RayCrisis & nature/science defying elements in Shooters.

[nimitz]

Your idea is plausible I guess, but still not a smart design for a spacecraft at all. Also, while we're on space flight, ships in space-based shmups also have engines constantly ignited even for maintaining constant velocity. Realistically they would only fire the main engines when moving up the screen (in a vert), and fire retrorockets in the forward direction when moving back down the screen.

But many ships in shmups are both airplanes and spaceships, so in that case it makes sense to design it with wings and such characteristics of a real airplane.

Also you could explain the need for constant thrust in space to compensate for the reverse momentum given by firing forward.

Finally, homing lasers are not totally impossible, they could in fact be guided, non-explosive missiles with very hot ionized particles around them to use as piercing weapons. ^_~

[ST Dragon]

Raystorm's story & premise is entirely different from Rayforce's, so I don't think it could be considered a 3D remake. In Storm the governments of colonised planets mutiny against Earth, with the player leading a counterattack on Earth's behalf. Force tells of a last-ditch attack on Earth by exiled humans, after its complete takeover by the Con-Human AI fought in Crisis.

I'd like to know if there's any official word on Storm's place in the series, though... is it a self-contained story that just happens to re-use the R-Grey fighters (for brand recognition + gameplay continuity)? Or maybe it takes place before even Crisis, explaining the ship's presence in later events? Seems unlikely to occur after Force for certain reasons.

edit: Sorry PCEFX, misread your post. Yeah, I think of Raystorm as a spinoff rather than a remake or sequel in the Rayforce + Raycrisis story. It's a trilogy in gameplay only, as far as I know.

Thanks for clairification of the Ray series, Bill. I'd have to say that Taito sure knows how to throw a monkey wrench with it. So then a perhaps another prequel or sequel to Raystorm would the next logical step to continue on with the story if Raystorm is regarded as a spinoff game title. ^_~

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Taito never were clear about this game being a "Gaiden", an unrelated game, or whatever. At any case: Earth and Secilia are at war because the motherland abused the colony, and now the colony wants to enslave back their oppressors. During the war, Earth is damaged by a shower of meteorites thrown by Secilia's army, and this makes the Earth forces send a strike force to destroy Secilia. You basically start from Earth, go into orbit and fight the invading fleet, then warp into Secilia, penetrate into its core to fight Judas, the central core.

RayStorm’s story line is one of my favorite as there are various references to Rome and Carthage's wars (Punic Wars). You land on the Ethruria region of Secilia...now, "Ethruria" was the old name of Tuscany, which was part of the Roman provinces, during the said wars. Earth is invaded and bombarded by the Secilian army and was nearly defeated, similarly as when Hannibal invaded Italy in order to conquer Rome and nearly succeeded after numerous victories. Carthage is the name of the base of the colony’s home planet and gets totally destroyed at the end of the game, same as Carthage was at the end of the 3rd Punic Wars.

Also, the names of the Bosses used in RayStorm were those of the enemies of the Roman Empire.

Official:

St. 1: Pendragon
St. 2: Vercingetorix
St. 3: Zenobia
St. 4: Hannibal
St. 5: Genseric
St. 6: Alaric
St. 7: Spartacus, then Yggdrasil (a reference to the Norse belief system of the Gothic tribes, whose leaders included Genseric of the Vandals and Alaric of the Visigoths)

[kengou]

But many ships in shmups are both airplanes and spaceships, so in that case it makes sense to design it with wings and such characteristics of a real airplane.

Also you could explain the need for constant thrust in space to compensate for the reverse momentum given by firing forward.

Very good point

[sunburstbasser]

I've found one game that did thrusters a bit different.

Darius Force-SNES

Move forward, and the thruster will get a little larger for a moment. Move backwards, and it'll shut off.

Fake things? Was it Strikers 1945 that sent your piston-powered aircraft to the moon? I don't think that would work well!

[ST Dragon]

I faintly remember the 1945 planes being equiped with a pair of rocket boosters at some point, but I could be wrong.

