JP Senko no Ronde Rev. X and the US version...

[Enhasa]

I'm going to give you one more chance to understand this. I'm not going to waste my time namedropping games because I'm not insecure like you are. Imagine they are there if it makes you feel better.

Within a genre, people will criticize games that have too much inertia. If considered from a 1p shmup perspective, Senko would look like it has a lot of inertia. This would be a bad idea because it is not a 1p shmup any more than it is, say, a 2p puzzler. Within the 2p fighter realm, as you say yourself, it is at the bottom end of the inertia spectrum. This is why complaining about the inertia is stupid.

By saying that inertia is a "detrimental factor," you're implying the lower the better. This is not true because no fighter has zero inertia, because it has a purpose: to allow punishing. There is an optimal range, and while Senko doesn't fall in the 1p shmup optimal range, it is actually on the lower end of the 2p fighter optimal range.


I can find problems with any game I like (there isn't even a single developer with >2 games to their credit that I really like every one of their games). It's just that in Senko, inertia isn't one of them. The biggest problem I see is that being a boss isn't interactive enough. Attacks should be more controllable and dodging more possible, and to balance, make them less buff. (Ironically, if you said the boss aspect of Senko has too much inertia, I could agree with you there, but that's not what you meant.) Bosses are also poorly balanced at the edges of skill: they're too strong newb vs newb, and too weak pro vs pro. These would be addressed if the bosses were more regular-sized; tweaking the large boss formula wouldn't solve it.

As for the non-core stuff, this game has a steep learning curve but the game itself provides you almost no support for learning, not even any text explanation. Story mode alternate endings are obtuse to trigger and don't give feedback. Score attack is highly luck-based to get top scores and based on checkpoint milking. Live is implemented poorly, as cheating and piggybacking are rampant and make rankings mostly pointless, and there aren't options for you to find similarly matched opponents anyway. The font is overly stylized, and in particular, it is extremely difficult telling apart the 1 and 2 digits (highly important!) without significant experience.


BTW, you are the fanboy.

[Elixir]

This is an internet forum. You don't give people "chances" to understand anything, you either explain yourself clearly enough for people to comprehend you; something previously deserted, I guess - or you digress. So far, all I'm seeing is you trying to claim that the inertia factor in Senko is stupid, because other games don't/do have more/less of it. No, that's stupid.

I'm going to give you one more chance to understand this. I'm not going to waste my time namedropping games because I'm not insecure like you are. Imagine they are there if it makes you feel better.

What? What the fuck? That is by far the most idiotic thing I have ever read. No, you're not refraining from namedropping because I'm insecure (which, might I add, makes absolutely no sense in any manner of interpretation), but because you can't think of any to back up your own claim. It might actually help your case a little more if you, you know, "namedropped" games with inertia which you could compare to Senko. I mean hey, you were the one who said inertia was irrelevant to begin with because other games have it, right? Right.

By saying that inertia is a "detrimental factor," you're implying the lower the better. This is not true because no fighter has zero inertia, because it has a purpose: to allow punishing. There is an optimal range, and while Senko doesn't fall in the 1p shmup optimal range, it is actually on the lower end of the 2p fighter optimal range.

It is true, and I never said that zero inertia is a beneficial factor. I said that lower inertia in, say, Senko 2, would be better. The way Senko controls isn't welcoming to newcomers and this so-called "deep" game you're finding isn't something that most people will also find.

BTW, you are the fanboy.

Of? I don't play mecha games, but of the little that I have, Zone of the Enders 2 stood out. So of course, I'd use it as an example because it applies here. I don't even like robots.

Within a genre, people will criticize games that have too much inertia. If considered from a 1p shmup perspective, Senko would look like it has a lot of inertia. This would be a bad idea because it is not a 1p shmup any more than it is, say, a 2p puzzler. Within the 2p fighter realm, as you say yourself, it is at the bottom end of the inertia spectrum. This is why complaining about the inertia is stupid.

