Gradius Rebirth (WiiWare)

[kengou]

It constantly amazes me how many people on a board for 10-20 year old 2D games (that are entirely about gameplay over flashy graphics) can be so picky about graphics all the time. It's a NEW GRADIUS GAME! Why does anyone care if it's 2D or 2.5D or 3D or has friggin' bump mapping and dynamic light sources with pixel shader 5.0, or if the game has low-res sprites (just like 4/5 of the main games had!)

[Ed Oscuro]

Not that I agree, but: Because the artistic part is half the reason anybody pays for commercial games in an age of Flash and homebrew/doujins. If they're going to make us pay for the same old artwork over and over, from the shmupper's standpoint they might as well go the Athena route and release a Dezaemon-style game and let us make our own levels

It's also indicative of the lack of attention the genre seems to merit from a purely financial consideration. On that I can't blame them, but I can't credit them with being very forward-thinking either (it would be hilarious if Sega's self-proclaimed shmups revival meets with success).

This is a WiiWare game so they have the development cost carefully balanced against the expected return. It would be ridiculous to give this game TV ads, and for the same reason we shouldn't be too upset that it's reusing graphics.

If this were an all-stops-out major release or a "shooting revival" like Sega is claiming to be attempting, then more detailed graphics might be considerable.

It should be remembered that Konami recently released lots of rather lazily made Castlevania games lately (along with some good ones) with poor graphics and by-the-numbers level design and programming, and those did well. Meanwhile they've released Contra 4 which has excellent graphics but may not have performed up to expectations (on that I'm not sure).

[Frederik]

It constantly amazes me how many people on a board for 10-20 year old 2D games (that are entirely about gameplay over flashy graphics) can be so picky about graphics all the time.

Yeah. I think the screenie looks sweet. Not that there is that much to it, but it reminds me of Gaiden and that´s awesome by itself.

Gradius 4 was already Gradius Rebirth.

Only that Gradius 4 sucked. How they could manage to make a game so bland after Gaiden is beyond me. But then again, III was a massive letdown after II, so there´s no strict logic to it I guess...

[BIL]

If it has Gaiden's creativity, variety and excellent pacing, I won't mind those graphics one bit. Or even Gradius V's Types. Hopefully it's not just "Gradius I Retro Tyme."

[-Bridget-]

I, personally, dont really give a fart about the graphics myself. Isnt what I play shmups for.


I'd be totally fine with graphics done in the style of the old NES titles.


As long as this isnt just a remake, and as long as it plays well, this one will get my money, no doubt about it.

[Necronom]

It constantly amazes me how many people on a board for 10-20 year old 2D games (that are entirely about gameplay over flashy graphics) can be so picky about graphics all the time. It's a NEW GRADIUS GAME! Why does anyone care if it's 2D or 2.5D or 3D or has friggin' bump mapping and dynamic light sources with pixel shader 5.0, or if the game has low-res sprites (just like 4/5 of the main games had!)

Maybe because not everybody is living in the past. Gradius V and Thunderforce VI are good examples how to do it right. There are enough Gradius tribute freeware games out there already.

http://www.indiegames.com/blog/articles ... 2007&gid=6

[kengou]

It constantly amazes me how many people on a board for 10-20 year old 2D games (that are entirely about gameplay over flashy graphics) can be so picky about graphics all the time. It's a NEW GRADIUS GAME! Why does anyone care if it's 2D or 2.5D or 3D or has friggin' bump mapping and dynamic light sources with pixel shader 5.0, or if the game has low-res sprites (just like 4/5 of the main games had!)

Maybe because not everybody is living in the past. Gradius V and Thunderforce VI are good examples how to do it right. There are enough Gradius tribute freeware games out there already.

http://www.indiegames.com/blog/articles ... 2007&gid=6

Living in the past? What's wrong with 2D games? Is there some rule that all new games have to be 3D? I mean I liked Gradius V as much as anyone and it looked great, but what the hell's wrong with 2D sprites? If the game plays well then that's all that matters. I mean seriously, I play shmups every single day and the vast majority have 2D sprites. How am I "living in the past" when I'm playing 2D games every day? Is DDP DFK living in the past because it doesn't have 3D graphics, even though it came out THIS YEAR? By that very fact it's a "modern game."

[Strider77]

This looks cute and all... I'll play it for sure. still it in no way kills my craving for Gradius 6 on a PS3 that's NOT some download and on a disc. A big boy version...

I want to see what a next gen hori looks like in HD/wide screen and visuals on par with the current standards.