[BIL]

I've found one game that did thrusters a bit different.

Darius Force-SNES

Move forward, and the thruster will get a little larger for a moment. Move backwards, and it'll shut off.

RefleX does this too, iirc.

[Ed Oscuro]

In almost every single Shoot Em up we see various fictional and sci-fi elements and rarely bother to check on their scientific aspect or possible validity.

Infinite ammo and fuel, no inertia, and no need to vent heat from any weapons. GAMEOVA

[Ed Oscuro]

umm no it doesnt, there is no use for rudders on a spacecraft.. the only "realistic" movement in a space shmup i can think of is steam hearts which has that 8-way thruster boost to move your ship around..

Sorry, I didn't explain it clearly. Here's what I mean

In order for that to work, the ship would also need thrusters on the top/bottom of each wing, because there wouldn't be any flaps or ailerons to roll the craft (no air in space).

u forgot gyroscopes

n0ob

Of course the depiction in most shmupz is indeed that of a plane rolling in an atmosphere, and they seem to have some resistance to this invisible air.

If the great minds behind SpaceWar! and Moon Lander and the Star Trek game didn't have shmupz stolened by the Japanese, we wouldn't have this topic and everything would be guided by SCIENCE.

Instead we have shmups and Dungeons and Dragons.

Also, stupid topic, no offense; a few interesting points raised though.

[ST Dragon]

In almost every single Shoot Em up we see various fictional and sci-fi elements and rarely bother to check on their scientific aspect or possible validity.

Infinite ammo and fuel, no inertia, and no need to vent heat from any weapons. GAMEOVA

and fuel

If these space crafts are nuclear fusion powered, they wouldn't need refueling for a century.

Infinite ammo

Again, if there is a main fusion reactor at work and the primary weapons are energy based projectiles (Not vulcan bullets), the space ship would be able to constantly fire them without depleting, for the whole length of the campaign / missions.

no inertia

Project X tried that and failed miserably imo. I have yet to see a shooter that incorporated inertia in a realistic but gameplay friendly way.

and no need to vent heat from any weapons.

Please define?

[Shocky]

Hold on, what was that other thread that also tried to reality check shmups? Now that was the thread ever!

Project X tried that and failed miserably imo. I have yet to see a shooter that incorporated inertia in a realistic but gameplay friendly way.

I guess that's not gonna happen in 2d-shooters, luckily. Or have there been games with an Asteroids-type of control, but with autoscrolling and other shmup defining elements? An idea worth experimenting, at least.

Or maybe some lock-on system that could make it a bit easier, like one could lock onto enemies, spin around them firing, and changing lock to another enemy while constantly being affected by inertia and gravitation, and possibly multiple lock-ons at the same time. Something like Bionic Commando meets Asteroids meets Gyruss, but with auto-scrolling... hmm..

There has been good use of _temporary_ inertia or gravitation, like that one boss in ThunderForce VI or R-Type Final stage 5, where changing ship speed causes distortion in visibility and the boss attracts/repulses the player's ship with gravitational fields. Or the Gradius game Gopher no yabou Episode II, stage 3, where gravitation can push or suck the player to crash with the ground or enemies.

What about Gyruss then? The ship is flying towards a planet. That is a kind of autoscrolling.. anyway, most shmups take place near planets and other large objects which should have gravity. Is the mass of a one-manned fighter so insignificant, that the gravity doesn't affect so much? There was this ancient 3D space called Warhead that did this very well, but let's just assume that in shmups the ship's computers calculate automatically the compensation needed from thrusters to tackle the inertia, so the player can just relax and dodge lasers.. which do seem oddly slow!

[ST Dragon]

Very interesting points.

I just remembered, Fly Harder on the AMIGA featured realistic inertia and gravity effects back in 1993. Very fun albeit hard game, well designed graphics and excellent music.

[Ed Oscuro]

and fuel

If these space crafts are nuclear fusion powered, they wouldn't need refueling for a century.