I was comparing it from both perspectives, actually. Senko is within its own genre which can't be compared to many other games which come close, but if it stood alone (I'm sure there's other shmup/fighter hybrids out there), the issue would be even more significant. Otherwise, why are people complaining about it/have complained about it? I don't recall saying myself that it was at the bottom of this so-called non-existent "inertia spectrum" which can't exist without "namedropping other games".

[Erinu]

Zaarock, he's a shitplayer so he means "how come it looks cool and fast in vids but when I play it dun look like that, I wuz TRICKED" Ahahaha, funniest thing I've heard in years! That whole post is gold, "this isn't new for most mecha games," A+ reviewer material.

Ok. The first thing you can try is having enough courtesy to address the people who you are replying to. Second of all I am not a shitplayer but rather someone who didn't like the game.. and what you implied was that I had to become good at SnR in order to like it. Perhaps you're just not "getting it" or something but shmups exist in all kinds of mediums and allow all kinds of players to play them. If theres something such as a meaningful game in SnR, yet, apparently its unexplained, I would call that poor game design.

[Ed Oscuro]

I don't even like robots.

The feeling is mutual.

[dai jou bu]

Senko is within its own genre

Not really. I remember saying back many moons ago in these forums that Virtual On could be classified as a shmup if it ditched the 3rd person perspective and 3D movement. What we'd get by eliminating these is something that's really close to SnR. Just take a look at any match through the Virtual On's Live Camera and you can see how it starts to look like SnR at certain points when the camera does cooperate.

Virtual On also had SnR-like bosses too, and approaching them like you would a regular opponent would result in a similar fate like in G.Rev's pseudo-spiritual successor.

If theres something such as a meaningful game in SnR, yet, apparently its unexplained, I would call that poor game design.

The mecha mythos alone should compel you to play games like Senko. If you don't dig giant robots, then you probably don't want to experience what the designers of the game had in mind in how controlling one (more specifically a Gundam, since SnR is using VO's mechanics) should feel like.

All of this goes without saying, of course, hence why it's "unexplained," as you put it.

[Enhasa]

No, you're not refraining from namedropping because I'm insecure (which, might I add, makes absolutely no sense in any manner of interpretation), but because you can't think of any to back up your own claim.

No, I meant what I said. Take a seat and pause to soak this in. You like e-drama and arguing so this perspective might be foreign to you.

I don't care what random strangers on the Internet think and if they agree or disagree with what I think (novel concept), and I'm not going out of my way to try to convince anyone of anything, especially someone like you. I'm only posting because I'm writing down what I think. It's a service, sharing knowledge and viewpoints. If people want to read it and consider it, they can. If people want to ignore it (like you), they can. If you want to proclaim that you won an Internet argument, you can.

Since my ideas are already clear in my mind, the only legitimate reason to come up with games and long explanations is if I was arguing or debating (hence, needing to back up claims). It's not a direct translation anyway from the academic world. Games are different and people get wildly different things from the same game, and there isn't easy access like look at page 10 of this paper. In my experience, the only reason anyone ever names lots of games while talking is because they want to convey their obviously high level of knowledge of games (i.e. either being a douchebag or naive about video game analysis or both, like Tim Rogers). Like everyone else, you didn't even make any connections. Formally debating about video games is stupid even if you had the talent to do it. All you did was laundry list A, B, C, D has inertia. I'm secure enough not to have to bother. I'm already pretty sure I have played more games than you, there's no purpose to getting in an e-penis fight.

I'm done talking to you. It's as productive as talking to a brick wall. If you don't want to listen, I certainly don't care. Should have just followed bucklemyshoe's sig and not bothered giving you a chance in the first place.

Ok. The first thing you can try is having enough courtesy to address the people who you are replying to. Second of all I am not a shitplayer but rather someone who didn't like the game.. and what you implied was that I had to become good at SnR in order to like it. Perhaps you're just not "getting it" or something but shmups exist in all kinds of mediums and allow all kinds of players to play them. If theres something such as a meaningful game in SnR, yet, apparently its unexplained, I would call that poor game design.