[Necronom]

It constantly amazes me how many people on a board for 10-20 year old 2D games (that are entirely about gameplay over flashy graphics) can be so picky about graphics all the time. It's a NEW GRADIUS GAME! Why does anyone care if it's 2D or 2.5D or 3D or has friggin' bump mapping and dynamic light sources with pixel shader 5.0, or if the game has low-res sprites (just like 4/5 of the main games had!)

Maybe because not everybody is living in the past. Gradius V and Thunderforce VI are good examples how to do it right. There are enough Gradius tribute freeware games out there already.

http://www.indiegames.com/blog/articles ... 2007&gid=6

Living in the past? What's wrong with 2D games? Is there some rule that all new games have to be 3D? I mean I liked Gradius V as much as anyone and it looked great, but what the hell's wrong with 2D sprites? If the game plays well then that's all that matters. I mean seriously, I play shmups every single day and the vast majority have 2D sprites. How am I "living in the past" when I'm playing 2D games every day? Is DDP DFK living in the past because it doesn't have 3D graphics, even though it came out THIS YEAR? By that very fact it's a "modern game."

Nothing wrong with 2D and nothing wrong with sprites, though the comparison with DDP is pretty lame because qualitywise the graphics are worlds apart. It's just frustrating that Konami prefers to waste resources on a pseudo-retro rehash instead of doing something fresh and original like Namco's Galaga Legions for example. Same crap with Mega Man 9...

[Frederik]

It's just frustrating that Konami prefers to waste resources on a pseudo-retro rehash instead of doing something fresh and original like Namco's Galaga Legions for example. Same crap with Mega Man 9...

A new 2D Gradius. WHAT A WASTE OF RESOURCES!

If you want something fresh and new, Konami is doing ANOTHER shooter called Otomedius that has all the fresh and original ideas like a touch screen and ugly polygons. I really don´t see your point here.

Also, wtf is "pseudo-retro" about doing another sprite based Gradius?

[orange]

god damn

can't konami just contract treasure to do a gradius VI for them it'll be 100000000000000x better than this shit

[Frederik]

god damn

can't konami just contract treasure to do a gradius VI for them it'll be 100000000000000x better than this shit

And certainly 10000000000000000000000000000000000x better than this post.

Also, please tell us more about this game since you obviously already played it?

[kozo]

Living in the past? What's wrong with 2D games? Is there some rule that all new games have to be 3D? I mean I liked Gradius V as much as anyone and it looked great, but what the hell's wrong with 2D sprites?

Agreed...though I admittedly am living in the past, so take that as you may.

That said, I wouldn't mind Odin Sphere/Ys II Eternal-quality 2D in a few more shmups either.

[KNTain]

I don't really have a problem with the level of tech involved. I just think it looks uglier than Gradius II.

[Necronom]

It's just frustrating that Konami prefers to waste resources on a pseudo-retro rehash instead of doing something fresh and original like Namco's Galaga Legions for example. Same crap with Mega Man 9...

A new 2D Gradius. WHAT A WASTE OF RESOURCES!

If you want something fresh and new, Konami is doing ANOTHER shooter called Otomedius that has all the fresh and original ideas like a touch screen and ugly polygons. I really don´t see your point here.

Also, wtf is "pseudo-retro" about doing another sprite based Gradius?

A 2D Gradius would be nice...BUT done properly which means according to today's commercial standards (Cave). Mega Man 9 (and probably Gradius - Stillbirth...I mean Rebirth) are NOT new 2D titles but 8/16-bit wannabes that can be crapped out fast and cheap.
I'm very sorry that I can't share your ecstasy over this crap

[Frederik]

I sold my Wii so I doubt I will be playing this anytime soon. I´m just wondering how you already know that this is crap and a waste of resources. For a supposed shmup fan you sure are picky as hell. Not every game can be made with the effort Cave or Treasure does it, and in the state the industry is in we can be happy that shmups get some occasional love at ALL.

Besides: All we´ve seen of it is ONE screenshot, and some people already act all butthurt over it and call it garbage. And I didn´t say I´m going crazy over it - it´s way to early for that - but at least I´m enthusiastic. If peoples reaction upon hearing "Gradius Rebirth" and seeing one screenshot of it is "OMG THIS SUCKS", then maybe they should ask themselves if they still enjoy this genre at all.