Not so fast. Most ion / electric reactors have a very low thrust:weight ratio, and lots of designs have been for long-term spaceflights, unwieldy hydrogen scoops and the like, so you're liable to be becalmed (in a sense) in the Gradius No Hydrogen Zone. Antimatter would be a better choice. Still, find the safe spot and infinite fuel lol

Again, if there is a main fusion reactor at work and the primary weapons are energy based projectiles (Not vulcan bullets), the space ship would be able to constantly fire them without depleting, for the whole length of the campaign / missions.

Yeah, energy weapons aren't classified as ammo dude.

Energy weapons are in trouble because you need to vent all that excess heat. Think about the spaceship from 2001, with the big backbone - in Arthur C. Clarke's original design, the thing had stubby sails all along the length of that for dispersing heat.

Even the Space Shuttle needs to vent the heat generated by the crewmembers.

no inertia

Project X tried that and failed miserably imo. I have yet to see a shooter that incorporated inertia in a realistic but gameplay friendly way.[/quote]
That's because it can't be done in the sense that we expect it. I think the only way it makes any gameplay sense is if your success at dodging obstacles is not a one-hit-kill issue and possibly if it's weighted against other ships - think a Codemasters rally racer. Maybe a Spy Hunter type game could do it.

But inertia is fundamentally the enemy of quick movement, so the two can't be reconciled. Although I sort of enjoyed Axelay.

Cool shit pastel graphics without definition (okay, in the first two images) and ripped-off Slap Fight lapel on those Fly Harder screens, btw. The ship design is cool, but it ain't no Major Stryker.

[Gespenst]

Raystorm's story & premise is entirely different from Rayforce's, so I don't think it could be considered a 3D remake. In Storm the governments of colonised planets mutiny against Earth, with the player leading a counterattack on Earth's behalf. Force tells of a last-ditch attack on Earth by exiled humans, after its complete takeover by the Con-Human AI fought in Crisis.

I'd like to know if there's any official word on Storm's place in the series, though... is it a self-contained story that just happens to re-use the R-Grey fighters (for brand recognition + gameplay continuity)? Or maybe it takes place before even Crisis, explaining the ship's presence in later events? Seems unlikely to occur after Force for certain reasons.

edit: Sorry PCEFX, misread your post. Yeah, I think of Raystorm as a spinoff rather than a remake or sequel in the Rayforce + Raycrisis story. It's a trilogy in gameplay only, as far as I know.

Thanks for clairification of the Ray series, Bill. I'd have to say that Taito sure knows how to throw a monkey wrench with it. So then a perhaps another prequel or sequel to Raystorm would the next logical step to continue on with the story if Raystorm is regarded as a spinoff game title. ^_~
PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Taito never were clear about this game being a "Gaiden", an unrelated game, or whatever. At any case: Earth and Secilia are at war because the motherland abused the colony, and now the colony wants to enslave back their oppressors. During the war, Earth is damaged by a shower of meteorites thrown by Secilia's army, and this makes the Earth forces send a strike force to destroy Secilia. You basically start from Earth, go into orbit and fight the invading fleet, then warp into Secilia, penetrate into its core to fight Judas, the central core.

RayStorm’s story line is one of my favorite as there are various references to Rome and Carthage's wars (Punic Wars). You land on the Ethruria region of Secilia...now, "Ethruria" was the old name of Tuscany, which was part of the Roman provinces, during the said wars. Earth is invaded and bombarded by the Secilian army and was nearly defeated, similarly as when Hannibal invaded Italy in order to conquer Rome and nearly succeeded after numerous victories. Carthage is the name of the base of the colony’s home planet and gets totally destroyed at the end of the game, same as Carthage was at the end of the 3rd Punic Wars.

Also, the names of the Bosses used in RayStorm were those of the enemies of the Roman Empire.

