Playing with a gamepad ?

[PROMETHEUS]

I don't think I agree with this article, I kind of understand the argument that says "Anatomically speaking, the wrist and forearm can be moved much more quickly and accurately than individual fingers and thumbs" but I think that argument is not enough to prove the superiority of joysticks in all situations. For example with a pad, your thumb doesn't really have to move much at all on the D-Pad, so you can do something like left-right-left-right-left-right really quickly. Maybe quicker than with your full hand on a joystick ? At least that's how it feels to me and that's what I'm seeing when I watch replays made with a pad compared to replays made with a joystick. And with a keyboard of course, you don't have to move your fingers at all so that's not a problem.

Also there is this bad argument in the end of the article that makes me think it's not very serious : "In fact, when you think about it, the joystick is like a mouse restricted to a small, resetting area." This is pretty obviously wrong, the mouse restricted to this "small, resetting area" would be able to move nearly instantly from one point to any other reachable point, whereas the joystick has a set speed.

[bcelmo]

regarding the mouse argument in the article i personally think that a mouse will be the easiest control method for any type of vertical STG. I know that prolly i am commiting a sacrilege just by thinking that and stating it here, however take the example of La Soeur de Barrage. It`s not a bad game, it`s not an easy game, and the mouse control scheme is awesome. I enjoyed that control scheme far more than any other until now.
This is the game for those who don`t know it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCNbdkQ7o-A

There was in the past another game called Tyrian which was not exactly hard but i finished it on the hardest setting by controlling my ship with a mouse.
IMO mouse is better than any other controller. I look at Mushihimesama or DoDonPachi superplays and i think to myself that i could play exactly like those uber dudes there if i was given a mouse. The mouse would be almost cheating.
Is there any mouse controll plugin or something for Mame or any other arcade emulator? If there is one and i am able to play play Esp.Ra.De with it i will actually try to prove it

[PROMETHEUS]

Of course the mouse would make STGs much easier, but it's definitely cheating since you can move at whatever speed you want at any given time. So basically it's not compatible at all with any MAME shooters, even if a plugin was available.

[bcelmo]

I agree
However if a game were designed in such a way as to make it a challenge despite the easy control scheme than i actually think the game would be much more enjoyable than standard shmups. I hope that the japanese devs will pick up the idea some day

[PROMETHEUS]

I think it would be even harder for beginners to start enjoying the games, they're already underground enough as they are now! Playing with a mouse could make pattern reading / navigating a little more complicated and maybe a little more interesting (?), but I think we would face many problems also.

For example, when your speed can be increased by a lot at any time, how is the player supposed to know where he should be looking in a pattern ? Since he could be nearly anywhere in the next second, maybe a better path will randomly open up on the opposite side of the screen. But a player cannot scan the whole screen at the same time, he looks at a very particular place depending on the pattern, so as to know what's coming at him in the area he's currently occupying or will be occupying in the next few seconds. In this case, the mouse opens up possibilities that can't always be exploited, or the player would have to rely partly on luck to exploit them.

The worst side of the problem is making interesting level design such as seen in Cave games, with a cool and fun scoring system. If the player can just move instantly from one part of the screen to the other in a game like Ketsui for example, that means the player is gonna have to try and instantly point blank some enemies that he couldn't point blank otherwise just before they die. How about the crazy stupid bullet herding that would become possible ? Go to the top left of the screen to herd bullets away just half a second before that big enemy appears in the top left, and instantly move to bottom left, having herd everything away to the top... There are probably very few ways of preventing the players from doing that kind of stupid stuff.

It's something that would have to be studied carefully, but I don't think it's worth it, because 1) it would make the genre even less attractive to casual players / beginners, 2) it probably wouldn't add much fun and skill value to the games, maybe even not add any at all.

[glitch]

It's possible to rapidly transfer any necessary amount of force with a lot of control when all of the hand/fingers/wrist are usable. Combine short throw with very clear directions (and clicking feedback also) and it's really not that different from a keyboard.

Pads on the other hand don't make sense to me, though I realize people get good with them. I just can't get comfortable with using only my weak little thumb when I have my whole hand available.

http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/pad.html

Anatomically speaking, the wrist and forearm can be moved much more quickly and accurately than individual fingers and thumbs. Try moving your thumb from neutral to the various directions in a small sized area. Then try moving your entire hand in a near fist in the various directions on a bit larger scale. Which is faster, less awkward, and more responsive and accurate?

For what it's worth.

ok, great. that makes sense. i find these differences interesting.
when i play with a stick i tend to hold it between my thumb and index finger and push it around softly. i guess i'm doing it wrong. ^_^
i often have sticks not registering my input cause i'm not pushing far/hard enough...

wondering if preference for sticks correlates with more forceful handling of input devices, and preference for pads with more gentle handling. maybe a bit of an introvert/extrovert thing? it sounds like stick players play more... expressively.

one thing in that article i can totally relate to:

The same kind of comparisons can be made between the buttons on a held controller and those on a joystick panel. On a held controller, you are again adjusting your thumb to various locations, while on a joystick panel you are able to dedicate multiple fingers to various buttons, much more capable of pressing multiple buttons at the same or near same time. It’s like comparing typing with only your index fingers versus typing with all your fingers.

which is why i map shot to R, bomb to L, and rapid to a face button, usually.
on sticks i lose track of which button is where, without the ergonomic landmarks of a pad.

[PROMETHEUS]

ok, great. that makes sense. i find these differences interesting.
when i play with a stick i tend to hold it between my thumb and index finger and push it around softly. i guess i'm doing it wrong. ^_^
i often have sticks not registering my input cause i'm not pushing far/hard enough...