[Jockel]

i don't think it's as extreme as you say it is, but the difference between this and megaman 9 is- well...
the megaman games went in an absolutely terrible direction with the 2,5D megaman x games. gradius v however did really well in state-of-the-art design and gameplay. it's a little sad that they make it 2D after they proved they can do a lot better. the newer megaman x series (very much like the street fighter EX series) were so bad in most peoples opinion, that nobody wants those games in new design anymore.
that's why i personally think that megaman 9 is fine in retro, but gradius rebirth would be better off with the "new" style.

[Necronom]

I sold my Wii so I doubt I will be playing this anytime soon. I´m just wondering how you already know that this is crap and a waste of resources. For a supposed shmup fan you sure are picky as hell. Not every game can be made with the effort Cave or Treasure does it, and in the state the industry is in we can be happy that shmups get some occasional love at ALL.

Besides: All we´ve seen of it is ONE screenshot, and some people already act all butthurt over it and call it garbage. And I didn´t say I´m going crazy over it - it´s way to early for that - but at least I´m enthusiastic. If peoples reaction upon hearing "Gradius Rebirth" and seeing one screenshot of it is "OMG THIS SUCKS", then maybe they should ask themselves if they still enjoy this genre at all.

Yes, there's only one screenshot. Call me unfair but judging by what Capcom is delivering with Mega Man 9 my guess is this is going to be a very similar "old school experience".
Maybe Nitrome and Cactus should really start charging for their games...

[Frederik]

that's why i personally think that megaman 9 is fine in retro, but gradius rebirth would be better off with the "new" style.

Maybe I´m the wrong person to ask since I think Gaiden blows V straight out of the water in all regards.

Yes, there's only one screenshot. Call me unfair but judging by what Capcom is delivering with Mega Man 9 my guess is this is going to be a very similar "old school experience".
Maybe Nitrome and Cactus should really start charging for their games...

So what´s so bad about this old-school experience? If Megaman 1-8 was fun, why shouldn´t 9 be? If people loved the old Gradius games, why not give them something like that once more? Because it doesn´t "innovate"? There is enough of that floating around right now, up to the point that Nintendo is distancing themselves from their traditional audience, so I´ll gladly take another classic game, "pseudo-retro" or not, if it plays well.

[Jockel]

Unfortunately i didn't play Gaiden- sorry.
But in the End you are of course right, it has got to be _good_ - that's all that matters.

[Frederik]

Unfortunately i didn't play Gaiden- sorry.
But in the End you are of course right, it has got to be _good_ - that's all that matters.

If you have a PSP, it´s on the Gradius Collection. Or try to make sure to watch a superplay of it at least

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9OWX5EdRpc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njsx_fiRUE4

[kozo]

Gaiden is incredible.

I have to say, let's remember this is just WiiWare. As in, cheap and downloadable. And thus it's going to be relatively small and low-budget (generally speaking.)

And it's not Gradius VI, so there's still plenty of space for Konami to make an epic masterpiece too. Just thinking.

And yeah, it's just one pic. Could be very fun.

[Strider77]

If this wound up as good as gaiden that would be huge and pleasant surprise. Some how I don't think that'll be the case.

[320x240]

Beggars can't be choosers but there is no reason for their betters to give out old crumbs only.

[orange]

god damn

can't konami just contract treasure to do a gradius VI for them it'll be 100000000000000x better than this shit

And certainly 10000000000000000000000000000000000x better than this post.

Also, please tell us more about this game since you obviously already played it?

you found me out

[spadgy]

Besides: All we´ve seen of it is ONE screenshot, and some people already act all butthurt over it and call it garbage.

Exactly! Come on - even if it's just a smaller retro-focussed title, it seems unfair to lambaste it based on one screen. Who knows - it might be Konami testing the water for a future Konami release.

OK - that's probably a little unlikely, but I'm just not going to make my mind up too early about an addition to a series I love (unless it is a straight remake...)

EDIT: Spelling

[-Bridget-]

Maybe because not everybody is living in the past. Gradius V and Thunderforce VI are good examples how to do it right. There are enough Gradius tribute freeware games out there already.

http://www.indiegames.com/blog/articles ... 2007&gid=6

Living in the past? What's wrong with 2D games? Is there some rule that all new games have to be 3D? I mean I liked Gradius V as much as anyone and it looked great, but what the hell's wrong with 2D sprites? If the game plays well then that's all that matters. I mean seriously, I play shmups every single day and the vast majority have 2D sprites. How am I "living in the past" when I'm playing 2D games every day? Is DDP DFK living in the past because it doesn't have 3D graphics, even though it came out THIS YEAR? By that very fact it's a "modern game."