Official:

St. 1: Pendragon
St. 2: Vercingetorix
St. 3: Zenobia
St. 4: Hannibal
St. 5: Genseric
St. 6: Alaric
St. 7: Spartacus, then Yggdrasil (a reference to the Norse belief system of the Gothic tribes, whose leaders included Genseric of the Vandals and Alaric of the Visigoths)

So the events that take place in Raystorm, are they considered a three-dimensional spin-off on the 2-D events that take place in RayForce?

If the events in RayCrisis take place before RayForce, do the events in Raystorm follow after what is shown in RayForce? If that is so, then Ray Storm would be considered the "final" chapter in the Ray series.

Or is it that RayForce is a wholly story unto itself (with RayStorm being just another 3-D interpetation of what takes place in RayForce)? Taito sure knows how to mess with shmuppers' heads in screwing the chronological timeline of the Ray series. ^_~

I was stunned to see the ending of RayCrisis that lead to the start of RayForce...I was hoping to see some sort of grand finale conclusion to the entire Ray series as a befitting end but Taito decided to spin things around.

Isn't Earth blown out in the end of RF?
Wait, Raystorm is in AD 2219 or whatever, Rayforce is about MC (Millenium Calendar?) 0123 , 3 September (Operation Meteor in the ending?), and Rayforce is in MC (Millenium Calendar?) 0185, 24 December (hence the ending says), so it's possible Raystorm takes place before Raycrisis

If these space crafts are nuclear fusion powered, they wouldn't need refueling for a century.

Agreed. That's the closest possibility

umm no it doesnt, there is no use for rudders on a spacecraft.. the only "realistic" movement in a space shmup i can think of is steam hearts which has that 8-way thruster boost to move your ship around..

...Retro Thursters? (think XII Stag's player ships)
edit: Border Down's craft (Antares?) have that, too.

It would be interesting to see if a fourth Ray game could be made...or has Taito always envisioned it's Ray shmup series as a trilogy from the beginning of conception?

R-Gear?
BTW, guess what I got

and these


(could somebody translate these?)
looks like it trying to mention what Con Human doing toward the Earth

[Klatrymadon]

Glad somebody else had noticed that theme, Bill! Metal Black's sphere happens to be featured in one of my all-time favourite stages. I'd really like to know who it is at Taito that has this excellent obsession.

[BIL]

Ha, I just saw recently that G-Darius has a ruined Bernal Sphere too (in the "Gravity Zero" zone). Really haunting sight, aren't they?

[Klatrymadon]

Oh aye, and I imagine a functional one could be a powerfully alienating, depressing and carnivalesque place to live, as badass as they are in concept.

[Iaspis]

No air in outer space equals no sound. Every space themed game fails at that. Then again, who would enjoy a silent shmup?

[Thunder Force]

No air in outer space equals no sound. Every space themed game fails at that.

Dead Space (PS3/360/PC) recently did some neat things with this.

[nZero]

Ha, I just saw recently that G-Darius has a ruined Bernal Sphere too (in the "Gravity Zero" zone). Really haunting sight, aren't they?

Bernal Sphere, or O'Neill Cylinder? Seems like most shoot'em up games with a space colony borrowed heavily from Mobile Suit Gundam and used the latter.

[BIL]

Hmm, looks like you're right. Taito's renditions seem to be based on O'Neill's "Island" vision of a space colony. The progression from Bernal's original design to O'Neill's is interesting, I had no idea the concept dated back to the 1920s.

The aforementioned Zone Zeta from G-Darius, my favourite shooter rendition. Incredible atmosphere in that stage (thanks in no small part to OGR).

[Shatterhand]

There's one game that, IMO, uses inertia to enhance its gameplay: Exerion.

The game has some heavy inertia, but it was clearly designed to be that way.

[ST Dragon]

This floating habitat is pretty nature defying as it is, so it could be used in a marine / aquatic level of a shooter quite nicely.
Doesn't the 1st stage in G-Darius feature something similar by the way?...



http://vincent.callebaut.org/page1-img-lilypad2.html