I don't really know how to play with a joystick myself, but a pretty good fighter player told me it had to be handled like you're saying, and not using the whole hand like I do myself or most people do intuitively when they start learning. It's supposed to be much more precise to push it around softly with 1/2 fingers at the base, according to him.

The same kind of comparisons can be made between the buttons on a held controller and those on a joystick panel. On a held controller, you are again adjusting your thumb to various locations, while on a joystick panel you are able to dedicate multiple fingers to various buttons, much more capable of pressing multiple buttons at the same or near same time. It’s like comparing typing with only your index fingers versus typing with all your fingers.

which is why i map shot to R, bomb to L, and rapid to a face button, usually.
on sticks i lose track of which button is where, without the ergonomic landmarks of a pad.

Yeah, that's an obvious superiority of joysticks and keyboards over pads, moving your thumb around to get to the buttons is not quite the most accurate way to use shot / autoshot / bomb... Then again, some games only use 2 buttons (like Dodonpachi), and then I don't think it matters at all because your thumb doesn't really move at all between only 2 buttons on a pad.

[Icarus]

Yeah, that's an obvious superiority of joysticks and keyboards over pads, moving your thumb around to get to the buttons is not quite the most accurate way to use shot / autoshot / bomb... Then again, some games only use 2 buttons (like Dodonpachi), and then I don't think it matters at all because your thumb doesn't really move at all between only 2 buttons on a pad.

Depends on how you configure the pad. On a Saturn pad, I always have Shot as B, Bomb as Y and Rapid on the R-trigger, and it's the most comfortable setup I've ever used.

I do have a Hori RAP v1, but I don't use it as I don't have a sturdy base to rest the stick on at the moment.

[PROMETHEUS]

Depends on how you configure the pad. On a Saturn pad, I always have Shot as B, Bomb as Y and Rapid on the R-trigger, and it's the most comfortable setup I've ever used.

yeah that makes sense also, I guess pads are perfectly fine when configured properly then.

[DMC]

Depends on how you configure the pad. On a Saturn pad, I always have Shot as B, Bomb as Y and Rapid on the R-trigger, and it's the most comfortable setup I've ever used.

I use almost the same. Shot=Y, Bomb=B, and Rapid=R. I try to configure every shooter the same way so I always know automatically what to do when I need to bomb. Your configure sounds interesting though, think I'll try it.

[freddiebamboo]

Depends on how you configure the pad. On a Saturn pad, I always have Shot as B, Bomb as Y and Rapid on the R-trigger, and it's the most comfortable setup I've ever used.

I use almost the same. Shot=Y, Bomb=B, and Rapid=R. I try to configure every shooter the same way so I always know automatically what to do when I need to bomb. Your configure sounds interesting though, think I'll try it.

I'm slightly different, Shot = A, Rapid = B and Bomb = X.

[DMC]

freddiebamboo: I can see the advantage of using only the thumb as I guess you do, but is'nt it awkward bombing when holding rapid button then?

[freddiebamboo]

freddiebamboo: I can see the advantage of using only the thumb as I guess you do, but is'nt it awkward bombing when holding rapid button then?

If I have the option, I map bomb to Y, Z and C for ultra panic availability, but I tend to hold the B rapid with the join of my thumb and so can hit A or X quite easily with the pad of my thumb.

[Limbrooke]

Depends on how you configure the pad. On a Saturn pad, I always have Shot as B, Bomb as Y and Rapid on the R-trigger, and it's the most comfortable setup I've ever used.

I use almost the same. Shot=Y, Bomb=B, and Rapid=R. I try to configure every shooter the same way so I always know automatically what to do when I need to bomb. Your configure sounds interesting though, think I'll try it.

I'm slightly different, Shot = A, Rapid = B and Bomb = X.

I have the most boring of all. A - shot, B - bomb (usually), C - option...whoops.

Sometimes for specific rapid fire I setup the next nearest button directly above for auto of that type. Usually I just use R to toggle rapid on or off. Seems to work well enough in the few games where you'd need to switch between rapid and normal. If anything it's fighting games where I switch it up where for Street Fighter related matters I have kick assigned to XYZ and punch to ABC. I find I use punches more often and it's easier to hit the bottom row more accurately thanks in part to button size.

As for the Saturn pad in general, I don't think I've ever felt more competent or capable with one of these in my hands compared to any other controller. I don't mind using a stick but my weapon of choice would be this. The rest is up to the emulator to not induce input lag and or for the magnetic pad to wear out, both of which have happened to me in the time I've used a Saturn USB pad.

[jpj]

It's just going to kill you when you're trying to make direction changes too fast.

i don't have problems switching directions with an arcade stick.

perhaps the problem lies with which actual sticks you have tried using? the throw distance of a sanwa JLF is greater than say a seimitsu LS-32. if you have concerns that you can't go instantaneously from triggering one microswitch to another, you can also mod the shafts of arcade sticks for this purpose, and akhibarashop has some interesting videos on youtube, if you're interested

[PROMETHEUS]

It's just going to kill you when you're trying to make direction changes too fast.

i don't have problems switching directions with an arcade stick.

perhaps the problem lies with which actual sticks you have tried using? the throw distance of a sanwa JLF is greater than say a seimitsu LS-32. if you have concerns that you can't go instantaneously from triggering one microswitch to another, you can also mod the shafts of arcade sticks for this purpose, and akhibarashop has some interesting videos on youtube, if you're interested

Yeah that's very possible, I think most of the sticks I've played with were sanwa. I don't really care about modding though, I don't think I'll ever switch from keyboard to joystick. If I ever buy a PCB later, which is unlikely, I'd rather get a keyboard hacked to play with it.