I originally quoted you and was laughing to your face but I thought it was more courteous not to do it that way. I couldn't come up with anything funnier if I had an entire year.

You don't see the humor in saying "This game controls and plays like shit, how can anyone stand it? It looks nothing like the vids"? You're like a kid who buys a lego set, snaps pieces together at random, notices it's nothing like the picture on the box, and pitches a hissy fit to daddy that legos suck. Most rational people would say "I suck at legos" or "legos aren't for me" or even "I wish legos were easier for newbs like me" or "I hate legos" but you went with "legos suck, how can anyone like them?" Insane kid-like behavior!

Again, I don't give a rat's ass if you like this game or any other game, but what you said was too good. Now I had to ruin it with explanation.

[Elixir]

I have been listening. Haven't ignored anything at all. I've been trying to understand your point of view but apparently I'm not "good enough" for you in order for you to explain yourself clearly. In your mind, where all one persons exist, you think you're right. Perhaps you don't actually read what you write, but the only thing you've been doing is demonstrating, in that mess you call a response, that you're confrontational, defensive, and unable to explain yourself properly.

Instead of just coming out with it, you're saying that you aren't arguing and you don't need to back up your own claims - contradictory to your own posts, which are. While I did a laundry list, it at least backs up my claim. That's more than you can say. Sorry, but "Other games have this factor so it's irrelevant in this game" is a poor way to discredit the merit of the factor. This has nothing about being secure at all, it's just your way of evading. Inertia isn't a completely bad thing but I do think Senko uses way too much of it,

Also, nice "I've played more games than you" dive. Would you also like to tell me that you earn more money and have a better upholding career while you're at it?

Apparently despite knowing a fair deal about Senko, you know nothing of how to represent the game online. This is pretty much a complete waste, since it's one of the most niche titles ever and it could do with a little more respect. When people bring up issues that they have with it, you shove "you don't understand it HOW CAN YOU COMPREHEND THE INTEGRITY OF SUCH A MASTERPIECE?" at them, instead of trying to help them along to get the general idea.

Complaining about inertia is stupid for example, because there's less inertia or gravity than other fighters.

[VorpalEdge]

Senko is like a fighter in that it has a lot of depth that's not immediately apparent. Senko's also like a fighter in that it has a very high initial learning curve. Senko is, however, unlike other fighters in that skill in other fighters does not translate over to Senko easily, whereas it crosses the line between other fighters a lot more readily.

To anyone who says that Senko doesn't have a lot of depth: I'm sorry, but you're wrong. I have no objection to you having complaints about the game; I'm not nearly good enough at it to grasp whether less inertia would be a good idea, for example (although I'm inclined to agree with Enhasa, since he's played the game much more than I). About the only thing I can do in the game is psych people out with Ernula's lasers. However, I know enough to tell that there is depth in there. Even if you don't like the game, please acknowledge this.

I'm not crazy enough to immerse myself in the rest of the topic, so that's all I have to say for now, I think.

[dai jou bu]

Apparently despite knowing a fair deal about Senko, you know nothing of how to represent the game online.

Okay Elixir, you're also getting out of line yourself. Take this quote for example: it wasn't very apparent that you were referring to how to properly discuss this game on a forum, since I completely mistook this phrase as a concern about neglecting to discuss the Xbox 360 port's Netplay.

It's these simple misunderstandings that always get you in trouble.

Anyway, since I started talking about netplay, the last few times I played online the was just bad enough that I had to play the game differently than if I were playing it offline, which is never a good thing. So I stopped playing this game altogether, which kinda sucks.

Also Elixir, we should Polarimetric Dance while wearing plate mail sometime! It'll be fun as I haven't done that in awhile!

[Elixir]

Yeah well I shouldn't have to hack into the matrix just to understand someone's point of view, or get jumped on for asking to clarify.

I played this online with szycag here but yeah, lag was absolutely horrible. Especially against Ernula and Sakurako. Somehow I don't think it's going to change that much but we could give it a go sometime. I wouldn't complain about online lag myself though since it's a problem with all fighters (which is one of the reasons why I don't care for fighting games, despite there being an NZ fighting scene and a huge arcade with about 200 candy cabs here).