Nothing wrong with 2D and nothing wrong with sprites, though the comparison with DDP is pretty lame because qualitywise the graphics are worlds apart. It's just frustrating that Konami prefers to waste resources on a pseudo-retro rehash instead of doing something fresh and original like Namco's Galaga Legions for example. Same crap with Mega Man 9...

Actually, Megaman 9 is a good example of what Kengou is saying here.

Anyone that's seen the screens of the upcoming Megaman 9 knows it looks exactly like the NES games did.

But......

.....honestly; is that really a horrible, horrible thing?

Who cares if the graphics are essentially in 8 bit style..... IF IT PLAYS WELL?

If that game plays as well as the old NES ones always did, it's definitely getting my money; not even a question of that.

And also look at it another way; That sort of thing might really be a specific decision on the part of the devs. Something like: "Wouldnt it be neat if we did this new game, but made it look like the retro ones?".

And you know what? For alot of us, that IS a really neat thing. Hell, for me, that was actually the first thing that grabbed my attention. I've always loved retro games (AND new ones), and this one looks like the thing for me.

And I can say that for Gradius as well.

And one other thing:


Lets not forget the system this is on.

This is the Wii..... specifically, Wiiware.

Nintendo's big thing about space limitation does NOT help developers to make 3D awesomeness. 50 megs, is it? These days, that's a LOW amount of space. Do you really think something like Gradius V's bright shiny 3D-ness would fit into that tiny space?

But that's not all:

Being Wiiware, these are also games that really just dont cost as much as retail titles; as such, they're going to have lower budgets to work with. And 2D sprites are, simply put, SO much easier to deal with.

And considering that the game takes place in a 2D plane ANYWAY, full 3D rendering ISNT NECESSARY.... it adds NOTHING to the gameplay.

A shmup doesnt need shiny, explody graphics to be awesome..... that's just a simple fact.

If someone absolutely, positively has to have super-shiny graphics and pretty things in their shmups, they can go play Touhou.

Me, though, I think I'll stick with what I know will be quality gameplay in this and other, similar games.

Gameplay is all that matters in the end, simple as that.

[Necronom]

"Actually, Megaman 9 is a good example of what Kengou is saying here.

Anyone that's seen the screens of the upcoming Megaman 9 knows it looks exactly like the NES games did.

But......

.....honestly; is that really a horrible, horrible thing?

Who cares if the graphics are essentially in 8 bit style..... IF IT PLAYS WELL?"

Megaman 9 is creative stagnation and backwards thinking at it worst.
To me it's simply sad that people in the industry are going back to making pseudo nes titles because they're not only greedy but also lack the cojones to come up with new designs/ideas.
At the same time it's kinda funny that those commercial products are inferior to so many freeware games which are sometimes even done by one person. If you want to see how a game looks like that keeps the 8/16 bit artstyle while still evolving in the gameplay department you might want to have a closer look at buster's Iwanaga or Nitrome's more casual approach, Dirk Valentine.
Again, the 8bit artstyle is not the main problem...it's the fact that what they're selling here is basically nothing else than a nes rom.

"Do you really think something like Gradius V's bright shiny 3D-ness would fit into that tiny space?"

Huh? Did I ever imply something like this? Don't think so...
The lack of space for dlc is due to Nintendo's lack of vision when it comes to digital distribution. It should be up to them to solve the problem instead of forcing the devs to come up with desperate solutions of their own.
Just don't expect the industry to start working on a proper Gradius game when pseudo nes roms like this are selling.

"Gameplay is all that matters in the end, simple as that."

No, gameplay alone is not all that matters. Otherwise they would SELL rougelikes with ascii characters instead of graphics. For a commercial product it's the whole package that matters and gameplay is the core part of it.

[SeashoreandHorizon]

Maybe they're making this to gear up for Gradius VI

[Klatrymadon]

Megaman 9 is creative stagnation and backwards thinking at it worst.

I think that's being too cynical and dismissive about it, mate. Granted, it wouldn't exist if it wasn't a fairly safe project that's sure to score a lot of easy money from 'retro' gamers, but from what I've heard of Plug Man's stage, the game does sound as though it boasts some incredibly tight and well-considered level design, that could at once make for a more exciting and more thoughtful experience than we enjoyed in the early games. This would still be the most important thing in a big-budget sequel for the PS3. Until Mega Man 9 is released and proves otherwise, we should be entertaining the idea that Inafune and his team might actually be using this surface 'regression' to concentrate on improving the meat 'n' potatoes of MM gameplay...