a turd for you? Or are you just a simple hater?

THE · Post by **THE** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:26 am

Udderdude wrote:
RHE wrote:Last Hope does work, it's just not accessibility for the mass because it requires psychic powers instead of plain reflex.
FIxed.

Also calling anyone at shmups "the mass" is pretty hilarious.

Well the "mass" here seems to be totally and exclusively into Danmakus/Cave.
It looks like that memorizers are mostly hated by this group.

It also seems that memorizers and danmakus are like cats and dogs

However Last Hope Pink Bullets is not a memorizer anymore though!

THE · Post by **THE** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:29 am

szycag wrote:Even if you like slow paced memorizers, why not just play Pulstar? At least Pulstar got the whole "no fun" thing right the first time.

I never understand arguments like that, those are completely different games. Different stages, different game mechanics, different graphics, different sounds, different music...and why not just play all of them? If you are into memorizers missing Pulstar is an sacrilege anyway...

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:33 am

THE wrote: It looks like that memorizers are mostly hated by this group.

It also seems that memorizers and danmakus are like cats and dogs :wink

You mean memorizers and "danmakus" are like cats and cats. Whether you have a game like R-Type or DDP, you have to memorize to do well. It's just different levels of memorization (and in the end, surprisingly, when it comes to WR type scoring, DDP requires a heck of a lot more memorization than R-Type.)

I haven't played Last Hope at all, but...:

RHE wrote: Nope, I think you're taking it a bit too far. The game isn't meant to be a scoring shooter at all, just a more accessible gameplay experience. I find a good scoring system has to be there from beginning anyway.

What's the point of the game, to just beat it? I hope you're not serious.

THE · Post by **THE** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:43 am

sikraiken wrote:
THE wrote: It looks like that memorizers are mostly hated by this group.

It also seems that memorizers and danmakus are like cats and dogs :wink
You mean memorizers and "danmakus" are like cats and cats. Whether you have a game like R-Type or DDP, you have to memorize to do well. It's just different levels of memorization (and in the end, surprisingly, when it comes to WR type scoring, DDP requires a heck of a lot more memorization than R-Type.)

Yeah I know what you mean, but a lot of people seem to claim that those games do not require a lot of memorizing. In the end at high level playing, rather all shmups are memorizer to a certain level / arena shmups excluded. I just acquired a DOJ PCB and if it's not a memorizer after stage 2, what it's then?

sikraiken wrote: I haven't played Last Hope at all, but...:
What's the point of the game, to just beat it? I hope you're not serious.

Yeah, it's old school. Where are the times were it was enough to just beat a game, sniff

Edited: typo

THE · Post by **THE** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 6:56 am

RHE wrote:Last Hope does work, it's just not accessibility for the mass because it requires intelligence instead of plain reflex.

Well the wording is a little bit disadvantageous.

The original Last Hope was designed to be played in a more tactical way not just as a simple memorizer.

What does tactical mean in such a game?

You will need to understand it's mechanics, how bullets move, how enemy moves. Each part of the game is perfectly manageable with many different tactics. So if you die you should analyze the situation, how could you survive it, how can I find a solution. Can I use the surroundings for my advantage?, can I use the rotation of my pod for my advantage?, can I use the power beam for my advantage?...it's not just about shooting enemies down and it's not just about memorizing in which order I should chain the enemies.

For example there are always bullets within clouds of explosions and shrapnel. So you need to be aware of that and you could just point blank the bullets and don't fly to near to the exploding enemies.

You can find here a video which shows some of those techniques:
http://www.ngdevteam.com/download.htm

emphatic · Post by **emphatic** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:22 am

THE wrote:
emphatic wrote:
RHE wrote:Take a look at CAVE. They do that since years, and no complaint.
CAVE actually improves on AN ALREADY WORKING formula. Even a polished turd is a turd, no?
Can you elaborate why it is a turd for you? Or are you just a simple hater?

1.CAVE actually improves on AN ALREADY WORKING formula.

Say your favorite game gets a sequel, would you be excited? YES. Also, CAVE make arcade games, not consumer products.

2. Can you elaborate why it is a turd for you? Or are you just a simple hater?

I was not saying that Last Hope is a turd, I was merely generalizing. Pretty graphics, nice soundtrack, boring/tedious gameplay = polished turd.

I'm not a hater (of this game), as I never bought Last Hope in the first place, but if I did, I'd be closer to that now that you're charging people for this again. People's trust has taken a big dent here, so my advice would be releasing a demo download of the first stage that you can burn and play in your Dreamcast. Just putting up a video where someone has memorized the game will look much more fun than it actually is playing said game for real.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:14 am

sikraiken wrote:
RHE wrote: Nope, I think you're taking it a bit too far. The game isn't meant to be a scoring shooter at all, just a more accessible gameplay experience. I find a good scoring system has to be there from beginning anyway.
What's the point of the game, to just beat it? I hope you're not serious.

I actually have to disagree with RHE. Last Hope has a scoresystem which can be exploited to a certain extent and makes the game much more interesting (and more "tactical" if you want to use that term). I was strictly playing for score the whole time - If it wouldn't have been for the scoresystem, I probably wouldn't have played the game at all.
The scoring trick at the second boss is particularly awesome, check it out!