[Shelcoof]

When I get this game I better start battling some of you guys

[Zaarock]

Yeah well I shouldn't have to hack into the matrix just to understand someone's point of view, or get jumped on for asking to clarify.

I played this online with szycag here but yeah, lag was absolutely horrible. Especially against Ernula and Sakurako. Somehow I don't think it's going to change that much but we could give it a go sometime. I wouldn't complain about online lag myself though since it's a problem with all fighters (which is one of the reasons why I don't care for fighting games, despite there being an NZ fighting scene and a huge arcade with about 200 candy cabs here).

I found that the lag was handled quite well in the game, for example I who live in finland can play eastern north americans without noticable lag, but japanese and western north american players lag too much for the game to be playable. I think thats a pretty good radius in which people can be fought without noticable lag.

[adversity1]

I played Senko 2 the other day in the arcade and was dissapointed as to how much it played like the first one. Maybe I just 'never got it', but it didn't have enough traction for me. I would like to get it...I just never met anyone who could teach me.

Hopefully when the game gets a full release I'll chat up some players who know what they're doing.

[Enhasa]

Apparently despite knowing a fair deal about Senko, you know nothing of how to represent the game online. This is pretty much a complete waste, since it's one of the most niche titles ever and it could do with a little more respect. When people bring up issues that they have with it, you shove "you don't understand it HOW CAN YOU COMPREHEND THE INTEGRITY OF SUCH A MASTERPIECE?" at them, instead of trying to help them along to get the general idea.

Complaining about inertia is stupid for example, because there's less inertia or gravity than other fighters.

I didn't really read your post because I'm ignoring user Elixir but lol, thanks for putting your version of what I said next to what I actually said, so people don't get the wrong idea. I write a one-line comment with explanation, you prod with derision and IMAGE MACRO THREATS, I respond with cursing and full explanation, you go off the deep end, I bail because I already gave my explanation and who wants to spend their time talking to Elixir?

There's a reason why nobody likes you, and even random lurkers post to slam you. Hint: it's you. PS there's no reason to respond because I'm done talking to you. I don't care if you insult my momma. I would write a script to auto-ignore all your posts but then the terrorists would have already won!

I played Senko 2 the other day in the arcade and was dissapointed as to how much it played like the first one. Maybe I just 'never got it', but it didn't have enough traction for me. I would like to get it...I just never met anyone who could teach me.

Hopefully when the game gets a full release I'll chat up some players who know what they're doing.

There are very helpful vids (not made by me, of course) in my first post on the first page. I wish Senko 2 innovated more too, but that's usually how it is in the fighter genre, you make incremental changes to not upset the balance.

Edit: Rest of this post (about gamertags) removed upon request.

[Elixir]

I didn't really read your post because I'm ignoring user Elixir but lol, thanks for putting your version of what I said next to what I actually said, so people don't get the wrong idea. I write a one-line comment with explanation, you prod with derision and IMAGE MACRO THREATS, I respond with cursing and full explanation, you go off the deep end, I bail because I already gave my explanation and who wants to spend their time talking to Elixir?

Yeah, I guess your own definition of ignoring somebody is by replying to them with a lengthy response at full force (as described by yourself). You wrote one completely abrupt line and failed to explain yourself then bam, when confronted about it, you go off on a tangent about how I'm not "good enough" to understand the complexity of your meaning. Sorry if I don't understand your Intellectually Deep Game but basically from what I've seen you're pretty much a complete tool and you were never educated in how to detail yourself properly without insulting someone. Great hustle.

Inertia's an issue with this game, and I'm not the only one who has raised it as a concern. People who aren't willing to take the time to find the heart of your Intellectually Deep Game are going to take it for what they see, feel and experience. Since the technical side of Senko isn't actually explained and even the goddamn instruction manual for the US version lacks content, it doesn't surprise me in the least. Games sell on a quick, 5 minute gimmick like Bomberman, Oneechanbara Vortex, or Dynasty Warriors (blow things up and collect items/slash things up and collect items as half naked chicks/kill chinese). If they don't have an immediately adaptable gimmick like this (which is Senko's case), this kind of impression shouldn't be unexpected.