XERO · Post by **XERO** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:12 am

seems like a return and exchange for the new version is a thought. reminds me of a auto recall....sorry, your car is not right....but we will fix it FREE.
maybe i won't buy DUX.....

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 10:46 am

emphatic wrote:I'd be closer to that now that you're charging people for this again.

People who own the original and are decent with it, demand this edition. People who hate the game, mostly don't even pay for it. People who are fine with the original version can pass on it.

I don't see why anyone should be abused by this. It's just that that people want to get it for free. But the thing here is, that we're not talking about a bug fix or something. We're only talking about of making the game more accessible. Some players need this more then others.

sikraiken wrote:What's the point of the game, to just beat it? I hope you're not serious.

I hope you're not serious. Every game is just about beating it in many terms, that may include scoring system (scoring) or just beating the last boss (survival). And or course a combination of both. Last Hope Pink Bullets is not going to be a cakewalk, it still requires skills, just like R-Type. The original Last Hope insted takes the strategical R-Type formula to a next level - most players fail at this, which is not shame. The problem here is, what too many actually play the game, so they hardly can understand what I'm talking about just because of this reason. I mean how can you explain a person at 1992 what a complex danmaku scoring system is w/o that person actually plays the game?

You mean memorizers and "danmakus" are like cats and cats.

Technically they are cat and cat, but in most players mind they are like cat and dog. That's beacause games like R-Type require memorizing from beginning, while danmakus only requierre them to make a top score. Most danmakus players rarely reach that score, so they don't have to memorzie that much.

Plasmo wrote:Last Hope has a scoresystem which can be exploited to a certain extent and makes the game much more interesting (and more "tactical" if you want to use that term).

Alright, but that scoring system is not only near to be as complex like from most modern games though, which is my point.

I was strictly playing for score the whole time - If it wouldn't have been for the scoresystem, I probably wouldn't have played the game at all.

I disagree with you on this. Maybe you're unaware about it, but on your SuperPlay I can clearly see you sometimes take the tactical over the scoring route. Playing for score with Last Hope requires tactical approaching anyway.

Plasmo · Post by **Plasmo** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:45 am

RHE wrote:People who own the original and are decent with it, demand this edition. People who hate the game, mostly don't even pay for it. People who are fine with the original version can pass on it.

I don't see why anyone should be abused by this.

People don't care about the actual gameplay. Look at the highscore topic and compare it with how many copies of LH you've sold.
I don't think people would play the game if it was easier and more accessible.
BUT they are collectors and basically want to buy everything. Thus they CAN NOT pass on it and have to pay the full price for a game they already own and feel abused.
It's that simple.

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:29 pm

We'll see.

I think you're getting it wrong. People obviousely want to enjoy the game like a survial shooter, but they have issues with the game mainly because of visibility issues and an too hard degree of difficulty. Making the game more accessible, and Last Hope turns into a game that features qualities comparable to Last Resort and Pulstar. So taking a look at the highscores doesnt' make sense, because as I say, the game is not meant to be a scoore shooter. You're just completly entitled in your opinion.

Is there any shmup you play on survial only, anway?

battlegorge · Post by **battlegorge** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:40 pm

How are the chances for a steam-download version?
I think many people who dont have a dreamcast would like Last-Hope for PC.

Domino · Post by **Domino** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:01 pm

Played it before, liked it, but don't own a DC.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:12 pm

I think you're making a mistake with this game. I have no idea who your audience is but I think folks are growing weary. Add a new ship or 2, implement a new stage, drastically change the mechanics, anything with substance.

I play for survival only and I enjoyed your initial version but it's really just over-milking now. You seem to be trying to profit off collectibility but with each new minimal increment, your reputation is being tarnished and games ignored by more people.

RHE · Post by **RHE** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:30 pm

The audience are people who want to enjoy the original version, but they now can't just becasue of a very few thing they call flaws. They requtes this editon many times This editon is what we do instead of doing a plain reprint - you have to see it from this point of view. And there are many people who demand this, so it's fine.

This edition is clearly is for gamers, and not collectors.

The Coop · Post by **The Coop** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:31 pm

emphatic wrote:
RHE wrote:Take a look at CAVE. They do that since years, and no complaint.
CAVE actually improves on AN ALREADY WORKING formula. Even a polished turd is a turd, no?

I personally think it's questionable to keep releasing tweaked and adjusted versions, yet charge full price for each tweaked release. Black label, death label, periwinkle with fuchsia pinwheels label... it's rather lame regardless of who does it, as it just reeks of cash run.

Jockel · Post by **Jockel** » Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:40 pm

THE wrote: I just acquired a DOJ PCB

thanks again, i'm enjoying Mushi a lot

I don't think it's fair to bash Last Hope (and LH Pink Bullets) too hard.
It's basically a doujin shooter, no one expected it to be the holy grail of STGs.
You guys compare it to the big names of the industry, and i think that just ain't right.

And i don't think it's milking to release an improved version.
Even though it would be nice to offer some trade-in service for
the guys who already have bought (or in my case, won) the game -
but wouldn't make sense from a financial standpoint.