There's a reason why nobody likes you, and even random lurkers post to slam you. Hint: it's you. PS there's no reason to respond because I'm done talking to you. I don't care if you insult my momma. I would write a script to auto-ignore all your posts but then the terrorists would have already won!

Nice try. I mean, I actually paused my music while writing this response. Some troll who was banned and the owner of RockinAndroid which, by the way, never returned to defend himself? That thread's actually pretty funny because nobody else would have spoken out about their bullshit otherwise. I was the only one who created an impact on that thread. I see lots of words, but you've still managed to evade explaining this whole "inertia is irrelevant/stupid" bullshit which you plastered all over the previous page.

Please get over this whole "don't respond because I'm done with you, you're not worth my time" closing statement - I went there three years ago and that phase eventually passed. If I recall correctly you also said the same thing in your previous response, but it seems you just can't help replying. Ironic since yet somehow you're never going to address the real issue here.

All you've done is demonstrate to the entire forum that you have little to no place criticizing other people's posts when your own responses miss the point so fucking hard that they aren't even worth the light of day. At least I have the decency to give you my time - even though I don't really feel like it was deserved, if you're going to make baseless claims, expect to be called out on it. I hope the end result was worth your effort.

[cyprien]

BTW now that there is actual interest in this thread, and I see random mentions here and there, we should get all the GTs of people who would play right now. I have a list of GTs of shmups members from the old thread but that's probably useless right now. Mine is Myrmidon0, Zaarock is Zaarock, and dai jou bu is IaMP. Kiken is UnDef KIK but he hasn't posted in this thread and I don't know if he still plays.

If anyone doesn't want me to list their GT, ask and I will remove, sorry.

My GT is cyprien85. I'd enjoy fighting someone other than the AI and the random Japanese player here and there.

[dai jou bu]

your Intellectually Deep Game

Look, it's not just one person's IDG, okay?

Inertia's an issue with this game, and I'm not the only one who has raised it as a concern... Since the technical side of Senko isn't actually explained and even the goddamn instruction manual for the US version lacks content, it doesn't surprise me in the least. Games sell on a quick, 5 minute gimmick like Bomberman, Oneechanbara Vortex, or Dynasty Warriors (blow things up and collect items/slash things up and collect items as half naked chicks/kill chinese). If they don't have an immediately adaptable gimmick like this (which is Senko's case), this kind of impression shouldn't be unexpected.

This once again falls back to the mecha mythos, which states that piloting one of these machines isn't going to be braindead easy unless all of its actions are directly linked to your brain or something. You're going to be spending a lot of time learning how to first use the interface before learning how to adapt to--

oh screw it. The main reason why people hate the inertia thing it is because nobody's played Virtual On, a game that's never hit mainstream status like Street Fighter II has, which has become the standard template for just about every fighting game out there. Same goes for any other competitive genre in the past decade or so whose community has influenced the industry enough that the developers have incentive to keep cranking out games based on these design formulas.

Then people run into a game like this, think it plays like something they've tried before, and become frustrated because the only other game that bears the closest resemblence to this title's game mechanics comes from a series whose legacy is well-known amongst the highly gaming-literate who will be MORE THAN HAPPY to demonstrate to anyone who says it isn't awesome. These frustrated gamers won't spend much time trying to learn its intricacies since there's no real place for them to find like-minded people to play this game in English and practice what they've learned compared to the Guilty Gear/Starcraft/Counterstrike/(insert overhyped game here) communites which are much larger and easier to find.

Also, one final thing:

If anyone doesn't want me to list their GT, ask and I will remove, sorry.

You should've said that before you listed the names of people you did know. I personally don't want my gamertag running around like that, and it's too late to reverse the damage done at this point.